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I believe this is true. But I also have found that sometimes the user experience is diminished when not "logged in" to encourage people to create accounts. Pint

I believe this is true. But I also have found that sometimes the user experience is diminished when not "logged in" to encourage people to create accounts. Pinterest has a box that slowly covers up more of the screen as you scroll drown. Facebook has a login prompt box that stays at the bottom of the screen and occasionally expands as a reminder. Quora prevents internal redirects to new pages. With enough know-how these can be worked around but it is an effort and I often find myself making the undesirable choice between doing the work around, ignoring the content, or signing up for an account.

tomphoolery 10y ago
Is signing up for an account really that big of a deal to you?
- myowncrapulence 10y ago
  Did you even read the post? This is about avoiding tracking. And yes, signing up for accounts can be grueling. Try making a google account without submitting a blood sample.
  - StevePerkins 10y ago
    Wat? It's been years since I created my "real" Google account, so I just created "fakeasdlkvjasklfvjasdkljfgasdf@gmail.com" out of curiosity. It literally took 20 seconds, with a fake name and birthday. There are form fields for your phone number and alternate email address, but you can leave them blank.
    - takeda 10y ago
      Can you create a new account on every visit? If not you essentially volunteered to uniquely identify yourself.
      - dpark 10y ago
        Whether you want to opt out of tracking is irrelevant to the BS claim that it's difficult to create a google account. StevePerkins was specifically responding to the difficulty claim.
    - ryandrake 10y ago
      bugmenot.com still works. Although an even better solution would be a browser plugin or add-on that, with one click, creates and logs in via a fake account populated with fake, throwaway info, changing every time you visit the site. Don't just avoid tracking, poison it. I'd help fund that kickstarter.
      - hackalaugh 10y ago
        potentially related, Marlinspike's Google Sharing: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/googlesharing-a-way-to-prevent-tracking-by-google/ http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/googlesharing-a...
      - eriknstr 10y ago
        Even if you did that I think there are a lot of ways to identify you, using everything from your browsing patterns -- what sites, when and for how long -- to even just the account creation process itself; you'll still need to complete the captcha and with the "click all images that match" captchas that Google is currently using on reCAPTCHA (which btw was quite a bait-and-switch; they originally got a lot of people to use reCAPTCHA because the original purpose was to help book scanning, "read books, stop spam", remember?) as far as I've come to understand continuously sends your cursor position to Google servers, and with the movement data and the order and the timing that you press the images I would not be surprised if there was a pattern that uniquely identified you there. Likewise websites that stream your input key by key instead of submitting the text when you press the submit button should in theory be able to easily identify you by the timing of your keypresses. I've only heard of a couple of instances of sending keys as-you-type but I think that if someone made the kind of project you spoke of above, then we would start seeing more tactics like the kinds I mention in order to counter that. Even if you then proceed to disable JavaScript globally and only browse the web in 1.0 style with user-initiated GET and POST, the way that you write has some uniqueness to it that might be possible to identify.
        ggggtez 10y ago
        I think it you want to make browsing data completely anonymous you're going to have to download a snapshot of the internet and unplug your connection. Unfortunately, that's really not the user experience most people want.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - tripzilch 10y ago
      Just tried this (again) and it does require me to enter a phone number. See here: http://i.imgur.com/LFZjcvG.png http://i.imgur.com/LFZjcvG.png I used to think it was dependent on the IP from which you register, like whether it was a home connection or something shared with many people (like in a train or café), when obviously you'd want to use the latter (and definitely not the IP from which you've been mainly accessing your main Google account for years). But this time I did try it from my home connection, which is in the Netherlands (though I selected "Germany" for my home country because Fravia+ has taught me well). I wonder what makes the difference. Maybe if I had a US-based IP? Could be something with EU privacy laws. It should just clearly tell me, though. Now, I won't whine about it when Google doesn't want to give me something for free. I will, however, whine about it when Google pretends I should hand over the thing it wants at no cost but for my own benefit. I will also whine about it when it purposefully obfuscates the cost/benefits and leaves me guessing like this. If it's a trade it wants, either be upfront about it, or be shady business.
