6 ms·

You are factually correct. The emotion-based downvoting is real.

icebraining 10y ago
Is he? So if I'm poor, can I go to a store, take a copy of a Crytek game, and claim "well, I just failed to pay money I don't have" and not be accused of stealing?
- mark_edward 10y ago
  Lots of people believe in special exceptions for people in positions of power and wealth, like employers. Some of these people get to make laws.
- manmal 10y ago
  Disagreeing with an opinion is not a reason to downvote on HN.
  - detaro 10y ago
    as far as I know this (nearly 9 year old) post saying otherwise is still the official ruling on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
    - DanBC 10y ago
      Not this one, where downvote to disagree is described as a bit of a problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057347 Or this one, where pg suggests that people don't downvoting a grey post (I think people do downvote grey posts now, more than they used to.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683 this thread also has some comments about voting (and a bunch of other stuff, including ahem politics https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2403696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2403696)
      - detaro 10y ago
        wasn't aware of those, thanks.
- alexhayes 10y ago
  MANY people do essentially the same thing all the time. They call it torrenting... Rather than say "well, I just failed to pay money I don't have" you can just say "oh no, it's cool, I'm just downloading it"
  - coderdude 10y ago
    Your error was to go against the 'gimme free stoofs' people. They outnumber us 1 million to 1.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      The only people here arguing for "free stuff" are those defending the Crytek execs, who got a bunch of free labor.
      - coderdude 10y ago
        If it comes to pass that Crytek cannot, and knowingly could not, pay them then that's when to bandwagon. Not before it's known. That's how it plays out on HN. Guilty before proven innocent. If you believed everything you read here the world would be a very alien place.
        icebraining 10y ago
        cperciva wrote "a company failing to pay money it doesn't have is not the same thing as stealing", and you wrote he was factually correct. How do you know if he's factually correct, if, as you admit, it's still not known if they knowingly stiffed the workers? You're the one jumping to conclusions. All I said is that they got a bunch of free labour, which is true regardless of whether they knowingly did so or not.
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    Torrenting is relevant if you copy someone's labor. Or otherwise receive value from their preexisting actions without them expending additional effort. The issue at hand is making a contract for something/labor, using it up, and not paying. It's a totally different topic.
matt4077 10y ago
He's incorrect. If you willingly take on debt even though you know you will not be able to pay it you're committing criminal bankruptcy (in Germany, where Crytek is based). Usually you have to notify the courts if you've been unable to pay for two weeks. Specifically for wages and insurance dues there's this law: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2245 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st.... Summary: Up to 5 years in prison.
- coderdude 10y ago
  They're still not the same thing at all.
- heysunshine123 10y ago
  > If you willingly take on debt even though you know you will not be able to pay it you're committing criminal bankruptcy But even that's called "criminal bankrupty", and not "credit theft" or something. Possibly because you can't steal credit - it's either given, or it's not given. In the same way, work is either performed, or it's not performed. It's not somehow stealthily extracted from you while you're not looking.
  - patates 10y ago
    So it's not stealing if you have no money and go eat in a restaurant?
  - spangry 10y ago
    Correction: it's money given under the condition it will be paid back at some point in future. Someone who acquires credit, 'trade-credit' (i.e. deferred invoice payment) or whatever you call the employee/employer equivalent in the full knowledge that they will not be able to pay it back is basically committing fraud. As in, 'obtaining a financial benefit by means of deception'. But putting aside the legalism, it's just plain wrong.
    - heysunshine123 10y ago

Is he? So if I'm poor, can I go to a store, take a copy of a Crytek game, and claim "well, I just failed to pay money I don't have" and not be accused of stealing?

mark_edward 10y ago
Lots of people believe in special exceptions for people in positions of power and wealth, like employers. Some of these people get to make laws.
manmal 10y ago
Disagreeing with an opinion is not a reason to downvote on HN.
- detaro 10y ago
  as far as I know this (nearly 9 year old) post saying otherwise is still the official ruling on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Not this one, where downvote to disagree is described as a bit of a problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057347 Or this one, where pg suggests that people don't downvoting a grey post (I think people do downvote grey posts now, more than they used to.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683 this thread also has some comments about voting (and a bunch of other stuff, including ahem politics https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2403696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2403696)
    - detaro 10y ago
      wasn't aware of those, thanks.
alexhayes 10y ago
MANY people do essentially the same thing all the time. They call it torrenting... Rather than say "well, I just failed to pay money I don't have" you can just say "oh no, it's cool, I'm just downloading it"
- coderdude 10y ago
  Your error was to go against the 'gimme free stoofs' people. They outnumber us 1 million to 1.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    The only people here arguing for "free stuff" are those defending the Crytek execs, who got a bunch of free labor.
    - coderdude 10y ago
      If it comes to pass that Crytek cannot, and knowingly could not, pay them then that's when to bandwagon. Not before it's known. That's how it plays out on HN. Guilty before proven innocent. If you believed everything you read here the world would be a very alien place.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        cperciva wrote "a company failing to pay money it doesn't have is not the same thing as stealing", and you wrote he was factually correct. How do you know if he's factually correct, if, as you admit, it's still not known if they knowingly stiffed the workers? You're the one jumping to conclusions. All I said is that they got a bunch of free labour, which is true regardless of whether they knowingly did so or not.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  Torrenting is relevant if you copy someone's labor. Or otherwise receive value from their preexisting actions without them expending additional effort. The issue at hand is making a contract for something/labor, using it up, and not paying. It's a totally different topic.

matt4077 10y ago

He's incorrect. If you willingly take on debt even though you know you will not be able to pay it you're committing criminal bankruptcy (in Germany, where Crytek is based). Usually you have to notify the courts if you've been unable to pay for two weeks. Specifically for wages and insurance dues there's this law: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2245 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st.... Summary: Up to 5 years in prison.

coderdude 10y ago
They're still not the same thing at all.
heysunshine123 10y ago
> If you willingly take on debt even though you know you will not be able to pay it you're committing criminal bankruptcy But even that's called "criminal bankrupty", and not "credit theft" or something. Possibly because you can't steal credit - it's either given, or it's not given. In the same way, work is either performed, or it's not performed. It's not somehow stealthily extracted from you while you're not looking.
- patates 10y ago
  So it's not stealing if you have no money and go eat in a restaurant?
- spangry 10y ago
  Correction: it's money given under the condition it will be paid back at some point in future. Someone who acquires credit, 'trade-credit' (i.e. deferred invoice payment) or whatever you call the employee/employer equivalent in the full knowledge that they will not be able to pay it back is basically committing fraud. As in, 'obtaining a financial benefit by means of deception'. But putting aside the legalism, it's just plain wrong.
  - heysunshine123 10y ago