5 ms·

Pretty good advice, along with some good pointers about what NOT to do when learning a languages (ex. reading some instructional book cover-to-cover, forgetting

Pretty good advice, along with some good pointers about what NOT to do when learning a languages (ex. reading some instructional book cover-to-cover, forgetting most of the stuff along the way). I often suggest the read-a-chapter-write-a-program-based-on-it route, just to get the practice that is really important, and to solidify some intuition as to what the machine (whether interpreter or bare metal) is doing, and to make writing future programs easier. Side note: While I definitely applaud the idea of trying to create a language that is geared towards beginners and good for learning on, I don't know if I can get behind recommending such a language that is still under development being suggested to beginners. Then again, I'd consider recommending lisps to beginners (if not python), so maybe I'm not the most credible source

mirekrusin 10y ago
I read c# spec when it was in beta, going fast through it, skimming less informative parts, taking quick notes as bullet points in form of single statement or question. It was one of the best experiences, it put me in flow mode and I learned a lot in very short time. I used c# later professionally and never had problems. Great thing about language specs is that is very precise, without mistakes. The art is to read+skim+note it quite fast.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > Great thing about language specs is that is very precise, without mistakes. I'd also add "concise" to the list of required traits for a good language spec. If you don't believe me that's important, go check out the C++ specification. IIRC it contains some 50 pages of rules on how to choose implementations of an overloaded function.
  - joatmon-snoo 10y ago
    And if you're looking at modern C++, you also get to learn about lvalues, glvalues, xvalues, rvalues, and prvalues!
    - webmaven 10y ago
      prvalues are the ones that return a promise about a system's future state which are commonly expected to prove false, right?
  - hardwaresofton 10y ago
    Was this not a direct (possibly knee-jerk) reaction to the ease with which you could shoot yourself in the foot, and undefined behavior C allows?
trymas 10y ago
> Side note: While I definitely applaud the idea of trying to create a language that is geared towards beginners and good for learning on, I don't know if I can get behind recommending such a language that is still under development being suggested to beginners. I second this. Especially when python itself is very beginner friendly. IMHO the best advice on learning a skill is just do some projects with it. I am not exactly sure, which should come first, the 1. or the 2. point made in the article. Though I would dare to say the 2. point is more important. By doing python projects first you familiarize with it and then if you are still on - you should read zen of python, pep8, etc..
- jacobr1 10y ago
  Agreed - you need to experiential context to grok the concepts about best practices. Otherwise, it is just cargo-cultism. Most the great programmers I know learn by working on increasingly more complex projects and then deep-diving into the details whenever they come across something they don't know. They make this process move faster, not by doing tutorials and writing code from scratch (after the initial bootstrapping of learning a new language/framework), but by reading code from others, especially successful project. And again diving into to understand the WHY behind the implementation and this reinforce the choice and knowledge of the HOW.
- eric_bullington 10y ago
  I strongly agree. Dealing with a language in development is hard enough when you're an experienced programmer, I can't imagine trying to learn programming with an unstable language.
  - dwaynecrooks 10y ago
    I tend to agree as well. The Pyret option is probably better done with a mentor by your side. If no mentor is available like they probably have in the Bootstrap (http://www.bootstrapworld.org/ http://www.bootstrapworld.org/) program then Python is more than likely the better option. So I'd expect 99% of the people to stick with Python anyway which is fine.
- 10y ago
voltagex_ 10y ago
>I often suggest the read-a-chapter-write-a-program-based-on-it route After doing some of https://javascript30.com/ https://javascript30.com/ I want the "30 day challenges" style tutorials in every language - I love it. I'm not sure how well it works for long term learning but it's really helped with my motivation.
DigitalJack 10y ago
I get so frustrated with picking up a new language because they all seem to either be "from scratch, here is how to add two numbers" or cookbooks that assume too much knowledge. the learnxinyminutes stuff is sometimes good. It'd be nice if there was a resource that taught languages from the perspective of already knowing another (any) language in that same family. Show me definitions, modules, packages, namespacing, whatever, and get out of my way.
- hardwaresofton 10y ago
  I agree with your gripes here -- absolutely agree there are a lot of languages that get it wrong. I think there are some books that really get it right though, that show you how to do stuff, but also try to get out of your way. Some examples (in order of adherence to this point, to the best of my ability): - Practical Common Lisp - Learn You a Haskell For Great Good - Clojure For The Brave and True
drivers99 10y ago
> I often suggest the read-a-chapter-write-a-program-based-on-it route Learning Perl (the llama book) was great for that. At first, I would think that I understood just from reading the chapter, but doing the exercises at the end of each chapter made me actually learn it.
- hardwaresofton 10y ago
  Absolutely agree! In a previous life, I was working at a company where perl was just about the most recent scripting language they were using (for better or for worse), and that book was an absolute godsend. Reading through Chapter 8 around was all I needed to be productive, and I've recommended the book ever since (especially while I was at that job)
- sn9 10y ago
  Allen Downey's Think Python is that book for Python, though focused more on teaching good programming habits than scripting.
hyperpallium 10y ago
Smalltalk was developed that way... Also, MIT switched from scheme to python. \tangent I agree with your approach of mixing theory and practice. So what's the best way to learn fluid simulation? It's discouraging spending so long on maths without the gratification of Something Actually Working.