  - ssully 10y ago
    A blood sample? The only fields they ask for that might be too much for someone is a phone number and prior email, and neither is required to make an account. I take my privacy very seriously and understand a lot of the apprehension about Google's tracking, but I think you are being a little ridiculous.
    - myowncrapulence 10y ago
      I've never been able to sign-up for a google account without entering a valid phone number. Even typing 555-5555 it will state it needs a valid phone number.
      - thedudemabry 10y ago
        I had thought this was the case as well, but just tried signing up for a throwaway google account from the US browser homepage and it seemed to go through without a phone number or alternative email.
      - codedokode 10y ago
        It probably depends on your IP address and how many accounts were registered using it (if your ISP uses NAT then many users share a single address) and maybe other factors like country etc.
      - HeshamA 10y ago
        From Dubai. Didn't need to enter a phone number or a recovery email to create an account
    - divbit 10y ago
      You "can" sign up for gmail without a phone number (iirc it's fairly difficult, and you need to do something like use a fresh install of an android device or something to trigger the right sequence of dialogues). However if you try to use that account outside of the device, they will soon (within a couple of logins) ask you for a phone number for "security purposes," - the dialogue says something like "there is something suspicious about this login" at which point your account is linked to whatever other accounts have your phone number (unless you have an unlimited supply of burner phones). - Note that I am remembering this from when I tried specifically to create an unlinked gmail account around nov 2015-jan 2016 (I used a formatted nexus 7 to do it), so things may have changed, maybe details are slightly off from memory.
  - weberc2 10y ago
    Why would Google create a high barrier of entry to get you on their platform? Their entire business model is based on tracking and advertising, so they have every incentive to lower this barrier to the greatest degree possible.
    - omginternets 10y ago
      It's about having high-quality information about these people. Google would rather have fewer people that are more valuable.
      - weberc2 10y ago
        Seriously? Their business is advertising and their technology depends on big data and is designed to scale, and they offer all of their services for free. It seems like they have a huge incentive to know as much as possible about as many as possible.
- syphilis2 10y ago
  Each user will have their own reasons, but if it's a big enough deal that websites will try to strongarm users into signing up then I believe it's likely a big enough deal for users as well.
- mtgx 10y ago
  Try signing into your Google account in Chrome. It will track everything you then search in the address bar, even if you have paused Google history.
- pfranz 10y ago
  Pinterest and Twitter really bug me. I usually hit Pinterest when doing a google image search looking for a product page to buy something. By hitting Pinterest I'm clicking through to the product page (which I would have preferred if that was my result instead), so it's not much different to me than blogspam. I really liked the idea of Pinterest and could see myself browsing and maybe eventually creating one, but the casual experience is so user-hostile I avoid it. Twitter has been similar because their landing page has been useless (when not logged in) and no search box. Usually I hear about a tweet I want to see for myself. I'll go to twitter.com, then leave and go to Google to search for it. Looking now twitter.com has changed dramatically and now has a search box. I, like most people, are lurkers and consumers. I lurked here for awhile and I lurk in a lot of communities. At some point I may sign up and contribute, but if my lurking experience is terrible I won't make it that far. I realize this isn't what companies want, and I guess I'm not the "normal" use-case because if I was they wouldn't have anybody sign up. I have a Twitter account, but don't see the value in signing in on every device for my casual use.
  - LordFrith 10y ago
    You can use Twitter's website to search Twitter without being logged in. Go to https://twitter.com/search https://twitter.com/search
    - pdimitar 10y ago
      You are only proving @pfranz's point. There's no search bar, there isn't even a "Search" link on the home page. One would be encouraged to think they are doing this on purpose.
- jlarocco 10y ago
  The question you should be asking is whether letting me see Pintrest or Quora content (for example) without an account is really that big of a deal? FWIW, I won't sign up for those two sites specifically because of the sleazy way they get their content show up in search results, but don't let people see the content without an account once they get there.
KirinDave 10y ago
