4 ms·

this is very much true. Outside censorship, the working culture of China is also quite different. It's quite common to do overtime in China. work-life balance

this is very much true. Outside censorship, the working culture of China is also quite different. It's quite common to do overtime in China. work-life balance is less respected. People accept it as the normal and are proud of it. My friend worked for an accounting company. In busy season, she had to work till 5a.m. in the morning of the next day and present her report to her supervisor at 8 a.m. she took her toothbrush, pajamas, sleep bag to the company because it doesn't make sense to go home at 5 a.m. and back at 8 a.m. as commute takes long time too. There is another friend working for Alibaba. Once they wanted to release a messenger app to catch up wechat. The entire team was shipped to a different city during Chinese new year, they are disallowed from leaving until the product is shipped. I also went to a talk by Xiaomi at standford, they were very proud of having official 6 day work week.

magic_beans 10y ago
Wow. That's pretty horrifying.
- cylinder 10y ago
  None of those stories are rare in the US professional world - GP did not say that's happening every day there. Also, the 40-hr work week is a relatively new development even in advanced nations. China is newer to this game so yes a six day work week will be considered an achievement.
  - nerfhammer 10y ago
    I'm not sure what it means to be shipped to a different city and not being allowed to leave means, but even junior investment bankers on wall street don't have to do that.
    - cylinder 10y ago
      "Not being allowed" means you're fired if you don't stick to your post. How is that different to any career here where you are transferred to a different branch office? Clearly if Goldman Sachs transfers you to their Salt Lake City office and you stop showing up to work you'll be terminated.
      - nerfhammer 10y ago
        "disallowed from leaving" sounds just a little more ominous than that, but who knows if OP was exaggerating or not. In terms of this particular example, Goldman would not attempt to do that because 95% of the affected employees would quit on the spot.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    That whole "new to the game" argument never held water with me. They may be "new", but they also have had the ability to watch the rest of the world, and see how they developed. They've had the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others, and they've outright rejected it.
otoburb 10y ago
Investment banking/PE, management consulting, and especially US startup culture all seem to tout similar hours during busy seasons or impending product launches (similar to programming death marches). Although more extreme, is this really much different from Google, Facebook, Apple or other SV/NY firms offering "perks" designed to make your extended office existence more tolerable?
- st3v3r 10y ago
  YES! I've never heard of one of those shipping a whole team off, during the holidays, and telling them they can't leave until a stupid fucking app is done. Read that again. It was not a vital piece of infrastructure, or an important breakthrough for science. It was a stupid fucking chat app. For that, these people were held and denied the ability to celebrate a holiday.
- argonaut 10y ago
  IB/management consulting are paying you $100k+ at the entry level and $200k-$1M+ at higher ranks. PE is paying you $300k to multi millions. All three professions are extremely high status professions. Lets just say we are not comparing the same things. Goog/Face/App/Soft are offering you completely voluntary perks. You are free to not eat dinner at Google and go home. In fact, you can just eat dinner at Google and then go home immediately. Or even grab takeout at the cafeteria on the way to your car! Lets just say we are not comparing the same things.
venomsnake 10y ago
In the western game industry this is called slow week.
- gcb0 10y ago
  everyone forgets the usa has no labor laws or unions either. well there's a couple legacy unions that survived the smearing campaign over the decades trying to associate then with crime... but none in silicon valley, that's for sure.
  - argonaut 10y ago
    You are only right the USA has no unions for tech. In other industries unions are still there (public sector and manufacturing mostly). The USA has labor laws, and they are enforced. And they affect Silicon Valley worker lives daily. Non-competes are near-unenforceable in California because of California labor law. There was also a thread a while back about how CA law allows you to retain IP over side-projects unrelated to your employer's business, regardless of what your contract says.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > The USA has labor laws, and they are enforced Some of them. Lots of programmers are misclassified as FLSA exempt when they don't meet the standards for such exemption, but because of lack of organization and because of the status signalling that goes with FLSA exemption, they rarely challenge this, so it's poorly enforced.
      - argonaut 10y ago
        I've almost never seen a programmer in SV whose job duties and pay mean they fall under FLSA. What are you referring to? Maybe a student programmer, I guess.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Sorry, I meant the California equivalent (the salary threshold under the computer professions exemption under FLSA is stunningly low, less than $24K/yr; the state version of the exemption for computing professions has a floor close to $90K/yr.)
passiveincomelg 10y ago
Sounds like the worst of both worlds: totalitarian government and hardcore capitalist exploitation at work. I hope every single developer leaves this hellhole.
- polotics 10y ago
  Word!
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
In China, 6 day work weeks were officially sanctioned until the mid 2000s. It was quite weird that everyone would work on Saturday when I visited beijing the first time in 1999.

