7 ms·

Apple Removes 'Time Remaining' Battery Life Indicator in Sierra 10.12.2

61 points by hartator 10y ago

hartator 10y ago
> Apple believes that the battery life indicator in macOS Sierra is ultimately inaccurate and has led to some confusion about battery performance, and so it has been removed in macOS Sierra 10.12.2. I think that's the worst possible way to react against the new Macbook pro battery life complaints.
- orclev 10y ago
  Gee, it's not like this is the first time a Apple product problem has been blamed on a faulty formula: https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-Regarding-iPhone-4.html https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple...
- bengale 10y ago
  In fairness, the reports from this update are that they actually solved the battery issues.
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    but how would you know? what are you comparing it to?
TrevorJ 10y ago
The way they are going with feature removal, Apple products in 50 years will be slate tablets. Made of actual rock.
- ComputerGuru 10y ago
  >Made of actual rock Aluminum, actually.
  - erelde 10y ago
    Magical revolutionary slab of wireless aluminum. Pairing seemlessly with others magical revolutionary slab of wireless aluminum. Just put one atop the other and they will stack automatically.
    - gommm 10y ago
      With infinite battery life even...
TenOhms 10y ago
This is sad, if true.
- ctrlrsf 10y ago
  It's true. Installed 10.12.2 update this morning.
debt 10y ago
they removed it because it's inaccurate and useless. if i start rendering some huge video then the time remaining goes down drastically. so it said 90 minutes, it now says 10 minutes. useless.
- rbinv 10y ago
  I think it is (was) a handy feature to estimate the current load/power usage. I found it to be rather accurate.
- niij 10y ago
  I think the time remaining reflects estimated time with current usage. I don't think having a estimate of how much longer I can browse HN before needing to plug in is useless.
- erelde 10y ago
  But... That's logical. It evaluates the remaining time using current ressource usage. It is "accurate". It can't predict how much time your rendering will take, it can't predict the future. But it does an accurate estimate of how much the battery will last under the current load. (imo, current load is better than trying to compute the load trend)
  - debt 10y ago
    logical but still useless. if a measurement like time remaining can change at random based on load and the load can change at random based on user behavior then why show time remaining at all? if it jumps from 90 minutes to 10 minutes, what's the point of even showing it? "okay now i have 10 minutes left" it would be more accurate to say "you have 90 minutes left at your current level of cpu utilization" but i don't think that can fit in the menu help me figure it out, i don't get why a user would need this functionality ever.
    - erelde 10y ago
      Because "you have x minutes left at your current level of cpu utilization" has always been implied. If user have forgotten that, it's no reason to remove it. In fact there's rarely a reason to remove a feature if it doesn't cause issues. Taking your own exemple of video rendering, if I begin a render and After Effect (or similar) says it will take 50 minutes to render, but the remaining time says I only have 20 minutes left of battery (implying "at the current load"), I know I have to charge my laptop if I want to render the video.
cjslep 10y ago
> It seems Apple believes reports of bad battery life are largely based on the faulty indicator So to use a car analogy, it sounds like Apple means one of two things: If I remove the MPG indicator from my car I can get more MPG out of my car, or If I remove the MPG indicator from my car I won't complain about its poor MPG. Either way sounds stupid to me.
- simonh 10y ago
  remaining battery isn't like MPG though, it's more like remaining range. The trouble is computer use patterns can be way more bursty than car fuel usage in normal conditions. The nearest equivalent to spot MPG (how does what I am doing now affect endurance) would be the battery used by individual applications, and I believe that's still there.
  - jmanderley 10y ago
    Doesn't everyone know this? It's still a useful gauge to have.
    - benjaminjackman 10y ago
      exactly, rather than remove it, if they must tinker, just add something like "At current usage levels you have approximately xxx hours of battery life remaining."
- bluejekyll 10y ago
  This makes sense though. Your MPG will drop significantly if you go up a hill or slam the accelerator down. Similarly, Apple can't say for certain how much time is left, but it can say that the battery is low.
  - alistairSH 10y ago
    And my car adjusts the mile-remaining indicator appropriately. If I drive with a lead foot, the mileage remaining drops faster than if I drive like a granny.
annnnd 10y ago
Incredible. One would have thought that this is a solved problem. Of course it depends on usage how long the battery will last - so what? It's not like OS can't determine the power spending trend and draw conclusions about approximate time left. What is probably issue here is that Apple gets blamed for lots of things which are outside of their control. But it would be much nicer if OS advised customers how to fix these issues and get longer battery life. But yeah, removing indicator is easier. Sheldon: "Your fix engine light is on." Penny: "Yeah. I really should put a tape across it."
- givinguflac 10y ago
  For what it's worth, iOS battery settings will list off suggestions for improving battery life, such as lowering display brightness if you keep it high all the time.