Right, but the simple truth is: people do it. They don't mind doing it. Especially when the alternative is terrible user experience. The vast majority of tools named when these conversations come up are demonstrably worse from a UX perspective. Free software does not get a pass on UX because it is free. There are many reasons why that is, but we have to recognize it is true.
- marssaxman 10y ago
  Do we know that they don't mind doing it? I suspect most people don't like it, but do it anyway, because they see no practical alternative. People sure complain about Facebook a lot.
  - tripzilch 10y ago
    Among all the non-tech oriented people I know, the only ones that say they don't mind, do so because they feel powerless about it but "need" Facebook. You actually need some tech knowledge to be able to rationalize this endless being pushed and shoved around like cattle as some kind of worthwhile trade-off.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  Overgeneralizing a bit here. I agree than many people do, but some don't. I mind and I never create an account on websites trying those dirty tricks on me and I know a bunch of people who do the same.
codedokode 10y ago
Does it even work? I interpret such behaviour as "you are not welcome here" and close the page.
- funkyy 10y ago
  Sometimes there is important information behind those that you need, so you are forced to look for walkarounds.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Of course it works. That's like the only way to get loads of new users.
  - AstralStorm 10y ago
    Dead users. It would be great to just use a throwaway email to bypass the stupidity of only they wouldn't block those. (this is also why sign up process is complex)
- emsy 10y ago
  For me too. Whenever I do need something from Quora I disable their register coercion with a ?share=fuckyou query param. However, most non tech-users I know will simply enter their email and a password because it's so simple and they don't see the problem with this dark pattern.
  - neillyons 10y ago
    There is a Chrome extension that will redirect the Quora links to ?share=1 automatically. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/block-quora-login-popup/fkbnfnaikpdihahjljbigedkangbieih https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/block-quora-login-...
  - Twisell 10y ago
    Thank for the tip! I was stuck on that stupid register screen last week and just resigned and look elsewhere. Maybe if I can actually have a grasp of what quora can do for me BEFORE subscribing I might someday consider joining. PS: This is exactly the same crap for web based startup, usually the more they hide they're "sass live demo" under a trial subscribe-wall, the more I'm supspicious. Often with reason as product are shitty. When on the opposite you have a big "try me link" (and possibly even a "see the source on GitHub") I already have a good impression on the product...
ivan_gammel 10y ago
UX is usually worse for non-customers because the main product offering of many online services simply cannot exist without strong relationship with customer (probably Quora is not the case). Because of that, experience of registered users receives much more attention. Most of the world is happy with it and is not going to deprive themselves from cool stuff on privacy grounds. I'd say it's counterproductive to fight against collecting personal data by corporations, because corps do need it to make service better. Instead, it should be better regulated, possibly, similarly to financial organizations by requiring independent privacy audit etc.
- ptero 10y ago
  Non-registered users lacking some functionality due to the lack of attention is not the problem. The problem is companies conciously making it hard for non-registered users to access the service. Deploying various annoying partial screen blockers is not the lack of attention -- it is the opposite.
- gohrt 10y ago
  The forced-login isn't to improve product quality, it's to make more money on ads. StackOverflow/Exchange works great without forced login to view content.
  - sdenton4 10y ago
    whynotboth.gif Stack overflow works better when people provide answers and feedback on prior answers; persistent login greatly increases the chance that someone will leave a reply, which in turn helps future users.
    - AstralStorm 10y ago
      The difference is that SO doesn't force you to log in to be usable, as its revenue profile does not require it to.
    - Twisell 10y ago
      Nope this is directly linked to ad revenues because StackOverflow don't care about them they can offer freedom. And if they ever get into financial difficulty you can count on me to subscribe to a paying "gold membership" and I still won't care if broken students get the same content for free and without login. You never wondered why there is very few fake account on stackoverflow as compared to ad based social network?
zem 10y ago
i stopped using pinterest the minute i discovered they were doing this, despite already having created an account. likewise, i tend to avoid quora links. facebook i don't mind so much because it feels more like social networking than part of (what should be) the open internet.

