10 ms·

When you get a legally-binding order from the government of the United States of America, and exhaust your legal appeals, you either comply or go to prison. An

When you get a legally-binding order from the government of the United States of America, and exhaust your legal appeals, you either comply or go to prison. An ethics course won't do you any good.

walrus01 10y ago
People have the option to quit. The company is legally bound to obey, but individual employees can chose for themselves whether they want to be a party to it. Yahoo may still be court ordered to implement it, just hopefully not with their best and brightest developers. I also have a theory that a lot of the recent terrible news coming out of Yahoo is due to staff complying with the letter of the legal order but not the entire thorough spirit of it, intentionally doing a quick, shoddy bug ridden job.
- bluesmoon 10y ago
  Unfortunately it's not that simple. More often than not, someone high up will find someone low whose continued stay in the country is highly dependent on them keeping this job. While I've never had to make such a choice, I can tell you that my personal attitude towards what I would and wouldn't do changed the day this restriction was removed.
- jrowley 10y ago
  The other point to be made is that you probably want your best developers implementing back doors (if you are compelled to do so), so at least the back door is as secure as possible (and not trivially bipassed)
  - couchand 10y ago
    All the more reason that you should take pause when your best developers refuse to do so.
- kashkhan 10y ago
  it only works if resignations are numerous enough to matter to the company.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    It only "works" in the sense of preventing it if resignations are that numerous. It "works" in the sense of "I, the individual employee, can still live with myself", even if only one quits.
kabdib 10y ago
Options: - Refuse to take action. They want engineering done, they can bloody well do it themselves. Don't type a single keystroke in the direction of helping them. - Announce what is going on anonymously. Plenty of avenues for this. - Announce what is going on, publicly. See if they do indeed want to take you to court. - Quit. - Take down the service. Much easier if the service is only a part of your company. Helps a lot if you don't retain the information they're looking for. - Lie. - Destroy records (this is by far the riskiest action here, above a simple public announcement). - Delay. And delay more. - Keep information outside the jurisdiction, possibly controlled by a third party who will not comply with orders. - Misunderstand ("Is that a one, or an ell?") Most of these will get you into trouble, a few won't. Most of these are really difficult roads. I've given this some thought before. If I found a backdoor in a product, I would remove it with a tracking bug and a checkin, and send internal email about a really bad bug that I'd just fixed; the more internal people that know, the better. And if a VP showed up and berated me, I'd just tell them to fuck off, and quit if it came to that.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  If you want to quit to refuse to help, fine, but I take serious issue with what you're suggesting beyond that. These are the legal actions of the United States government, executing the authority given to them to the people's elected representatives, and overseen by a judiciary duly selected according the constitutional procedures. Their legal and democratic authority is unassailable. Further, you don't know what motivated these actions. Is it intelligence about a specific threat? Has the government identified how a specific adversary operates? You could be impeding the investigation into a deadly plot. You have no way of knowing this. This isn't a game. We have real enemies who would gladly kill all of us. We have processes as a society for deciding how we defend ourselves. If you don't like our current policies, then exercise your vote, exercise your right to speak and publish and assemble. But don't usurp the sovereignty of the people of this country.
  - walrus01 10y ago
    > You could be impeding the investigation into a deadly plot. problem is, that's the excuse that's always going to be given by the intelligence community for even the most obviously unconstitutional intrusive privacy invading stuff, like the NSA's "opticnerve" program.
hbt 10y ago
This is why we (as a community/industry) need to have the equivalent of a prison/death threat. The government wins by making it personal, by threatening prison and death for your obedience. It's not an abstract threat. It is directed to a specific person not a company or security team. The people who comply can quit those companies but they don't. I'm not referring to the ones down the chain (e.g the security team who was unaware) but the ones who obeyed and pushed something they believed was wrong. Whether it is public shaming or having a permanent stain on their reputation next time they go job hunting, we need a way to retaliate. Right now, they can fuck us and get away with it and what's their excuse? "the government told me to do it. Just doing my job. I had no choice." There are no societal consequences to cooperating with the government even when we believe it's wrong. Create a climate of "snitches get stitches" and maybe they will think twice before selling out the lives of a billion people. The same way these government officials hide behind patriotism when they mean blind obedience to my authority.
- bbarn 10y ago
  Wow. This is probably the worst comment I've ever seen on HN. You're suggesting that people who follow the law, which you disagree with, get blacklisted, following the model of criminals killing other criminals who follow the law. If you want to change the government, there are far better ways than retaliating against citizens unwilling to risk life and limb for your ideology. I think you need to learn to direct your anger. Not everyone is in so privileged of a position to be taking your specific moral high ground over their own well being.
  - throwaway21013 10y ago
    Troll. Period.
  - hbt 10y ago
    So now, quitting your job (because you're asked to do something unethical) is the equivalent of losing your life and limbs? Let me guess, you believe all government actions are lawful. All lawful actions are righteous and justified. The only permissible way to change the system is through the system. Did I get the gist of your morality? In which case, keep voting and I'm sure you will see the changes you want reflected in legislation just so they can be ignored in by secret courts and intelligence services. In the real world, people respond to threats (e.g prison). That's what the government uses. Why are we expected to behave differently?
mtgx 10y ago
Not true. Lavabit founder still roams free. But that's how they get you, through fear. You self-censor and agree to comply yourself, before you even dare to speak out against them. That's how they win without even lifting a finger.
logfromblammo 10y ago
The ethics course will make you feel better about going to prison.
hobarrera 10y ago
You can also "do it poorly", in such a mediocre way that what's going on leaks out. There's no way for them to prove that you did a bad job on purpose. While on topic, if they threaten you with prison if you don't do their bidding (with no due process, etc), doesn't that make them the terrorists (eg: they're using terror/fear to get people to do what they want).

