4 ms·

Paying that little is generally illegal in the USA. At minimum wage, a worker working 37.5 hours a week will earn $1087 a month. If they're underperforming that

Paying that little is generally illegal in the USA. At minimum wage, a worker working 37.5 hours a week will earn $1087 a month. If they're underperforming that price, it doesn't make sense to hire them.

baraah 10y ago
Apprentices in Germany spend part of their work week in school. The €500-800 aren't really for 37.5 hour weeks. Apprentices are however exempted from the minimum wage.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
I'm not sure about the USA, but here in Australia apprentices pay rates are different from the adult minimum wage rate. The current national minimum wage in Australia is $17.70 per hour[1], where as the 1st year apprentices in our metal fabircation workshop are on something like $12 an hour, the minimum is $10.31 for a first year in our trade. If the apprentice is over 21 they rates are different again. Apprentice pay rates increase each year. Edit: as a sibiling comment mentioned, apprentices in Australia spend part of their work-year in school. This can either be weekly, or more typically in one or two week blocks. Also, I should add: at least half of the 1st year apprentices I've worked with are useless for about the first six months, they're a massive time sink if they're not doing something completely repetative like cutting a thousand pieces of steel the same length, and then they'll still find a way fuck that up if you don't keep a close eye on them. 1. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-guides/fact-sheets/minimum-workplace-entitlements/minimum-wages#current-national-minimum-wage https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-g...
- snrplfth 10y ago
  Yes, that's the thing. Total compensation for apprentices (for most employees really) is their pay, plus the experience gained, which can be considerable. But US wage law very rarely makes any exceptions for apprentices like this, so it's rarely worthwhile to bring them on unless they already have some training. Unfortunately, much of the legislative consensus in the US is that minimum wages do not have any effect on employment levels, even of the young and inexperienced. Many municipalities and states are in the process of raising their minimum wages (for all ages) to $20 AUD.
  - rvail2 10y ago
    Can we just call them interns? I've known many people who got paid nothing while in an internship, so paying them $800/mo shouldn't be a problem.
    - snrplfth 10y ago
      The problem is that, generally by law, you can either pay them $0, or minimum wage, but not in-between. This creates a gap in the market, and generally skews internships towards people who can afford to make $0 for an extended period.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > The problem is that, generally by law, you can either pay them $0, or minimum wage, but not in-between. I don't think that's true; if wage and hour laws apply, you must pay minimum wage ($0 is not an option). If the relationship isn't covered by wage and hour laws, you can pay them negative amounts (charge for training), $0, or pay a positive amount above or below the minimum wage (though in the latter case it will have to be framed as something other than pay for work, such as a stipend of some kind.)
        snrplfth 10y ago
        That would be in a logically consistent world. We are not in that world. The main rules are here, for unpaid internships: https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf So unpaid ($0) internships are permitted for certain restricted circumstances. But if you fall outside this category, you jump right up to 'employee', and have to be paid the minimum wage. Basically, once you start paying, you have to pay all the way. (Now, there is a subminimum scale of 75% of the minimum wage, but it's only available for high school enrolees above 16 years of age, for vocational training, and is granted at the discretion of the Department of Labor: https://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/q-a.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/q-a.htm)
        10y ago
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Any kind of pay break would be abused to no end by employers. Not to mention that one still needs to pay bills and live while in the apprenticeship, and minimum wage already doesn't cover that. So you'd be in a situation where only those who already have money would be able to afford to do it, much like unpaid internships. This leaves lower income people worse off than they were.
  - snrplfth 10y ago
    What I'm saying is that, if you insist that monetary compensation for a particular job must be no less than a certain amount, then all other benefits (insurance, training, experience) will be limited by that. A job that does not confer many added skills or valuable experience may therefore be available for that wage, but one where much of the compensation is training may not be available at that wage price. It's not a case of "apprentices making more money" vs. "apprentices making less money". It's a case of "apprentices making less money" vs. "apprentices not hired at all."
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      At the same time, business has proven time and again that they cannot be trusted with things like this. So some other way needs to emerge.
- serge2k 10y ago
  The last thing the US needs is another way to pay people even less.
nik736 10y ago
We have minimum wage as well and they are simply excluded from that. Problem, where? You pay a shitload of money to study, while you actually get paid doing your apprenticeship. It's a win-win.
lima 10y ago
Germany has a minimum wage, too, and apprenticeships are exempt :-) Extra incentive.

baraah 10y ago

Apprentices in Germany spend part of their work week in school. The €500-800 aren't really for 37.5 hour weeks. Apprentices are however exempted from the minimum wage.