tomphoolery 10y ago

Is signing up for an account really that big of a deal to you?

myowncrapulence 10y ago
Did you even read the post? This is about avoiding tracking. And yes, signing up for accounts can be grueling. Try making a google account without submitting a blood sample.
- StevePerkins 10y ago
  Wat? It's been years since I created my "real" Google account, so I just created "fakeasdlkvjasklfvjasdkljfgasdf@gmail.com" out of curiosity. It literally took 20 seconds, with a fake name and birthday. There are form fields for your phone number and alternate email address, but you can leave them blank.
  - takeda 10y ago
    Can you create a new account on every visit? If not you essentially volunteered to uniquely identify yourself.
    - dpark 10y ago
      Whether you want to opt out of tracking is irrelevant to the BS claim that it's difficult to create a google account. StevePerkins was specifically responding to the difficulty claim.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    bugmenot.com still works. Although an even better solution would be a browser plugin or add-on that, with one click, creates and logs in via a fake account populated with fake, throwaway info, changing every time you visit the site. Don't just avoid tracking, poison it. I'd help fund that kickstarter.
    - hackalaugh 10y ago
      potentially related, Marlinspike's Google Sharing: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/googlesharing-a-way-to-prevent-tracking-by-google/ http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/googlesharing-a...
    - eriknstr 10y ago
      Even if you did that I think there are a lot of ways to identify you, using everything from your browsing patterns -- what sites, when and for how long -- to even just the account creation process itself; you'll still need to complete the captcha and with the "click all images that match" captchas that Google is currently using on reCAPTCHA (which btw was quite a bait-and-switch; they originally got a lot of people to use reCAPTCHA because the original purpose was to help book scanning, "read books, stop spam", remember?) as far as I've come to understand continuously sends your cursor position to Google servers, and with the movement data and the order and the timing that you press the images I would not be surprised if there was a pattern that uniquely identified you there. Likewise websites that stream your input key by key instead of submitting the text when you press the submit button should in theory be able to easily identify you by the timing of your keypresses. I've only heard of a couple of instances of sending keys as-you-type but I think that if someone made the kind of project you spoke of above, then we would start seeing more tactics like the kinds I mention in order to counter that. Even if you then proceed to disable JavaScript globally and only browse the web in 1.0 style with user-initiated GET and POST, the way that you write has some uniqueness to it that might be possible to identify.
      - ggggtez 10y ago
        I think it you want to make browsing data completely anonymous you're going to have to download a snapshot of the internet and unplug your connection. Unfortunately, that's really not the user experience most people want.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - tripzilch 10y ago
    Just tried this (again) and it does require me to enter a phone number. See here: http://i.imgur.com/LFZjcvG.png http://i.imgur.com/LFZjcvG.png I used to think it was dependent on the IP from which you register, like whether it was a home connection or something shared with many people (like in a train or café), when obviously you'd want to use the latter (and definitely not the IP from which you've been mainly accessing your main Google account for years). But this time I did try it from my home connection, which is in the Netherlands (though I selected "Germany" for my home country because Fravia+ has taught me well). I wonder what makes the difference. Maybe if I had a US-based IP? Could be something with EU privacy laws. It should just clearly tell me, though. Now, I won't whine about it when Google doesn't want to give me something for free. I will, however, whine about it when Google pretends I should hand over the thing it wants at no cost but for my own benefit. I will also whine about it when it purposefully obfuscates the cost/benefits and leaves me guessing like this. If it's a trade it wants, either be upfront about it, or be shady business.
- ssully 10y ago
  A blood sample? The only fields they ask for that might be too much for someone is a phone number and prior email, and neither is required to make an account. I take my privacy very seriously and understand a lot of the apprehension about Google's tracking, but I think you are being a little ridiculous.
