4 ms·

I guess you haven't built it a decade or so(if ever). It's literally this easy to build: $ git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core $ apt-get

by slacka 10y ago

I guess you haven't built it a decade or so(if ever). It's literally this easy to build: $ git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core $ apt-get build-dep libreoffice $ ./autogen.sh && make With any relatively standard Debian/Ubuntu distro, you can have your own custom build in about an hour or so. Progressive builds just a few min if you have ccache setup.

cesarb 10y ago
Yeah, but that's LibreOffice. The other OpenOffice descendant (Apache OpenOffice) still uses the old build system, and is still very complicated to build as a result; just look how long it took for its developers to release the 4.1.3 version, which was a very minor patch release.
- fermigier 10y ago
  Apache OpenOffice is on life support (at least, was in September, I wonder if the situation has evolved since): https://lwn.net/Articles/699047/ https://lwn.net/Articles/699047/
banachtarski 10y ago
An hour is pretty awful for a word processor. I can build a fully modern 3D engine in half that time. edit: I noticed you typed make. Do you perhaps mean make -j 8 or something (depending on core count)
- IshKebab 10y ago
  I think that a word processor like OpenOffice is significantly more complicated than most 3D engines.
  - dom0 10y ago
    It might be more code, and it surely has a lot of tricky code and shit-to-maintain code (.doc import?!), but I very much doubt it's more complicated. That being said complicatedness has little to do with compile time now, has it? :)
    - agentgt 10y ago
      > It might be more code, and it surely has a lot of tricky code and shit-to-maintain code (.doc import?!), but I very much doubt it's more complicated. There are some articles of Joel Spolsky explaning why office document formats are so complicated (not my word) [1]. The spec for MS doc is like 500 or so pages. The spec is longer than my video game graphics book I had in college. I recommend some research before assuming. > That being said complicatedness has little to do with compile time now, has it? :) Actually there is a correlation [2]. Of course it depends on what you call or think complexity is. Believe it or not engines may not actually be as complex because they typically are based on math formulas or combinations of simple algorithms. Math is often simple and doesn't require lots of branching (if conditions). The algorithms have to be fairly simple anyway otherwise performance would be bad. Buisiness software or actual video games on the other hand are full of branching. NetHack may not have 3D graphics or any graphics but it is an extremely complicated game. [1]: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/02/19/why-are-the-microsoft-office-file-formats-so-complicated-and-some-workarounds/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/02/19/why-are-the-micros... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity
- yrro 10y ago
  It's not just a word processor, but an office suite. So you're also building the spreadsheet, drawing program, presentation program, maths editor, database program...
- Manishearth 10y ago
  An hour makes sense to me. Here's what I can think of off the bat: - Handling fonts. A whole world of hurt. Not all of this can be offloaded to OS libraries. - Handling layout. Another world of hurt. Especially given that many formats have their own quirks. - Handling complicated things like math and svg. - Understanding HTML (for formatted paste and save-as-html to work) - Understanding PDF - Canvas for the shapes and stuff - Codecs and stuff for images and video - General rendering/compositing code - Accessibility code There's a LOT that goes into building software like this. I worked on Microsoft Office as an intern once. The codebase is huge. Build times would be forever without artifact builds. I currently work on browsers, which are in the same situation with a lot of not-immediately-obvious costs.
  - banachtarski 10y ago
    Graphics engines handle fonts. Even more so than a word processor. They have to AA correctly at all viewing angles, textured, upscale, downscale, animate, etc. Layout is in every modern game engine as UI and is even more powerful. See scaleform for example. Math... isn't in a game engine? HTML/PDF and other formats? Please how about DXT1-N texture formats, crunched textures, scene descriptions, meshes, animation rigging, etc. HTML and PDF are small in comparison. Yea I'm not going to continue. What you may not have realized as a MSFT Office intern is that just because it was slow and awful, it might not have necessarily needed to be.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      > What you may not have realized as a MSFT Office intern is that just because it was slow and awful, it might not have necessarily needed to be. It's not just Office. It's also the two browsers I have worked on (a word processor in particular has a lot in common with a web browser, but it also needs to deal with authoring). There are many things that need to be done that aren't immediately obvious. Sure, a graphics engine has such costs too but it's hard to compare unless you're well acquainted with both sides.
    - sanxiyn 10y ago
      Math here means typesetting mathematical formula, which is in word processor and browser, but not in game engine. It's also quite complex.

