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Newsletter #7 - Summer of Road

131 points by lwakefield 10y ago

xwvvvvwx 10y ago
Slow, incremental, consistent, disciplined hard work leads to amazing results. Congratulations and huge thanks to the maintainers, I use neovim every day and love it.
- chairmanwow 10y ago
  I read that article and didn't get a good handle on any features that would motivate a transition from Vim. Any links you could provide?
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    :term to run a terminal in a vim window. Also, much more sensible defaults.
    - ape4 10y ago
      Cool, but why?
      - baq 10y ago
        no more confusing C-w and C-b in tmux, perhaps?
      - JoshTriplett 10y ago
        Avoiding multiple levels of window management, when you want to edit multiple files and have one or more additional terminals available. For instance, I've used this to edit a manpage with a live preview to the side in another window. Doing the same thing with screen would require running vim inside screen, and doing window management with both screen (for terminals) and vim (for everything else).
      - linsomniac 10y ago
        I like being able to have a vim window that has a terminal in it, there are some cases where I just prefer to have it in my terminal environment rather than switching to another real window. Mostly this is for things where I want to be in the same directory as my editor to run greps through my source, etc... It's also nice sometimes to do something and then be able to search through the history with "/". At times I've then gone back and cut and pasted between the terminal output and a document I was working on, rather than using my window manager cut and paste. I was, however, fairly surprised that I could no longer ":sh" out to run something. Had to get used to ":term" or ":spl term://bash".
        espadrine 10y ago
        > I was, however, fairly surprised that I could no longer ":sh" out to run something Honestly, :sh always felt weird in vim. Either you are in a terminal, and Ctrl-Z is a much better experience, since you maintain your existing session. Or you are in the GUI, and the terminal emulation is poor and slow.
      - tommyallen 10y ago
        Speaking practically, if you're using a terminal to use Neovim, you get consistent window management. If you're using one of Neovim's GUI clients, you also get a terminal in the GUI's frame.
    - nilved 10y ago
      An embedded terminal emulator is exactly what Neovim should not have.
      - blueyed 10y ago
        Care to elaborate?
        nilved 10y ago
        Neovim's goal is remove cruft and shrink the codebase. Adding a terminal emulator, a completely orthogonal feature that makes no sense in a text editor to begin with, is contrary to this goal. They wasted time and worked on the wrong thing.
        tommyallen 10y ago
        Vim already allows you to use :shell. Neovim took it a step further with the added benefit that you can treat the output as buffer text. Just because you can't see the advantages this gives developers doesn't mean it was a waste of time.
        nilved 10y ago
        :shell is completely different. That's vim stepping out of the way while you run a subprocess. Moreover, vim having it is not an argument for Neovim to have it. If vim really had a terminal emulator Neovim should have removed it.
  - erikb 10y ago
    Same here. Scrolled through it and the only thing I got is that there is a command called ":smile" which is not worth switching to me. Doesn't mean there is none, it's just hard to find.
    - doppioandante 10y ago
      :smile is a vim command that was introduced in the new version of vim, I'm not sure but it seems like they are making fun of it. There's always been a bit of hostility between the neovim people and Braam, last being the fact that Braam finally implemented jobs in Vim 8, but using a different API than neovim.