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

I'm not sure about the USA, but here in Australia apprentices pay rates are different from the adult minimum wage rate. The current national minimum wage in Australia is $17.70 per hour[1], where as the 1st year apprentices in our metal fabircation workshop are on something like $12 an hour, the minimum is $10.31 for a first year in our trade. If the apprentice is over 21 they rates are different again. Apprentice pay rates increase each year. Edit: as a sibiling comment mentioned, apprentices in Australia spend part of their work-year in school. This can either be weekly, or more typically in one or two week blocks. Also, I should add: at least half of the 1st year apprentices I've worked with are useless for about the first six months, they're a massive time sink if they're not doing something completely repetative like cutting a thousand pieces of steel the same length, and then they'll still find a way fuck that up if you don't keep a close eye on them. 1. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-guides/fact-sheets/minimum-workplace-entitlements/minimum-wages#current-national-minimum-wage https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-g...

snrplfth 10y ago
Yes, that's the thing. Total compensation for apprentices (for most employees really) is their pay, plus the experience gained, which can be considerable. But US wage law very rarely makes any exceptions for apprentices like this, so it's rarely worthwhile to bring them on unless they already have some training. Unfortunately, much of the legislative consensus in the US is that minimum wages do not have any effect on employment levels, even of the young and inexperienced. Many municipalities and states are in the process of raising their minimum wages (for all ages) to $20 AUD.
- rvail2 10y ago
  Can we just call them interns? I've known many people who got paid nothing while in an internship, so paying them $800/mo shouldn't be a problem.
  - snrplfth 10y ago
    The problem is that, generally by law, you can either pay them $0, or minimum wage, but not in-between. This creates a gap in the market, and generally skews internships towards people who can afford to make $0 for an extended period.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > The problem is that, generally by law, you can either pay them $0, or minimum wage, but not in-between. I don't think that's true; if wage and hour laws apply, you must pay minimum wage ($0 is not an option). If the relationship isn't covered by wage and hour laws, you can pay them negative amounts (charge for training), $0, or pay a positive amount above or below the minimum wage (though in the latter case it will have to be framed as something other than pay for work, such as a stipend of some kind.)
      - snrplfth 10y ago
        That would be in a logically consistent world. We are not in that world. The main rules are here, for unpaid internships: https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf So unpaid ($0) internships are permitted for certain restricted circumstances. But if you fall outside this category, you jump right up to 'employee', and have to be paid the minimum wage. Basically, once you start paying, you have to pay all the way. (Now, there is a subminimum scale of 75% of the minimum wage, but it's only available for high school enrolees above 16 years of age, for vocational training, and is granted at the discretion of the Department of Labor: https://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/q-a.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/q-a.htm)
        10y ago
st3v3r 10y ago
Any kind of pay break would be abused to no end by employers. Not to mention that one still needs to pay bills and live while in the apprenticeship, and minimum wage already doesn't cover that. So you'd be in a situation where only those who already have money would be able to afford to do it, much like unpaid internships. This leaves lower income people worse off than they were.
- snrplfth 10y ago
  What I'm saying is that, if you insist that monetary compensation for a particular job must be no less than a certain amount, then all other benefits (insurance, training, experience) will be limited by that. A job that does not confer many added skills or valuable experience may therefore be available for that wage, but one where much of the compensation is training may not be available at that wage price. It's not a case of "apprentices making more money" vs. "apprentices making less money". It's a case of "apprentices making less money" vs. "apprentices not hired at all."
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    At the same time, business has proven time and again that they cannot be trusted with things like this. So some other way needs to emerge.
serge2k 10y ago
The last thing the US needs is another way to pay people even less.

nik736 10y ago

We have minimum wage as well and they are simply excluded from that. Problem, where? You pay a shitload of money to study, while you actually get paid doing your apprenticeship. It's a win-win.

lima 10y ago

Germany has a minimum wage, too, and apprenticeships are exempt :-) Extra incentive.