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Don't be fooled, Canadian border patrol proudly engages in this as well. I was recently driving across the border to Montreal on vacation when Canadian border a

Don't be fooled, Canadian border patrol proudly engages in this as well. I was recently driving across the border to Montreal on vacation when Canadian border agents, in addition to searching my car and personal belongings, demanded to see my cell phone and turn over the password. I simply asked why, since I didn't think I was doing anything suspicious, at which point the agent angrily responded "because I can and now I'm going to search it extra thoroughly." I asked what would happen if I didn't turn the password over and just went back home to the US, they told me they'd seize the device and put me in prison until they break into it. So, I gave the password, 3 agents took it in the back for 45 minutes, came back and questioned me about some texts I had with a friend from months ago who was talking about marijuana, and eventually let me pass to Canada. Hopefully they didn't hold on to all my personal data or install backdoors but just in case I wiped the phone and reinstalled from a backup. In any case, this was extremely intrusive and I couldn't stop thinking about it the whole trip. I wondered what would happen if I had actually forgotten my phone password - just weeks before I changed from a 6 digit numeric code to a longer alphanumeric and almost forgot it since it had been a while since the last time I restarted my phone requiring password entry. I had a lot of very private photos and conversations on there with my SO. Definitely ruined my whole vacation. Edit: Also, they didn't just stick to private photos and messages, they even opened up dating apps checking for messages there, opened up unread snap and kik messages too.

chinathrow 10y ago
Some risk averse people are following one rule: Do not carry any electronics at any border crossing. It's a hostile territory.
- jliptzin 10y ago
  Indeed, from now on I will back up my phone to the cloud, wipe it before going over a border, then reinstalling after. It's the only sane thing to do.
  - spinlock 10y ago
    lulz, you should assume the NSA has access to anything you store in the "cloud".
    - jliptzin 10y ago
      Okay but I encrypt locally first?
    - michaelcampbell 10y ago
      Of course, but they already have it, and aren't impeding my travel. The Candian Border Control guys don't, and can.
      - j1vms 10y ago
        > (...) but they already have it, and aren't impeding my travel. But don't be mistaken, that based on the Snowden revelations, "they" may not have already had it, and needed another country's intelligence agency to access it first -- for them to get to whatever it might be, and possibly even use it against you, legally.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        The Five Eyes may actually have it - so even if border guys don't, the Canadians may have access.
  - chinathrow 10y ago
    For that you would need to be able to fully trust your cloud storage provider, the ISPs used in transint to and from, the used encryption methods and last but not least: the baseband firmware of your phone.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      No, if you trust the encryption (which implies the firmware), you don't need to trust the ISP or storage provider. That's the whole point of encrypting stuff.
- tacoman 10y ago
  To me, that just makes you more suspicious. Last time I had to cross borders CAN/USA/MEX, I just popped my SIM in an old Blackberry Q10 and connected it to a lightly-used email account. Made a few calls and texts in the days leading up to trip. I reasoned that an old Blackberry is good because there really isn't much you can do with it beyond text/email/web. And it makes me look like a tech-illiterate luddite.
- joering2 10y ago
  I travel for few months every year to Europe to work from my home country (I work remotely). After reading so many crazy stories, I have adopted few rules: I have SSD drive that I use in States. Once I'm ready to go, I swap it with "empty" drive and fire up the OS just to get some updates on files on it, so it doesn't look like it hasn't been used for a long time. Once in Europe, I put the drive that has more tools and my files I use daily. I also use personal DropBox and the most important files are sync over the net when I login from Europe. As to the phone - my network doesn't work in Europe anyways, so instead of selling/throwing away my perfectly working Iphone5, I use it in Europe and my new phone I leave in states. Moreover I cannot say much about driving to Canada, but I was tempted once with saving $150 on a ticket and flying to Europe through Montreal instead of Chicago. That was horrible mistake. That airport is super disorganized and there is literally no staff to help you. No other information than to research for yourself. Few years ago some guy got teased to death because he was so frustrated and I don't blame him... As of the phone in US, I have jailbroken version with an app that allows me to do a triple-click to shut it down completely. I got used to using this trick when I'm pulled over by LE or entering airports or other places... just in case! I don't think I would ever give out my password without talking to a lawyer first.