magic_beans 10y ago

Wow. That's pretty horrifying.

cylinder 10y ago
None of those stories are rare in the US professional world - GP did not say that's happening every day there. Also, the 40-hr work week is a relatively new development even in advanced nations. China is newer to this game so yes a six day work week will be considered an achievement.
- nerfhammer 10y ago
  I'm not sure what it means to be shipped to a different city and not being allowed to leave means, but even junior investment bankers on wall street don't have to do that.
  - cylinder 10y ago
    "Not being allowed" means you're fired if you don't stick to your post. How is that different to any career here where you are transferred to a different branch office? Clearly if Goldman Sachs transfers you to their Salt Lake City office and you stop showing up to work you'll be terminated.
    - nerfhammer 10y ago
      "disallowed from leaving" sounds just a little more ominous than that, but who knows if OP was exaggerating or not. In terms of this particular example, Goldman would not attempt to do that because 95% of the affected employees would quit on the spot.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  That whole "new to the game" argument never held water with me. They may be "new", but they also have had the ability to watch the rest of the world, and see how they developed. They've had the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others, and they've outright rejected it.

otoburb 10y ago

Investment banking/PE, management consulting, and especially US startup culture all seem to tout similar hours during busy seasons or impending product launches (similar to programming death marches). Although more extreme, is this really much different from Google, Facebook, Apple or other SV/NY firms offering "perks" designed to make your extended office existence more tolerable?

st3v3r 10y ago
YES! I've never heard of one of those shipping a whole team off, during the holidays, and telling them they can't leave until a stupid fucking app is done. Read that again. It was not a vital piece of infrastructure, or an important breakthrough for science. It was a stupid fucking chat app. For that, these people were held and denied the ability to celebrate a holiday.
argonaut 10y ago
IB/management consulting are paying you $100k+ at the entry level and $200k-$1M+ at higher ranks. PE is paying you $300k to multi millions. All three professions are extremely high status professions. Lets just say we are not comparing the same things. Goog/Face/App/Soft are offering you completely voluntary perks. You are free to not eat dinner at Google and go home. In fact, you can just eat dinner at Google and then go home immediately. Or even grab takeout at the cafeteria on the way to your car! Lets just say we are not comparing the same things.

venomsnake 10y ago

In the western game industry this is called slow week.

gcb0 10y ago
everyone forgets the usa has no labor laws or unions either. well there's a couple legacy unions that survived the smearing campaign over the decades trying to associate then with crime... but none in silicon valley, that's for sure.
- argonaut 10y ago
  You are only right the USA has no unions for tech. In other industries unions are still there (public sector and manufacturing mostly). The USA has labor laws, and they are enforced. And they affect Silicon Valley worker lives daily. Non-competes are near-unenforceable in California because of California labor law. There was also a thread a while back about how CA law allows you to retain IP over side-projects unrelated to your employer's business, regardless of what your contract says.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > The USA has labor laws, and they are enforced Some of them. Lots of programmers are misclassified as FLSA exempt when they don't meet the standards for such exemption, but because of lack of organization and because of the status signalling that goes with FLSA exemption, they rarely challenge this, so it's poorly enforced.
    - argonaut 10y ago
      I've almost never seen a programmer in SV whose job duties and pay mean they fall under FLSA. What are you referring to? Maybe a student programmer, I guess.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        Sorry, I meant the California equivalent (the salary threshold under the computer professions exemption under FLSA is stunningly low, less than $24K/yr; the state version of the exemption for computing professions has a floor close to $90K/yr.)

passiveincomelg 10y ago

Sounds like the worst of both worlds: totalitarian government and hardcore capitalist exploitation at work. I hope every single developer leaves this hellhole.

polotics 10y ago
Word!

seanmcdirmid 10y ago

In China, 6 day work weeks were officially sanctioned until the mid 2000s. It was quite weird that everyone would work on Saturday when I visited beijing the first time in 1999.