  - myowncrapulence 10y ago
    I've never been able to sign-up for a google account without entering a valid phone number. Even typing 555-5555 it will state it needs a valid phone number.
    - thedudemabry 10y ago
      I had thought this was the case as well, but just tried signing up for a throwaway google account from the US browser homepage and it seemed to go through without a phone number or alternative email.
    - codedokode 10y ago
      It probably depends on your IP address and how many accounts were registered using it (if your ISP uses NAT then many users share a single address) and maybe other factors like country etc.
    - HeshamA 10y ago
      From Dubai. Didn't need to enter a phone number or a recovery email to create an account
  - divbit 10y ago
    You "can" sign up for gmail without a phone number (iirc it's fairly difficult, and you need to do something like use a fresh install of an android device or something to trigger the right sequence of dialogues). However if you try to use that account outside of the device, they will soon (within a couple of logins) ask you for a phone number for "security purposes," - the dialogue says something like "there is something suspicious about this login" at which point your account is linked to whatever other accounts have your phone number (unless you have an unlimited supply of burner phones). - Note that I am remembering this from when I tried specifically to create an unlinked gmail account around nov 2015-jan 2016 (I used a formatted nexus 7 to do it), so things may have changed, maybe details are slightly off from memory.
- weberc2 10y ago
  Why would Google create a high barrier of entry to get you on their platform? Their entire business model is based on tracking and advertising, so they have every incentive to lower this barrier to the greatest degree possible.
  - omginternets 10y ago
    It's about having high-quality information about these people. Google would rather have fewer people that are more valuable.
    - weberc2 10y ago
      Seriously? Their business is advertising and their technology depends on big data and is designed to scale, and they offer all of their services for free. It seems like they have a huge incentive to know as much as possible about as many as possible.
syphilis2 10y ago
Each user will have their own reasons, but if it's a big enough deal that websites will try to strongarm users into signing up then I believe it's likely a big enough deal for users as well.
mtgx 10y ago
Try signing into your Google account in Chrome. It will track everything you then search in the address bar, even if you have paused Google history.
pfranz 10y ago
Pinterest and Twitter really bug me. I usually hit Pinterest when doing a google image search looking for a product page to buy something. By hitting Pinterest I'm clicking through to the product page (which I would have preferred if that was my result instead), so it's not much different to me than blogspam. I really liked the idea of Pinterest and could see myself browsing and maybe eventually creating one, but the casual experience is so user-hostile I avoid it. Twitter has been similar because their landing page has been useless (when not logged in) and no search box. Usually I hear about a tweet I want to see for myself. I'll go to twitter.com, then leave and go to Google to search for it. Looking now twitter.com has changed dramatically and now has a search box. I, like most people, are lurkers and consumers. I lurked here for awhile and I lurk in a lot of communities. At some point I may sign up and contribute, but if my lurking experience is terrible I won't make it that far. I realize this isn't what companies want, and I guess I'm not the "normal" use-case because if I was they wouldn't have anybody sign up. I have a Twitter account, but don't see the value in signing in on every device for my casual use.
- LordFrith 10y ago
  You can use Twitter's website to search Twitter without being logged in. Go to https://twitter.com/search https://twitter.com/search
  - pdimitar 10y ago
    You are only proving @pfranz's point. There's no search bar, there isn't even a "Search" link on the home page. One would be encouraged to think they are doing this on purpose.
jlarocco 10y ago
The question you should be asking is whether letting me see Pintrest or Quora content (for example) without an account is really that big of a deal? FWIW, I won't sign up for those two sites specifically because of the sleazy way they get their content show up in search results, but don't let people see the content without an account once they get there.