  - casualstroller 10y ago
    I will take YUL over ORD any day. It's a very well-organized airport. As for the "tasering", it was at YVR (Vancouver). Should I list the number of incidents at US airports?
    - monksy 10y ago
      I can't say about YUL, but ORD is very organized and very prepared for where you may travel to.
- curried_haskell 10y ago
  This is what I don't get. Would you carry a briefcase over the border filled with confidential documents, photos, love letters, and a porno magazine? Would you think that customs has no right to open it and ask you for the combination of the briefcase is locked? How is a cell phone any different? Asking for passwords to Facebook accounts or other information that isn't on your phone, now that's another story. When crossing the border... backup and factory reset. Don't carry anything with you over the border you don't want customs officers looking at. I just hang onto one of my older phones to use when I travel.
  - xkiwi 10y ago
    It is different: Cellphone, especially smartphone nowadays, has extended reach. When your phone is taken away after they forced you enter SU level password, you have no control of it, they do. Whoever took it inside the room, they can: >Browser your email, check who you contacted since you have you email box: Why you bought this on amazon? Why you bought that from Ebay? For what reason you purchase two pressure cookers from and nails from Walmart at the same time? >Check your contacts: Who is Mr.X? When was the last time you talk to Mr. Y? What was in the conversation? >Check what you have posted on facebook/Twitter. You supported Aaron Swartz? You are in the protest called The Day we Fight Back? What was the protest about? Who you are with? >You may have home security Cam APP installed: Who sitting in the sofa? How many rooms do you have? Is this your wife? What is her social security number? What is her first name? On the day of Feb 21, 2013, who are the two male visited your home? What's their name and what's the purpose of the visit? How long they stayed in your house? What car they are diving? What is the plate number? >Copy all your photos for further investation. >Install Spyware, Copy your RSA key stored in your phone.
charlesism 10y ago
> Don't be fooled I don't get it. Are you a journalist, too?
- jliptzin 10y ago
  No I'm not. I am a 30 year old white guy traveling with my SO on vacation.
hellofunk 10y ago
Some friends of mine were turned back at the border because they didn't make advance reservations for a hotel and therefore prove their trip really was legit.
- dopamean 10y ago
  This isn't that uncommon. I nearly had this happen to me traveling to Europe years ago. I wasn't sure where I was going to stay and didn't book a hotel. It was a problem at customs. I believe the same can be true if you don't book a return flight.
- edblarney 10y ago
  That's sad. Border staff often have a set of rules they have to follow, a lot of it is to ward off attempts at illegal migration. Getting into America or Canada via that border is rather common. When I was at the Canadian border once, a woman from Jamaica, with a carload of luggage was denied entry essentially on the same basis - no proof of return travel, reservations etc. - they essentially suspected she was trying to gain illegal status. Which is not entirely unreasonable in that case, but even then, tricky. The rough part is how normal folks get caught up in the policies. The one about dope is particularly pernicious - if you admit to 'having ever smoked dope' to American border agents - they can deny you entry for quite a long time. That one's a little crazy-crazy if you ask me, just a bad policy.
  - Spoom 10y ago
    Per your last comment, you'd likely hit a three year or ten year bar. If they determine that you ever lied to them about anything, they can bar you from entering the country for life.
  - schoen 10y ago
    I didn't get a good feeling from your comment's contrast between "a woman from Jamaica" and "normal folks". Surely being from Jamaica is a thing that normal folks do, if that's where they're from.
    - 10y ago
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exolymph 10y ago
> I asked what would happen if I didn't turn the password over and just went back home to the US, they told me they'd seize the device and put me in prison until they break into it. I guess it depends on how much you care about your personal info or how sensitive your data is, but I wouldn't budge based on this. I'd say, "Okay, I want to talk to the American embassy," then wait it out. Edit: To be clear, this would be my response without knowing anything about the relevant Canadian law — since I don't – because the statement sounds like a lie. LE lies all the time. Indefinite imprisonment of a random person? Nah. And breaking into a locked phone is actually very difficult — see Apple versus FBI.
- jliptzin 10y ago
  Actually if I were alone I would have done that just to prove a point, but I was with my SO and I didn't want to ruin his vacation as well.