  - brotherjerky 10y ago
    For me, I like: - Neomake ( https://github.com/neomake/neomake https://github.com/neomake/neomake ) which I use for async linting. I know this is now working in Vim 8, but I've been using Neovim for a while and this was exclusive for a while. - Vim-test ( https://github.com/janko-m/vim-test https://github.com/janko-m/vim-test ) uses `:term` for running your tests from within vim -- this is most useful because I have a shortcut to test from current editing file, etc. I know this is also possible in vim now. - Mapping Meta keys in terminal -- opens up a bunch more shortcuts that weren't available before - `inccommand` This I believe is only in neovim, and likely not enough for anyone to switch for Cons: - Not in distros, gotta install manually via their PPA
    - blueyed 10y ago
      Thanks for the link to Neomake - Neovim is still a first class citizen for it, and it was a pain to get it working on Vim (and several bugs for Vim have been filed, debugged and fixed in this process).
      - brotherjerky 10y ago
        Thanks for making Neomake!
    - blueyed 10y ago
      Regarding distros: Arch has it.. ;)
virtualwhys 10y ago
For better or worse they awoke the sleeping giant[1]. Curious to see how things play out with the fork (i.e. will vim users stay put or move on to neovim in the coming months/years). [1] https://github.com/vim/vim/graphs/contributors https://github.com/vim/vim/graphs/contributors
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  It's unfortunate that vim introduced similar features for managing running processes, but in a completely incompatible way, such that one vim module can't easily support both.
- rrradical 10y ago
  I'm not sure how it could be 'for worse'? Even Neovim benefits from the uptick in Vim patches, because they actually merge many of them into Neovim. So it seems like it can only be a good thing. Better editors for everyone.
  - nilved 10y ago
    That's one way it could play out, but that's not the way it did play out. Vim ate Neovim's lunch because they took so long to create a release that Vim was able to copy their best features. Worse yet, they did this in a way that is not compatible with Neovim. There is a chasm between Vim and Neovim that is growing, and the incentive to cross it is shrinking. As someone who has watched closely Neovim's development since its announcement, and used it as my daily text editor for literal years, I feel sad to say that it is early-stage vapourware. They kicked vim into action, then vim kicked them out of it.
    - tommyallen 10y ago
      Vim didn't eat Neovim's lunch. It made its own lunch. Vim8's async feature is a copy only in name. Comparing both async APIs, I'm almost certain that Vim8's was added spitefully. It's just so obtuse compared to Neovim's.
brotherjerky 10y ago
As a daily neovim user, love the progress! Here's to a great 2017!
chappi42 10y ago
It's a joy to read such a polite newsletter. Friendly towards to original source. Friendly and open as a community. Everythings seems well organized and distributed. Well done! Also thanks a lot for the tool, I use neovim almost daily.
ape4 10y ago
Is neovim packaged for distros?
- tux3 10y ago
  I've been using Debian's neovim package for the last several months, but I use the unstable repositories. I think it'll be officially packaged in the next Debian release though.
- blueyed 10y ago
  Arch has it: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=neovim https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=neovim The -git version in AUR: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/neovim-git/ https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/neovim-git/.
michaelmior 10y ago
Fantastic work by the Neovim folks as usual. However, this sentence stuck out to me > The API should only grow, not break This seems to ensure eventual bloat.

