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No, I absolutely agree. But I do think developers in Germany have it a lot better (from a safety standpoint, work regulations, IP law, etc.pp.) than people in

by wink 10y ago

No, I absolutely agree. But I do think developers in Germany have it a lot better (from a safety standpoint, work regulations, IP law, etc.pp.) than people in the US - it's just that we get paid less (comparing 60-70k EUR vs 120-140k USD as very rough estimate) and there's no hire & fire. My point is that I think that's why we'd be able to peruse the advantages of a union a lot less. As long as the market is so that we can find a new job near instantly. Maybe I'm also blind to our disadvantages (because I live here, but I think many EU countries are comparable) - but that's why I think the 'typical union advantages' are even less prevalent in the US. Addendum: I think the job safety thing is bigger, who can predict if this will be a safe job when most of us readers here (assuming age 20-40) are closer to retirement. Then again I'm not sure unions really help against companies not wanting to hire 50+ people for normal (I.e. non-manager) jobs.

tptacek 10y ago
The opposite is true. The stronger the employment market, the more market power labor has. We can easily get new jobs. But we cannot easily find jobs that satisfy all the points I laid out above. Short exercise periods, for instance, are almost universal among tech startups. Companies can get away with doing that because right now, the interest in fixing that is diffuse, and the interest in maintaining the status quo is concentrated. Straightforward fix: form a professional association, and collectively shun companies that screw over early startup employees with post-vesting clawbacks. We'll see how much longer khaki-clad sweater-bevested VC partners mouth off to the press about disloyal employees when the cost of employing developers for their portfolio companies (and theirs alone) goes up by 40%. The more I think about unionization, the more I think 2016-2017 is an immense opportunity. A Chicagoan I'm not entirely fond of once memorably said: never let a crisis go to waste.
- wink 10y ago
  I'd love to see any numbers on how many "startup employees with stock options" there even are compared to normal salaried employees without any vesting periods. And then compare that to other countries. Maybe that's my point. I don't see myself disagreeing with anything you wrote, yet you seem to take it that way :)
  - tptacek 10y ago
    We don't need to unionize every software developer in the world. If the targets we want to apply pressure to are startups, all we have to unionize are the startups. Sorry if I sound snippy. That happens a lot. The problem is with message boards: they're weighted heavily towards comments that highlight distinctions in point of view. That doesn't mean, in my case at least, that I'm trying to be dismissive.

by wink 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

The opposite is true. The stronger the employment market, the more market power labor has. We can easily get new jobs. But we cannot easily find jobs that satisfy all the points I laid out above. Short exercise periods, for instance, are almost universal among tech startups. Companies can get away with doing that because right now, the interest in fixing that is diffuse, and the interest in maintaining the status quo is concentrated. Straightforward fix: form a professional association, and collectively shun companies that screw over early startup employees with post-vesting clawbacks. We'll see how much longer khaki-clad sweater-bevested VC partners mouth off to the press about disloyal employees when the cost of employing developers for their portfolio companies (and theirs alone) goes up by 40%. The more I think about unionization, the more I think 2016-2017 is an immense opportunity. A Chicagoan I'm not entirely fond of once memorably said: never let a crisis go to waste.

wink 10y ago
I'd love to see any numbers on how many "startup employees with stock options" there even are compared to normal salaried employees without any vesting periods. And then compare that to other countries. Maybe that's my point. I don't see myself disagreeing with anything you wrote, yet you seem to take it that way :)
- tptacek 10y ago
  We don't need to unionize every software developer in the world. If the targets we want to apply pressure to are startups, all we have to unionize are the startups. Sorry if I sound snippy. That happens a lot. The problem is with message boards: they're weighted heavily towards comments that highlight distinctions in point of view. That doesn't mean, in my case at least, that I'm trying to be dismissive.