  - snowwindwaves 10y ago
    Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. Even if you decide not to enter as opposed to being denied I bet it pops up on their screen for a long time.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - empressplay 10y ago
      Forever, actually.
    - mikestew 10y ago
      Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. If a border agent threatened me with jail, I don't think that being unable to return would be a problem for me. :-) (Disclaimer: having no family in Canada, or any real need to be there.)
makecheck 10y ago
I’ve always found it ridiculous that the content of devices is fair game. There is literally nothing on a phone that couldn’t be digitally downloaded after crossing the border (therefore no “threat” by bringing the phone with you). Similarly, there is no possible way to harm an airplane based on what is present on a laptop; and even if there were, you could buy in-flight WiFi and download the bits after boarding. You could cross the checkpoint with a blank device and in seconds have it populated with whatever you wanted to have. It’s insane.
- drvdevd 10y ago
  Right - and apparently this is exactly what you should do. Always travel with throwaway and/or wiped devices. Don't trust a device that's been seized and returned.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I can't upvote this enough. I'm a law abiding citizen, but I still wipe my phone and restore from iCloud after I've made my way through customs or border control.
    - drvdevd 10y ago
      Yes and you have to keep in mind that just because someone has the legal authority to seize your posession, you have no reason to trust that what they will do with it will be legal as well. For all you know they can do any number of stupid and/or malicious things with your device that don't reflect the intentions of the government they represent either (being generous here). They are just people, after all.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - AJ007 10y ago
        If you run a startup with millions of users it is reckless to assume you will not be the target of industrial espionage when crossing a foreign border or traveling in a foreign state.
mtgx 10y ago
And it's about to get worse for Canadians: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/cnslttns/ntnl-scrt/thm09-en.aspx https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/cnslttns/ntnl-scrt/thm09-...
- xemoka 10y ago
  Please take time to answer this survey if you are a Canadian. It took me over an hour and a half today, but it's worth it. You can find some answers at https://mascherari.press/canadas-online-consultation-on-national-security-investigative-capabilities-in-a-digital-world-my-feedback/ https://mascherari.press/canadas-online-consultation-on-nati... (including mine after moderation, I hope)
- Vindicis 10y ago
  Thanks for bringing this to my attention so I could give them my thoughts on these matters.
tempestn 10y ago
I think that settles it. I was already considering this before, but now I'm actually going to do it. Before crossing the border, I'm rooting my phone so I can take a full disk image, which I'll leave at home. Then I'll factory reset and just load what I need for the trip^. It's a pain, but worth it to avoid the chance of this kind of invasion of privacy. ^Can make an image of that too for ease of use on future trips. Of course, if they can do this, there's nothing really stopping them from forcing you to log into your webmail either, so maybe there's nothing you can ultimately do. (At least short of creating elaborate decoy accounts, but then you're actively lying to them, which probably isn't a great idea.)
- marme 10y ago
  better yet is to buy a cheap unlocked phone from walmart and just take your sim out and put it in the cheap phone and leave your real phone at home.
  - tempestn 10y ago
    Even so, the main thing I wouldn't want someone snooping in is my email, and as long as that's online it seems just as feasible that I would be forced to log into that as into my phone. Also, I tend to use my phone a lot when I'm traveling, so I'd like to have it!
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
lordnacho 10y ago
Someone's probably already thought of this: Make a second password which "unlocks" the phone to some innocuous mode that won't hold the meatheads attention any longer. Assuming you aren't specifically targeted.
- kuschku 10y ago
  Android allows creating multiple users.
- kilroy123 10y ago
  Like with TrueCrypt?
- digler999 10y ago
  how about just back your stuff up to the cloud, and on a micro USB card. Those should be easy enough to hide, and if they find it say it's an extra one for your camera.
ue_ 10y ago
I read a story on /r/hentai (yes, bear with me) who said that he was stopped at the Canadian border and they searched his laptop. In his browser image cache they found drawings of fictional characters who appeared to be under the age of 18 engaged in sexual acts. They detained him for a day (or two, I can't remember) and confiscated his laptop permanently. Laws like this are silly, horrible, and have no place in a democracy. Even disgusting speech ought to be defended. Canada, the UK and NZ (edit: and Australia, where someone was, I believe, jailed for having "Simpsons porn" on his computer) are places that I know have laws like this. As a citizen of one of these places, it worries me greatly, even though I am not interested in such drawings. It actually enrages me, far more than any other problem in the Western world. Please be careful when crossing borders.