131 points by lwakefield 10y ago

Slow, incremental, consistent, disciplined hard work leads to amazing results. Congratulations and huge thanks to the maintainers, I use neovim every day and love it.

chairmanwow 10y ago
I read that article and didn't get a good handle on any features that would motivate a transition from Vim. Any links you could provide?
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  :term to run a terminal in a vim window. Also, much more sensible defaults.
  - ape4 10y ago
    Cool, but why?
    - baq 10y ago
      no more confusing C-w and C-b in tmux, perhaps?
    - JoshTriplett 10y ago
      Avoiding multiple levels of window management, when you want to edit multiple files and have one or more additional terminals available. For instance, I've used this to edit a manpage with a live preview to the side in another window. Doing the same thing with screen would require running vim inside screen, and doing window management with both screen (for terminals) and vim (for everything else).
    - linsomniac 10y ago
      I like being able to have a vim window that has a terminal in it, there are some cases where I just prefer to have it in my terminal environment rather than switching to another real window. Mostly this is for things where I want to be in the same directory as my editor to run greps through my source, etc... It's also nice sometimes to do something and then be able to search through the history with "/". At times I've then gone back and cut and pasted between the terminal output and a document I was working on, rather than using my window manager cut and paste. I was, however, fairly surprised that I could no longer ":sh" out to run something. Had to get used to ":term" or ":spl term://bash".
      - espadrine 10y ago
        > I was, however, fairly surprised that I could no longer ":sh" out to run something Honestly, :sh always felt weird in vim. Either you are in a terminal, and Ctrl-Z is a much better experience, since you maintain your existing session. Or you are in the GUI, and the terminal emulation is poor and slow.
    - tommyallen 10y ago
      Speaking practically, if you're using a terminal to use Neovim, you get consistent window management. If you're using one of Neovim's GUI clients, you also get a terminal in the GUI's frame.
  - nilved 10y ago
    An embedded terminal emulator is exactly what Neovim should not have.
    - blueyed 10y ago
      Care to elaborate?
      - nilved 10y ago
        Neovim's goal is remove cruft and shrink the codebase. Adding a terminal emulator, a completely orthogonal feature that makes no sense in a text editor to begin with, is contrary to this goal. They wasted time and worked on the wrong thing.
        tommyallen 10y ago
        Vim already allows you to use :shell. Neovim took it a step further with the added benefit that you can treat the output as buffer text. Just because you can't see the advantages this gives developers doesn't mean it was a waste of time.
        nilved 10y ago
        :shell is completely different. That's vim stepping out of the way while you run a subprocess. Moreover, vim having it is not an argument for Neovim to have it. If vim really had a terminal emulator Neovim should have removed it.
- erikb 10y ago
  Same here. Scrolled through it and the only thing I got is that there is a command called ":smile" which is not worth switching to me. Doesn't mean there is none, it's just hard to find.
  - doppioandante 10y ago
    :smile is a vim command that was introduced in the new version of vim, I'm not sure but it seems like they are making fun of it. There's always been a bit of hostility between the neovim people and Braam, last being the fact that Braam finally implemented jobs in Vim 8, but using a different API than neovim.
- brotherjerky 10y ago
  For me, I like: - Neomake ( https://github.com/neomake/neomake https://github.com/neomake/neomake ) which I use for async linting. I know this is now working in Vim 8, but I've been using Neovim for a while and this was exclusive for a while. - Vim-test ( https://github.com/janko-m/vim-test https://github.com/janko-m/vim-test ) uses `:term` for running your tests from within vim -- this is most useful because I have a shortcut to test from current editing file, etc. I know this is also possible in vim now. - Mapping Meta keys in terminal -- opens up a bunch more shortcuts that weren't available before - `inccommand` This I believe is only in neovim, and likely not enough for anyone to switch for Cons: - Not in distros, gotta install manually via their PPA
  - blueyed 10y ago
    Thanks for the link to Neomake - Neovim is still a first class citizen for it, and it was a pain to get it working on Vim (and several bugs for Vim have been filed, debugged and fixed in this process).
    - brotherjerky 10y ago
      Thanks for making Neomake!
  - blueyed 10y ago
    Regarding distros: Arch has it.. ;)

virtualwhys 10y ago

For better or worse they awoke the sleeping giant[1]. Curious to see how things play out with the fork (i.e. will vim users stay put or move on to neovim in the coming months/years). [1] https://github.com/vim/vim/graphs/contributors https://github.com/vim/vim/graphs/contributors

JoshTriplett 10y ago
It's unfortunate that vim introduced similar features for managing running processes, but in a completely incompatible way, such that one vim module can't easily support both.
rrradical 10y ago
I'm not sure how it could be 'for worse'? Even Neovim benefits from the uptick in Vim patches, because they actually merge many of them into Neovim. So it seems like it can only be a good thing. Better editors for everyone.
- nilved 10y ago
  That's one way it could play out, but that's not the way it did play out. Vim ate Neovim's lunch because they took so long to create a release that Vim was able to copy their best features. Worse yet, they did this in a way that is not compatible with Neovim. There is a chasm between Vim and Neovim that is growing, and the incentive to cross it is shrinking. As someone who has watched closely Neovim's development since its announcement, and used it as my daily text editor for literal years, I feel sad to say that it is early-stage vapourware. They kicked vim into action, then vim kicked them out of it.
  - tommyallen 10y ago
    Vim didn't eat Neovim's lunch. It made its own lunch. Vim8's async feature is a copy only in name. Comparing both async APIs, I'm almost certain that Vim8's was added spitefully. It's just so obtuse compared to Neovim's.

brotherjerky 10y ago

As a daily neovim user, love the progress! Here's to a great 2017!

chappi42 10y ago

It's a joy to read such a polite newsletter. Friendly towards to original source. Friendly and open as a community. Everythings seems well organized and distributed. Well done! Also thanks a lot for the tool, I use neovim almost daily.

ape4 10y ago

Is neovim packaged for distros?

tux3 10y ago
I've been using Debian's neovim package for the last several months, but I use the unstable repositories. I think it'll be officially packaged in the next Debian release though.
blueyed 10y ago
Arch has it: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=neovim https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=neovim The -git version in AUR: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/neovim-git/ https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/neovim-git/.

michaelmior 10y ago

Fantastic work by the Neovim folks as usual. However, this sentence stuck out to me > The API should only grow, not break This seems to ensure eventual bloat.