KirinDave 10y ago

Right, but the simple truth is: people do it. They don't mind doing it. Especially when the alternative is terrible user experience. The vast majority of tools named when these conversations come up are demonstrably worse from a UX perspective. Free software does not get a pass on UX because it is free. There are many reasons why that is, but we have to recognize it is true.

marssaxman 10y ago
Do we know that they don't mind doing it? I suspect most people don't like it, but do it anyway, because they see no practical alternative. People sure complain about Facebook a lot.
- tripzilch 10y ago
  Among all the non-tech oriented people I know, the only ones that say they don't mind, do so because they feel powerless about it but "need" Facebook. You actually need some tech knowledge to be able to rationalize this endless being pushed and shoved around like cattle as some kind of worthwhile trade-off.
bigbugbag 10y ago
Overgeneralizing a bit here. I agree than many people do, but some don't. I mind and I never create an account on websites trying those dirty tricks on me and I know a bunch of people who do the same.

codedokode 10y ago

Does it even work? I interpret such behaviour as "you are not welcome here" and close the page.

funkyy 10y ago
Sometimes there is important information behind those that you need, so you are forced to look for walkarounds.
user5994461 10y ago
Of course it works. That's like the only way to get loads of new users.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Dead users. It would be great to just use a throwaway email to bypass the stupidity of only they wouldn't block those. (this is also why sign up process is complex)
emsy 10y ago
For me too. Whenever I do need something from Quora I disable their register coercion with a ?share=fuckyou query param. However, most non tech-users I know will simply enter their email and a password because it's so simple and they don't see the problem with this dark pattern.
- neillyons 10y ago
  There is a Chrome extension that will redirect the Quora links to ?share=1 automatically. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/block-quora-login-popup/fkbnfnaikpdihahjljbigedkangbieih https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/block-quora-login-...
- Twisell 10y ago
  Thank for the tip! I was stuck on that stupid register screen last week and just resigned and look elsewhere. Maybe if I can actually have a grasp of what quora can do for me BEFORE subscribing I might someday consider joining. PS: This is exactly the same crap for web based startup, usually the more they hide they're "sass live demo" under a trial subscribe-wall, the more I'm supspicious. Often with reason as product are shitty. When on the opposite you have a big "try me link" (and possibly even a "see the source on GitHub") I already have a good impression on the product...

ivan_gammel 10y ago

UX is usually worse for non-customers because the main product offering of many online services simply cannot exist without strong relationship with customer (probably Quora is not the case). Because of that, experience of registered users receives much more attention. Most of the world is happy with it and is not going to deprive themselves from cool stuff on privacy grounds. I'd say it's counterproductive to fight against collecting personal data by corporations, because corps do need it to make service better. Instead, it should be better regulated, possibly, similarly to financial organizations by requiring independent privacy audit etc.

ptero 10y ago
Non-registered users lacking some functionality due to the lack of attention is not the problem. The problem is companies conciously making it hard for non-registered users to access the service. Deploying various annoying partial screen blockers is not the lack of attention -- it is the opposite.
gohrt 10y ago
The forced-login isn't to improve product quality, it's to make more money on ads. StackOverflow/Exchange works great without forced login to view content.
- sdenton4 10y ago
  whynotboth.gif Stack overflow works better when people provide answers and feedback on prior answers; persistent login greatly increases the chance that someone will leave a reply, which in turn helps future users.
  - AstralStorm 10y ago
    The difference is that SO doesn't force you to log in to be usable, as its revenue profile does not require it to.
  - Twisell 10y ago
    Nope this is directly linked to ad revenues because StackOverflow don't care about them they can offer freedom. And if they ever get into financial difficulty you can count on me to subscribe to a paying "gold membership" and I still won't care if broken students get the same content for free and without login. You never wondered why there is very few fake account on stackoverflow as compared to ad based social network?

zem 10y ago

i stopped using pinterest the minute i discovered they were doing this, despite already having created an account. likewise, i tend to avoid quora links. facebook i don't mind so much because it feels more like social networking than part of (what should be) the open internet.