mirekrusin 10y ago

I read c# spec when it was in beta, going fast through it, skimming less informative parts, taking quick notes as bullet points in form of single statement or question. It was one of the best experiences, it put me in flow mode and I learned a lot in very short time. I used c# later professionally and never had problems. Great thing about language specs is that is very precise, without mistakes. The art is to read+skim+note it quite fast.

majewsky 10y ago
> Great thing about language specs is that is very precise, without mistakes. I'd also add "concise" to the list of required traits for a good language spec. If you don't believe me that's important, go check out the C++ specification. IIRC it contains some 50 pages of rules on how to choose implementations of an overloaded function.
- joatmon-snoo 10y ago
  And if you're looking at modern C++, you also get to learn about lvalues, glvalues, xvalues, rvalues, and prvalues!
  - webmaven 10y ago
    prvalues are the ones that return a promise about a system's future state which are commonly expected to prove false, right?
- hardwaresofton 10y ago
  Was this not a direct (possibly knee-jerk) reaction to the ease with which you could shoot yourself in the foot, and undefined behavior C allows?

trymas 10y ago

> Side note: While I definitely applaud the idea of trying to create a language that is geared towards beginners and good for learning on, I don't know if I can get behind recommending such a language that is still under development being suggested to beginners. I second this. Especially when python itself is very beginner friendly. IMHO the best advice on learning a skill is just do some projects with it. I am not exactly sure, which should come first, the 1. or the 2. point made in the article. Though I would dare to say the 2. point is more important. By doing python projects first you familiarize with it and then if you are still on - you should read zen of python, pep8, etc..

jacobr1 10y ago
Agreed - you need to experiential context to grok the concepts about best practices. Otherwise, it is just cargo-cultism. Most the great programmers I know learn by working on increasingly more complex projects and then deep-diving into the details whenever they come across something they don't know. They make this process move faster, not by doing tutorials and writing code from scratch (after the initial bootstrapping of learning a new language/framework), but by reading code from others, especially successful project. And again diving into to understand the WHY behind the implementation and this reinforce the choice and knowledge of the HOW.
eric_bullington 10y ago
I strongly agree. Dealing with a language in development is hard enough when you're an experienced programmer, I can't imagine trying to learn programming with an unstable language.
- dwaynecrooks 10y ago
  I tend to agree as well. The Pyret option is probably better done with a mentor by your side. If no mentor is available like they probably have in the Bootstrap (http://www.bootstrapworld.org/ http://www.bootstrapworld.org/) program then Python is more than likely the better option. So I'd expect 99% of the people to stick with Python anyway which is fine.
10y ago

voltagex_ 10y ago

>I often suggest the read-a-chapter-write-a-program-based-on-it route After doing some of https://javascript30.com/ https://javascript30.com/ I want the "30 day challenges" style tutorials in every language - I love it. I'm not sure how well it works for long term learning but it's really helped with my motivation.

DigitalJack 10y ago

I get so frustrated with picking up a new language because they all seem to either be "from scratch, here is how to add two numbers" or cookbooks that assume too much knowledge. the learnxinyminutes stuff is sometimes good. It'd be nice if there was a resource that taught languages from the perspective of already knowing another (any) language in that same family. Show me definitions, modules, packages, namespacing, whatever, and get out of my way.

hardwaresofton 10y ago
I agree with your gripes here -- absolutely agree there are a lot of languages that get it wrong. I think there are some books that really get it right though, that show you how to do stuff, but also try to get out of your way. Some examples (in order of adherence to this point, to the best of my ability): - Practical Common Lisp - Learn You a Haskell For Great Good - Clojure For The Brave and True

drivers99 10y ago

> I often suggest the read-a-chapter-write-a-program-based-on-it route Learning Perl (the llama book) was great for that. At first, I would think that I understood just from reading the chapter, but doing the exercises at the end of each chapter made me actually learn it.

hardwaresofton 10y ago
Absolutely agree! In a previous life, I was working at a company where perl was just about the most recent scripting language they were using (for better or for worse), and that book was an absolute godsend. Reading through Chapter 8 around was all I needed to be productive, and I've recommended the book ever since (especially while I was at that job)
sn9 10y ago
Allen Downey's Think Python is that book for Python, though focused more on teaching good programming habits than scripting.

hyperpallium 10y ago

Smalltalk was developed that way... Also, MIT switched from scheme to python. \tangent I agree with your approach of mixing theory and practice. So what's the best way to learn fluid simulation? It's discouraging spending so long on maths without the gratification of Something Actually Working.