5 ms·

I have run into this kind of automated bureaucracy several times in the last decade. It is both infuriating and frightening. My mortgage was sold to a new comp

I have run into this kind of automated bureaucracy several times in the last decade. It is both infuriating and frightening. My mortgage was sold to a new company that had a weird computer-directed policy that rejected my home owner's insurance. They then flagged me as not having insurance and charged me over $1,000 for providing insurance. I spent hours on the phone speaking with people in India who absolutely would not send my proof of insurance up the chain of command. It wasn't until I was able to find the CEO of the mortgage company and contact her directly to explain my situation that it was finally resolved... for six months when the automated system rejected my home owners insurance again. I eventually had to refinance the home to get out from under this soulless company's grip. Institutions like the Better Business Bureau used to protect consumers from this kind of abuse, but the complaints I have registered with them have achieved nothing. If I was poor, this situation would have financially ruined me. I would have missed mortgage payments, my home would have been foreclosed on, and my credit would have been ruined for years. I highly recommend the science fiction film "Brazil" to anyone who wants to see the dystopia this kind of automated rules-enforcement could create. "Brazil" is the book "Nineteen Eighty-Four" but the totalitarian government rules with a system of overwhelming bureaucracy. The problem here is that it is the Capitalists who are the oppressors.

ebbv 10y ago
The BBB does nothing. It's just the Yelp of the past. They don't help mediate disputes they just extort business owners. If the owner pays enough money they can get rid of negative reviews. It's crap. The only thing that will do you any good against a company like that is hiring a lawyer and it sounds like you should have done that in the first month.
- ideonexus 10y ago
  The cost of a lawyer was more than the amount of money under dispute. It may have felt good to take the company to court and win, but the cost of representation plus the leave time I would have had to burn to spend time in court and satisfy all the discovery paperwork requests would have cost much much more than what the company was charging me. How does it make sense to spend so much time and money over such a small claim? And what about people who can't afford lawyers? Why does any American citizen have to spend exorbitant amounts of time and money disputing something that should be resolvable with a phone call?
  - matheusmoreira 10y ago
    If one can't afford a lawyer, the state should provide one. Is this not how it works? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a professor who's also a lawyer, and he said something that resonated with me: "The law isn't about what's convenient [or profitable], it's about what's right." People who have been wronged can take things far beyond what would be "reasonable". The mere presence of a lawyer changes every interaction you have with any institution. It makes ignoring you a far more risky endeavor.
    - scaryspooky 10y ago
      > If one can't afford a lawyer, the state should provide one. Not for civil matters, at least in the US. You are only guaranteed a lawyer for criminal charges.
    - ensignavenger 10y ago
      In actuality, the state will only provide you a lawyer to defend you in a criminal case, and then only certain criminal cases (I think in Missouri it is cases where the penalty is normally jail time, not cases where they normally only fine you, like traffic ticket). Even then, state provided legal defense is usually horrendous- public defenders are very over worked and simply don't have the time to help their clients. There should be legal counsel available, and it should be a lot easier to navigate the system; but unfortunate in the US (and probably most other countries) that is simply not the reality.
    - jellicle 10y ago
      In the U.S., there is no right to a lawyer for any civil case, and for that matter not even in a criminal case. You have to be both destitute and a criminal defendant to receive a court-appointed lawyer. Many people believe that all criminal defendants are entitled to a lawyer at government expense, but in fact they are not. Unless you are indigent, you'll be required to hire a lawyer yourself or do without.
  - ensignavenger 10y ago
    Small Claims Court is often a much more affordable option. Still have to take some leave, though.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  > It's just the Yelp of the past. More accurately it's the Yelp of a generation. I work for a 100+ year old charity that is trying to modernize while not abandoning it's constituent base which is primarily seniors at this point. There's a weird internal schism going on because we're trying to appeal to the younger generation but we have to keep one foot in the past and maintain crap like our BBB rating because our base demands it. As the Greatest Generation dies off, I think so too will old institutions like the BBB but for businesses that cater to that generation they're still relevant.
geuis 10y ago
The Better Business Bureau is not a US govt organization. It's a 501c3. They only provide moderation to businesses that subscribe to them ($€£¥) and even then its non binding. BBB is a decades old joke. Glad you mentioned Brazil. Was thinking the same thing as I was reading the first part of your comment.