by slacka 10y ago

cesarb 10y ago

Yeah, but that's LibreOffice. The other OpenOffice descendant (Apache OpenOffice) still uses the old build system, and is still very complicated to build as a result; just look how long it took for its developers to release the 4.1.3 version, which was a very minor patch release.

fermigier 10y ago
Apache OpenOffice is on life support (at least, was in September, I wonder if the situation has evolved since): https://lwn.net/Articles/699047/ https://lwn.net/Articles/699047/

banachtarski 10y ago

An hour is pretty awful for a word processor. I can build a fully modern 3D engine in half that time. edit: I noticed you typed make. Do you perhaps mean make -j 8 or something (depending on core count)

IshKebab 10y ago
I think that a word processor like OpenOffice is significantly more complicated than most 3D engines.
- dom0 10y ago
  It might be more code, and it surely has a lot of tricky code and shit-to-maintain code (.doc import?!), but I very much doubt it's more complicated. That being said complicatedness has little to do with compile time now, has it? :)
  - agentgt 10y ago
    > It might be more code, and it surely has a lot of tricky code and shit-to-maintain code (.doc import?!), but I very much doubt it's more complicated. There are some articles of Joel Spolsky explaning why office document formats are so complicated (not my word) [1]. The spec for MS doc is like 500 or so pages. The spec is longer than my video game graphics book I had in college. I recommend some research before assuming. > That being said complicatedness has little to do with compile time now, has it? :) Actually there is a correlation [2]. Of course it depends on what you call or think complexity is. Believe it or not engines may not actually be as complex because they typically are based on math formulas or combinations of simple algorithms. Math is often simple and doesn't require lots of branching (if conditions). The algorithms have to be fairly simple anyway otherwise performance would be bad. Buisiness software or actual video games on the other hand are full of branching. NetHack may not have 3D graphics or any graphics but it is an extremely complicated game. [1]: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/02/19/why-are-the-microsoft-office-file-formats-so-complicated-and-some-workarounds/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/02/19/why-are-the-micros... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity
yrro 10y ago
It's not just a word processor, but an office suite. So you're also building the spreadsheet, drawing program, presentation program, maths editor, database program...
Manishearth 10y ago
An hour makes sense to me. Here's what I can think of off the bat: - Handling fonts. A whole world of hurt. Not all of this can be offloaded to OS libraries. - Handling layout. Another world of hurt. Especially given that many formats have their own quirks. - Handling complicated things like math and svg. - Understanding HTML (for formatted paste and save-as-html to work) - Understanding PDF - Canvas for the shapes and stuff - Codecs and stuff for images and video - General rendering/compositing code - Accessibility code There's a LOT that goes into building software like this. I worked on Microsoft Office as an intern once. The codebase is huge. Build times would be forever without artifact builds. I currently work on browsers, which are in the same situation with a lot of not-immediately-obvious costs.
- banachtarski 10y ago
  Graphics engines handle fonts. Even more so than a word processor. They have to AA correctly at all viewing angles, textured, upscale, downscale, animate, etc. Layout is in every modern game engine as UI and is even more powerful. See scaleform for example. Math... isn't in a game engine? HTML/PDF and other formats? Please how about DXT1-N texture formats, crunched textures, scene descriptions, meshes, animation rigging, etc. HTML and PDF are small in comparison. Yea I'm not going to continue. What you may not have realized as a MSFT Office intern is that just because it was slow and awful, it might not have necessarily needed to be.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    > What you may not have realized as a MSFT Office intern is that just because it was slow and awful, it might not have necessarily needed to be. It's not just Office. It's also the two browsers I have worked on (a word processor in particular has a lot in common with a web browser, but it also needs to deal with authoring). There are many things that need to be done that aren't immediately obvious. Sure, a graphics engine has such costs too but it's hard to compare unless you're well acquainted with both sides.
  - sanxiyn 10y ago
    Math here means typesetting mathematical formula, which is in word processor and browser, but not in game engine. It's also quite complex.