DoodleBuggy 10y ago
Cool, reposted news from three days ago. Just as dumb today as it was then.
rubyn00bie 10y ago
I've been using this feature for years successfully and with the understanding that if I context switch to something radically different the estimate would be wrong (in practice this meant waiting until it updated reflecting the new usage). I'm shocked that they think this is an appropriate solution to people complaining about battery life. I find its removal very, very aggravating. My workflow is typically very consistent, e.g. terminal window open, iTunes playing, and a browser tab(s) or Xcode. It was useful to see "based on my current workflow, I have roughly 45 minutes of power remaining." It has always been accurate enough... The percentage indicator means NOTHING to me, it is just as bad as the time indicator-- as most anyone with an iPhone can understand. How often does your 1% of battery last inexplicably longer than the previous 10%? I've had it last over an hour at 1%. WTF? I also have found it to be a useful metric for seeing the condition of my battery or to help crackdown on rogue processes that are consuming too much power. E.g. "Why am I only seeing 4 hours remaining instead of the usual 6?" I love MacOS, and iOS, but I'm really starting to hate Apple. Truly hate them. I feel trapped as I've yet to find a PC laptop I like as much as a Macbook Pro (largely because of the trackpad). I've been using Macs as my primary machines for 12 years... it makes me sad to feel this way but the "good" feelings I used to get seem like a distant memory.
- marcalc 10y ago
  I agree with you. Those estimates were truly helpful and we could adapt in order to get more battery time. I don't feel good about Apple updates anymore. I used to be eager about beta tests and stuff, but nowadays I just hope they'll not touch anything else.
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    > I don't feel good about Apple updates anymore I haven't felt good about Apple updates since leaving Snow Leopard... :(
- mi100hael 10y ago
  > I've been using Macs as my primary machines for 12 years... it makes me sad to feel this way but the "good" feelings I used to get seem like a distant memory. I was in the same boat and bailed earlier this year. Check out the Dell Developer Edition Laptops[0]. I find the trackpad is about on par with the pre-force-touch trackpads from MBPs a year or two ago. Slightly loud/heavy click but tracks well and filters out unintentional palm input well. The rest of the hardware isn't bad, either. PCs have come a long way from cheap, creaky cases and weak, floppy hinges.
8draco8 10y ago
According to performance tests and not just looking at battery life indicator 2016 MBP is not that bad http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-Late-2016-2-6-GHz-i7-Notebook-Review.185254.0.html http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-Late-2016-...
24gttghh 10y ago
Why not just show the user how many mAh are left?
- Zhenya 10y ago
  "Mah what? mAh battery is going to last how long?" It would be a meaningless number to non-engineers. Sounds like we need smarter predictive algorithms based on previous usage patterns etc, not degrading the "average user" experience.
  - 24gttghh 10y ago
    I see no difference between mAh and MPG in terms of ability to understand for most people. If we expect more of people, they can learn. If we constantly dumb things down, all we do is create a depressing economy where no one understands anything, and always has to have someone else fix their trivial problems.
    - Zhenya 10y ago
      Miles and gallons are all measures most people have a relative understanding of. If I drive x miles I need y gallons. Easy-ish. What about amps?
      - mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
        Are those LA miles or Wyoming miles? apple is dealing with users who see their car is rated 30MPG for highway and then complaining when they only get 10MPG in rush hour LA traffic.
        Zhenya 10y ago
        Cars have 3 types of MPGs I can think of: -Instant -Average (over any given length of time) -EPA Rated. I've never heard someone complain they get bad mileage sitting in traffic and not understand that instant mpg != EPA mpg for specific conditions. This is why its strange that Apple removed this measure. However, I am not sure what you are arguing. For displaying the mAh or for bringing back the 'Time Left'?
anurag 10y ago
If you still need a time-remaining indicator, try Coconut Battery: http://www.coconut-flavour.com/coconutbattery/ http://www.coconut-flavour.com/coconutbattery/. It's free and works well.
puddintane 10y ago
I'm curious as to why not instead measure average battery consumption by each user to get a mean, and range which would allow a "range" of time to be shown (at the start this would be a much wider range of course). The user could then adapt to this range because they know the usage the best. Considering the dynamics of the computer and how we use them a range would be much more suited to fulfill this type of feedback from the system.
tomovo 10y ago
Somehow I doubt that the percentage indicator is any better. At constant 100% (or 50%) CPU utilisation, tracking the percentage, would you see a linear graph going down, hitting 0 as the machine shuts down? I've never tested that but it would be interesting to see the results for different models/OS versions.
haddr 10y ago
Yesterday, with the new update my mac was shut down unexpectedly, I haven't seen any warning from the battery indicator :( I hope this is not a default behaviour.