When you get a legally-binding order from the government of the United States of America, and exhaust your legal appeals, you either comply or go to prison. An ethics course won't do you any good.

walrus01 10y ago

People have the option to quit. The company is legally bound to obey, but individual employees can chose for themselves whether they want to be a party to it. Yahoo may still be court ordered to implement it, just hopefully not with their best and brightest developers. I also have a theory that a lot of the recent terrible news coming out of Yahoo is due to staff complying with the letter of the legal order but not the entire thorough spirit of it, intentionally doing a quick, shoddy bug ridden job.

bluesmoon 10y ago
Unfortunately it's not that simple. More often than not, someone high up will find someone low whose continued stay in the country is highly dependent on them keeping this job. While I've never had to make such a choice, I can tell you that my personal attitude towards what I would and wouldn't do changed the day this restriction was removed.
jrowley 10y ago
The other point to be made is that you probably want your best developers implementing back doors (if you are compelled to do so), so at least the back door is as secure as possible (and not trivially bipassed)
- couchand 10y ago
  All the more reason that you should take pause when your best developers refuse to do so.
kashkhan 10y ago
it only works if resignations are numerous enough to matter to the company.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  It only "works" in the sense of preventing it if resignations are that numerous. It "works" in the sense of "I, the individual employee, can still live with myself", even if only one quits.

kabdib 10y ago

Options: - Refuse to take action. They want engineering done, they can bloody well do it themselves. Don't type a single keystroke in the direction of helping them. - Announce what is going on anonymously. Plenty of avenues for this. - Announce what is going on, publicly. See if they do indeed want to take you to court. - Quit. - Take down the service. Much easier if the service is only a part of your company. Helps a lot if you don't retain the information they're looking for. - Lie. - Destroy records (this is by far the riskiest action here, above a simple public announcement). - Delay. And delay more. - Keep information outside the jurisdiction, possibly controlled by a third party who will not comply with orders. - Misunderstand ("Is that a one, or an ell?") Most of these will get you into trouble, a few won't. Most of these are really difficult roads. I've given this some thought before. If I found a backdoor in a product, I would remove it with a tracking bug and a checkin, and send internal email about a really bad bug that I'd just fixed; the more internal people that know, the better. And if a VP showed up and berated me, I'd just tell them to fuck off, and quit if it came to that.

marcoperaza 10y ago
If you want to quit to refuse to help, fine, but I take serious issue with what you're suggesting beyond that. These are the legal actions of the United States government, executing the authority given to them to the people's elected representatives, and overseen by a judiciary duly selected according the constitutional procedures. Their legal and democratic authority is unassailable. Further, you don't know what motivated these actions. Is it intelligence about a specific threat? Has the government identified how a specific adversary operates? You could be impeding the investigation into a deadly plot. You have no way of knowing this. This isn't a game. We have real enemies who would gladly kill all of us. We have processes as a society for deciding how we defend ourselves. If you don't like our current policies, then exercise your vote, exercise your right to speak and publish and assemble. But don't usurp the sovereignty of the people of this country.
- walrus01 10y ago
  > You could be impeding the investigation into a deadly plot. problem is, that's the excuse that's always going to be given by the intelligence community for even the most obviously unconstitutional intrusive privacy invading stuff, like the NSA's "opticnerve" program.

hbt 10y ago

This is why we (as a community/industry) need to have the equivalent of a prison/death threat. The government wins by making it personal, by threatening prison and death for your obedience. It's not an abstract threat. It is directed to a specific person not a company or security team. The people who comply can quit those companies but they don't. I'm not referring to the ones down the chain (e.g the security team who was unaware) but the ones who obeyed and pushed something they believed was wrong. Whether it is public shaming or having a permanent stain on their reputation next time they go job hunting, we need a way to retaliate. Right now, they can fuck us and get away with it and what's their excuse? "the government told me to do it. Just doing my job. I had no choice." There are no societal consequences to cooperating with the government even when we believe it's wrong. Create a climate of "snitches get stitches" and maybe they will think twice before selling out the lives of a billion people. The same way these government officials hide behind patriotism when they mean blind obedience to my authority.

bbarn 10y ago
Wow. This is probably the worst comment I've ever seen on HN. You're suggesting that people who follow the law, which you disagree with, get blacklisted, following the model of criminals killing other criminals who follow the law. If you want to change the government, there are far better ways than retaliating against citizens unwilling to risk life and limb for your ideology. I think you need to learn to direct your anger. Not everyone is in so privileged of a position to be taking your specific moral high ground over their own well being.
- throwaway21013 10y ago
  Troll. Period.
- hbt 10y ago
  So now, quitting your job (because you're asked to do something unethical) is the equivalent of losing your life and limbs? Let me guess, you believe all government actions are lawful. All lawful actions are righteous and justified. The only permissible way to change the system is through the system. Did I get the gist of your morality? In which case, keep voting and I'm sure you will see the changes you want reflected in legislation just so they can be ignored in by secret courts and intelligence services. In the real world, people respond to threats (e.g prison). That's what the government uses. Why are we expected to behave differently?

mtgx 10y ago

Not true. Lavabit founder still roams free. But that's how they get you, through fear. You self-censor and agree to comply yourself, before you even dare to speak out against them. That's how they win without even lifting a finger.

logfromblammo 10y ago

The ethics course will make you feel better about going to prison.

hobarrera 10y ago

You can also "do it poorly", in such a mediocre way that what's going on leaks out. There's no way for them to prove that you did a bad job on purpose. While on topic, if they threaten you with prison if you don't do their bidding (with no due process, etc), doesn't that make them the terrorists (eg: they're using terror/fear to get people to do what they want).