ssharp 10y ago
Yes, the fact that you're already upset, combined with seemingly no ability to resolve the situation is incredibly infuriating. I guess the side benefit of today's age is that it's not too difficult to find people high up in the company to contact. I usually do these things to resolve issues that can't be resolved through support systems: 1) Search LinkedIn for higher ups in the company who could help 2) Search Google to try and find the email format the company uses for it's company email... e.g. first.last@company.com or flast@company.com 3) Write a clear and concise account of the problem and either include every executive you find or BCC them all I had an issue with Babies R Us where they shipped me a piece of furniture that was destroyed at some point in the logistics process. I contacted support about it and they kept wanting to charge me return shipping fees and told me to take it to a B&M store to avoid that. So I took it to a local store and they said they couldn't process the return but would ship the item back for me and that I needed to contact the phone support to update them on the situation. I did that and phone support had no ability to sort things out with the store. At that point it had been nearly two weeks and I was charged the money but no longer had the item, as I had left it at the store. I began the charge back process but executed my tactics above and got multiple executive responses by the end of the day. I've done this with multiple companies in the past and it has ALWAYS worked. It sucks that this is what you have to do but at least it's an option.
- CPLX 10y ago
  That's an excellent way to go about it. Also similar, and effective, is to write a formal letter on actual paper, outlining the issue clearly, and send it Fedex overnight to the executive in question. That'll usually get some kind of response. Sending it to the attention of the General Counsel of the company can be particularly effective, since it can generate the kind of attention that an attorney letter would get, even though you haven't had to pay an attorney.
- sisedi 10y ago
  AnyMail helps shortcut this process, used it several times with much success.
josh_fyi 10y ago
Complaints to the insurance commissioners can be surprisingly effective.
- awful 10y ago
  Also, depending on the problem, a complaint to the Federal Government's Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, can be highly influential. I had an issue with PayPal and got a direct response from the CFO who cleared up the issue. http://www.consumerfinance.gov/ http://www.consumerfinance.gov/
codegeek 10y ago
Sorry to hear that. I want to add a side note on this for people considering a mortgage. We never think about the fact that your mortgage could be sold to another company when going for a mortgage. So unless you get the mortgage from one of the big guns like wells fargo etc, there is a good chance that the "smaller" mortgage firm that gave you a great rate will repackage your mortgage and wash their hands off it. This can throw things off for you as you are left to deal with a new company who can impose their shitty policies on you and you didn't even choose them.
- uiri 10y ago
  How exactly does this work? You have a contract with company X. Company X sells your payments to company Y. Your payments per the contract should still be going to company X unless the contract stipulates otherwise - that they can have you do the payment forwarding for them. Neither company can alter the contract you signed; that's not how contacts work. Any policy that is material to your mortgage should be in the contract. So what kind of shitty things can company Y do?
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    Your mortgage contract will undoubtedly include language indicating it can be sold to another company.
    - mgkimsal 10y ago
      Yep, and pretty much every mortgage I've had (or seen - I worked at a mortgage company for a while) included this language, and was pretty up front about it. I've never seen terms change (like prepayment penalties, etc), but who you send payments to can change. ONE time, I had a mortgage sold to another servicer, and that servicer had "each electronic payment requires a $3 fee". THAT one ticked me off. Yes, I can still send paper checks, which are subject to getting 'lost' or 'delayed', but electronic xfer? $3. I did not sign up for that, but have no choice about who services this loan. :/ (refinanced and left - that's about the only recourse you have, and it often involves hefty fees as well)
bsandert 10y ago
This also reminds me of a talk by Maxim Februari at the most recent TEDx Amsterdam[0]. From the description: The infrastructure of connected things [..] imposes norms on citizens. Not in the form of written laws: the norms are hidden in the design of things. Citizens can’t protest the new laws, or change them, because they do not know them. And because decisions are made automatically, the laws can’t even be violated [..] [0]: https://youtu.be/qIVTKBeiabI https://youtu.be/qIVTKBeiabI (skip to 2:30 to get to the meat directly)
awful 10y ago
I mentioned it below, but the Federal Government's Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, has been very helpful to me in the past with PayPal. http://www.consumerfinance.gov/ http://www.consumerfinance.gov/