61 points by hartator 10y ago

> Apple believes that the battery life indicator in macOS Sierra is ultimately inaccurate and has led to some confusion about battery performance, and so it has been removed in macOS Sierra 10.12.2. I think that's the worst possible way to react against the new Macbook pro battery life complaints.

orclev 10y ago
Gee, it's not like this is the first time a Apple product problem has been blamed on a faulty formula: https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-Regarding-iPhone-4.html https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple...
bengale 10y ago
In fairness, the reports from this update are that they actually solved the battery issues.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  but how would you know? what are you comparing it to?

TrevorJ 10y ago

The way they are going with feature removal, Apple products in 50 years will be slate tablets. Made of actual rock.

ComputerGuru 10y ago
>Made of actual rock Aluminum, actually.
- erelde 10y ago
  Magical revolutionary slab of wireless aluminum. Pairing seemlessly with others magical revolutionary slab of wireless aluminum. Just put one atop the other and they will stack automatically.
  - gommm 10y ago
    With infinite battery life even...

TenOhms 10y ago

This is sad, if true.

ctrlrsf 10y ago
It's true. Installed 10.12.2 update this morning.

debt 10y ago

they removed it because it's inaccurate and useless. if i start rendering some huge video then the time remaining goes down drastically. so it said 90 minutes, it now says 10 minutes. useless.

rbinv 10y ago
I think it is (was) a handy feature to estimate the current load/power usage. I found it to be rather accurate.
niij 10y ago
I think the time remaining reflects estimated time with current usage. I don't think having a estimate of how much longer I can browse HN before needing to plug in is useless.
erelde 10y ago
But... That's logical. It evaluates the remaining time using current ressource usage. It is "accurate". It can't predict how much time your rendering will take, it can't predict the future. But it does an accurate estimate of how much the battery will last under the current load. (imo, current load is better than trying to compute the load trend)
- debt 10y ago
  logical but still useless. if a measurement like time remaining can change at random based on load and the load can change at random based on user behavior then why show time remaining at all? if it jumps from 90 minutes to 10 minutes, what's the point of even showing it? "okay now i have 10 minutes left" it would be more accurate to say "you have 90 minutes left at your current level of cpu utilization" but i don't think that can fit in the menu help me figure it out, i don't get why a user would need this functionality ever.
  - erelde 10y ago
    Because "you have x minutes left at your current level of cpu utilization" has always been implied. If user have forgotten that, it's no reason to remove it. In fact there's rarely a reason to remove a feature if it doesn't cause issues. Taking your own exemple of video rendering, if I begin a render and After Effect (or similar) says it will take 50 minutes to render, but the remaining time says I only have 20 minutes left of battery (implying "at the current load"), I know I have to charge my laptop if I want to render the video.

cjslep 10y ago

> It seems Apple believes reports of bad battery life are largely based on the faulty indicator So to use a car analogy, it sounds like Apple means one of two things: If I remove the MPG indicator from my car I can get more MPG out of my car, or If I remove the MPG indicator from my car I won't complain about its poor MPG. Either way sounds stupid to me.

simonh 10y ago
remaining battery isn't like MPG though, it's more like remaining range. The trouble is computer use patterns can be way more bursty than car fuel usage in normal conditions. The nearest equivalent to spot MPG (how does what I am doing now affect endurance) would be the battery used by individual applications, and I believe that's still there.
- jmanderley 10y ago
  Doesn't everyone know this? It's still a useful gauge to have.
  - benjaminjackman 10y ago
    exactly, rather than remove it, if they must tinker, just add something like "At current usage levels you have approximately xxx hours of battery life remaining."
bluejekyll 10y ago
This makes sense though. Your MPG will drop significantly if you go up a hill or slam the accelerator down. Similarly, Apple can't say for certain how much time is left, but it can say that the battery is low.
- alistairSH 10y ago
  And my car adjusts the mile-remaining indicator appropriately. If I drive with a lead foot, the mileage remaining drops faster than if I drive like a granny.

annnnd 10y ago

Incredible. One would have thought that this is a solved problem. Of course it depends on usage how long the battery will last - so what? It's not like OS can't determine the power spending trend and draw conclusions about approximate time left. What is probably issue here is that Apple gets blamed for lots of things which are outside of their control. But it would be much nicer if OS advised customers how to fix these issues and get longer battery life. But yeah, removing indicator is easier. Sheldon: "Your fix engine light is on." Penny: "Yeah. I really should put a tape across it."

givinguflac 10y ago
For what it's worth, iOS battery settings will list off suggestions for improving battery life, such as lowering display brightness if you keep it high all the time.

DoodleBuggy 10y ago

Cool, reposted news from three days ago. Just as dumb today as it was then.

rubyn00bie 10y ago

I've been using this feature for years successfully and with the understanding that if I context switch to something radically different the estimate would be wrong (in practice this meant waiting until it updated reflecting the new usage). I'm shocked that they think this is an appropriate solution to people complaining about battery life. I find its removal very, very aggravating. My workflow is typically very consistent, e.g. terminal window open, iTunes playing, and a browser tab(s) or Xcode. It was useful to see "based on my current workflow, I have roughly 45 minutes of power remaining." It has always been accurate enough... The percentage indicator means NOTHING to me, it is just as bad as the time indicator-- as most anyone with an iPhone can understand. How often does your 1% of battery last inexplicably longer than the previous 10%? I've had it last over an hour at 1%. WTF? I also have found it to be a useful metric for seeing the condition of my battery or to help crackdown on rogue processes that are consuming too much power. E.g. "Why am I only seeing 4 hours remaining instead of the usual 6?" I love MacOS, and iOS, but I'm really starting to hate Apple. Truly hate them. I feel trapped as I've yet to find a PC laptop I like as much as a Macbook Pro (largely because of the trackpad). I've been using Macs as my primary machines for 12 years... it makes me sad to feel this way but the "good" feelings I used to get seem like a distant memory.

marcalc 10y ago
I agree with you. Those estimates were truly helpful and we could adapt in order to get more battery time. I don't feel good about Apple updates anymore. I used to be eager about beta tests and stuff, but nowadays I just hope they'll not touch anything else.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  > I don't feel good about Apple updates anymore I haven't felt good about Apple updates since leaving Snow Leopard... :(
mi100hael 10y ago
> I've been using Macs as my primary machines for 12 years... it makes me sad to feel this way but the "good" feelings I used to get seem like a distant memory. I was in the same boat and bailed earlier this year. Check out the Dell Developer Edition Laptops[0]. I find the trackpad is about on par with the pre-force-touch trackpads from MBPs a year or two ago. Slightly loud/heavy click but tracks well and filters out unintentional palm input well. The rest of the hardware isn't bad, either. PCs have come a long way from cheap, creaky cases and weak, floppy hinges.

8draco8 10y ago

According to performance tests and not just looking at battery life indicator 2016 MBP is not that bad http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-Late-2016-2-6-GHz-i7-Notebook-Review.185254.0.html http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-Late-2016-...

24gttghh 10y ago

Why not just show the user how many mAh are left?

Zhenya 10y ago
"Mah what? mAh battery is going to last how long?" It would be a meaningless number to non-engineers. Sounds like we need smarter predictive algorithms based on previous usage patterns etc, not degrading the "average user" experience.
- 24gttghh 10y ago
  I see no difference between mAh and MPG in terms of ability to understand for most people. If we expect more of people, they can learn. If we constantly dumb things down, all we do is create a depressing economy where no one understands anything, and always has to have someone else fix their trivial problems.
  - Zhenya 10y ago
    Miles and gallons are all measures most people have a relative understanding of. If I drive x miles I need y gallons. Easy-ish. What about amps?
    - mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
      Are those LA miles or Wyoming miles? apple is dealing with users who see their car is rated 30MPG for highway and then complaining when they only get 10MPG in rush hour LA traffic.
      - Zhenya 10y ago
        Cars have 3 types of MPGs I can think of: -Instant -Average (over any given length of time) -EPA Rated. I've never heard someone complain they get bad mileage sitting in traffic and not understand that instant mpg != EPA mpg for specific conditions. This is why its strange that Apple removed this measure. However, I am not sure what you are arguing. For displaying the mAh or for bringing back the 'Time Left'?

anurag 10y ago

If you still need a time-remaining indicator, try Coconut Battery: http://www.coconut-flavour.com/coconutbattery/ http://www.coconut-flavour.com/coconutbattery/. It's free and works well.

puddintane 10y ago

I'm curious as to why not instead measure average battery consumption by each user to get a mean, and range which would allow a "range" of time to be shown (at the start this would be a much wider range of course). The user could then adapt to this range because they know the usage the best. Considering the dynamics of the computer and how we use them a range would be much more suited to fulfill this type of feedback from the system.

tomovo 10y ago

Somehow I doubt that the percentage indicator is any better. At constant 100% (or 50%) CPU utilisation, tracking the percentage, would you see a linear graph going down, hitting 0 as the machine shuts down? I've never tested that but it would be interesting to see the results for different models/OS versions.

haddr 10y ago

Yesterday, with the new update my mac was shut down unexpectedly, I haven't seen any warning from the battery indicator :( I hope this is not a default behaviour.