ebbv 10y ago

The BBB does nothing. It's just the Yelp of the past. They don't help mediate disputes they just extort business owners. If the owner pays enough money they can get rid of negative reviews. It's crap. The only thing that will do you any good against a company like that is hiring a lawyer and it sounds like you should have done that in the first month.

ideonexus 10y ago
The cost of a lawyer was more than the amount of money under dispute. It may have felt good to take the company to court and win, but the cost of representation plus the leave time I would have had to burn to spend time in court and satisfy all the discovery paperwork requests would have cost much much more than what the company was charging me. How does it make sense to spend so much time and money over such a small claim? And what about people who can't afford lawyers? Why does any American citizen have to spend exorbitant amounts of time and money disputing something that should be resolvable with a phone call?
- matheusmoreira 10y ago
  If one can't afford a lawyer, the state should provide one. Is this not how it works? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a professor who's also a lawyer, and he said something that resonated with me: "The law isn't about what's convenient [or profitable], it's about what's right." People who have been wronged can take things far beyond what would be "reasonable". The mere presence of a lawyer changes every interaction you have with any institution. It makes ignoring you a far more risky endeavor.
  - scaryspooky 10y ago
    > If one can't afford a lawyer, the state should provide one. Not for civil matters, at least in the US. You are only guaranteed a lawyer for criminal charges.
  - ensignavenger 10y ago
    In actuality, the state will only provide you a lawyer to defend you in a criminal case, and then only certain criminal cases (I think in Missouri it is cases where the penalty is normally jail time, not cases where they normally only fine you, like traffic ticket). Even then, state provided legal defense is usually horrendous- public defenders are very over worked and simply don't have the time to help their clients. There should be legal counsel available, and it should be a lot easier to navigate the system; but unfortunate in the US (and probably most other countries) that is simply not the reality.
  - jellicle 10y ago
    In the U.S., there is no right to a lawyer for any civil case, and for that matter not even in a criminal case. You have to be both destitute and a criminal defendant to receive a court-appointed lawyer. Many people believe that all criminal defendants are entitled to a lawyer at government expense, but in fact they are not. Unless you are indigent, you'll be required to hire a lawyer yourself or do without.
- ensignavenger 10y ago
  Small Claims Court is often a much more affordable option. Still have to take some leave, though.
cptskippy 10y ago
> It's just the Yelp of the past. More accurately it's the Yelp of a generation. I work for a 100+ year old charity that is trying to modernize while not abandoning it's constituent base which is primarily seniors at this point. There's a weird internal schism going on because we're trying to appeal to the younger generation but we have to keep one foot in the past and maintain crap like our BBB rating because our base demands it. As the Greatest Generation dies off, I think so too will old institutions like the BBB but for businesses that cater to that generation they're still relevant.

geuis 10y ago

The Better Business Bureau is not a US govt organization. It's a 501c3. They only provide moderation to businesses that subscribe to them ($€£¥) and even then its non binding. BBB is a decades old joke. Glad you mentioned Brazil. Was thinking the same thing as I was reading the first part of your comment.

ssharp 10y ago

Yes, the fact that you're already upset, combined with seemingly no ability to resolve the situation is incredibly infuriating. I guess the side benefit of today's age is that it's not too difficult to find people high up in the company to contact. I usually do these things to resolve issues that can't be resolved through support systems: 1) Search LinkedIn for higher ups in the company who could help 2) Search Google to try and find the email format the company uses for it's company email... e.g. first.last@company.com or flast@company.com 3) Write a clear and concise account of the problem and either include every executive you find or BCC them all I had an issue with Babies R Us where they shipped me a piece of furniture that was destroyed at some point in the logistics process. I contacted support about it and they kept wanting to charge me return shipping fees and told me to take it to a B&M store to avoid that. So I took it to a local store and they said they couldn't process the return but would ship the item back for me and that I needed to contact the phone support to update them on the situation. I did that and phone support had no ability to sort things out with the store. At that point it had been nearly two weeks and I was charged the money but no longer had the item, as I had left it at the store. I began the charge back process but executed my tactics above and got multiple executive responses by the end of the day. I've done this with multiple companies in the past and it has ALWAYS worked. It sucks that this is what you have to do but at least it's an option.

CPLX 10y ago
That's an excellent way to go about it. Also similar, and effective, is to write a formal letter on actual paper, outlining the issue clearly, and send it Fedex overnight to the executive in question. That'll usually get some kind of response. Sending it to the attention of the General Counsel of the company can be particularly effective, since it can generate the kind of attention that an attorney letter would get, even though you haven't had to pay an attorney.
sisedi 10y ago
AnyMail helps shortcut this process, used it several times with much success.

josh_fyi 10y ago

Complaints to the insurance commissioners can be surprisingly effective.

awful 10y ago
Also, depending on the problem, a complaint to the Federal Government's Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, can be highly influential. I had an issue with PayPal and got a direct response from the CFO who cleared up the issue. http://www.consumerfinance.gov/ http://www.consumerfinance.gov/

codegeek 10y ago

Sorry to hear that. I want to add a side note on this for people considering a mortgage. We never think about the fact that your mortgage could be sold to another company when going for a mortgage. So unless you get the mortgage from one of the big guns like wells fargo etc, there is a good chance that the "smaller" mortgage firm that gave you a great rate will repackage your mortgage and wash their hands off it. This can throw things off for you as you are left to deal with a new company who can impose their shitty policies on you and you didn't even choose them.

uiri 10y ago
How exactly does this work? You have a contract with company X. Company X sells your payments to company Y. Your payments per the contract should still be going to company X unless the contract stipulates otherwise - that they can have you do the payment forwarding for them. Neither company can alter the contract you signed; that's not how contacts work. Any policy that is material to your mortgage should be in the contract. So what kind of shitty things can company Y do?
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  Your mortgage contract will undoubtedly include language indicating it can be sold to another company.
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    Yep, and pretty much every mortgage I've had (or seen - I worked at a mortgage company for a while) included this language, and was pretty up front about it. I've never seen terms change (like prepayment penalties, etc), but who you send payments to can change. ONE time, I had a mortgage sold to another servicer, and that servicer had "each electronic payment requires a $3 fee". THAT one ticked me off. Yes, I can still send paper checks, which are subject to getting 'lost' or 'delayed', but electronic xfer? $3. I did not sign up for that, but have no choice about who services this loan. :/ (refinanced and left - that's about the only recourse you have, and it often involves hefty fees as well)

bsandert 10y ago

This also reminds me of a talk by Maxim Februari at the most recent TEDx Amsterdam[0]. From the description: The infrastructure of connected things [..] imposes norms on citizens. Not in the form of written laws: the norms are hidden in the design of things. Citizens can’t protest the new laws, or change them, because they do not know them. And because decisions are made automatically, the laws can’t even be violated [..] [0]: https://youtu.be/qIVTKBeiabI https://youtu.be/qIVTKBeiabI (skip to 2:30 to get to the meat directly)

awful 10y ago

I mentioned it below, but the Federal Government's Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, has been very helpful to me in the past with PayPal. http://www.consumerfinance.gov/ http://www.consumerfinance.gov/