- goatforce5 10y ago
  An episode of Border Security had a furry trying to enter Canada, complete with the border guards trying to work out if furry porn counted as bestiality porn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y_5b1JsIs4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y_5b1JsIs4 It's probably best to not draw attention to yourself when crossing borders. i.e., don't wear a giant tail when talking to border guards.
- wallace_f 10y ago
  > Laws like this are silly, horrible, and have no place in a democracy. Even disgusting speech ought to be defended. I agree. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge I would guess these cases would not hold up to the scrutiny of the supreme court, if they were ever brought there. As a non legal expert, my reading has been that the Supreme Court usually has, at least in the past, set a very high bar in ruling against free expression, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_v._Massachusetts Maybe someone has a more educated opinion than I, though. I really don't want to see our Bill of Rights torn apart. As one user said here, they have a theory these policies serve a purpose to acclimate us to a new kind of authoritarian government. I have a lot of personal family pride in fighting for civil and human rights, and I am personally troubled by what seems to be an ever-steady march towards 1984, if we're not already there. > Canada, the UK and NZ (edit: and Australia, where someone was, I believe, jailed for having "Simpsons porn" on his computer) are places that I know have laws like this. By the way, NZ is particularly outrageous and ridiculous with these laws. What I find particularly bemusing is that while in NZ has they can ban a book for mainstream sexual content with little quarrel, Auckland has a visible prostitution market. I'm not necessarily saying one thing or another about prostitution, but I think it says something about the recklessness with free speech there. Their failed War on Drugs is also outrageous, arguably the highest per-capita WoD programs in the world, and is expanding.
michaelcampbell 10y ago
I've mused to myself about factory wiping my phone before I travel, since it's simply a matter of getting wifi and time to restore, or if that would only infuriate them more handing them a phone with quite literally nothing installed on it.
rhizome 10y ago
"Sorry, I don't remember the passcode," or say the phone isn't yours.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >"Sorry, I don't remember the passcode," or say the phone isn't yours. Then you get detained. Indefinitely if they believe you to be lying. Do you think they'll let you go with this excuse?
delackner 10y ago
I'm curious, do you think anything about your appearance or car made them profile you specifically? I crossed over a few years ago at Niagara falls and found the border agents extremely courteous and friendly, probably more so than any other crossing I've made in the world. I mention it not as anecdata, but just to wonder if even the same border agent might treat someone very negatively today (change in policy over time) or simply because they are looking at silly factors like how old your car looks.
- digler999 10y ago
  I'm all for being friendly, but sometimes being real friendly is also a sign that they're up to something. I remember reading an article about a Geo Cacher who got stopped by the Secret Service for circling around the White House in a car too many times. he said the guys on bikes were real nice and friendly, talked all about him and his geocaching....until the marked car of thugs showed up and detained him. Also, if driving a nice car was the key to getting past BP, drug smugglers would have figured this out ages ago and adopted it as SOP.
  - b9 10y ago
    If judges have a problem with sugar or after a football game expect the border guards to have the same problem.
  - delackner 10y ago
    Isn't that the point though? These kinds of games don't actually catch professionals. They catch normal people and normal people making foolish choices or mistakes.
saycheese 10y ago
Are you a journalist?
- mzw_mzw 10y ago
  Why should journalists have more rights than ordinary civilians?
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    So that the rest of us can stay informed and sources can be protected. The tricky hit is regulating who is a journalist - bloggers here in NZ are running into this.
    - mzw_mzw 10y ago
      But do you trust the same governments hassling journalists at the border and rooting through their electronic data to decide who is, and is not, a journalist?
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        That's pretty much exactly what I was getting at - the journalists police the state, but the state polices the journalists.
    - metafunctor 10y ago
      What makes you think you can trust the journalists to keep you correctly informed?
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    They shouldn't, legitimate "press freedoms" don't belong to a special journalistic class, they protect activities no matter who is engaged in them.
    - DanBC 10y ago
curried_haskell 10y ago
The worst part is they aren't looking for anything related to security, they're primarily checking that you're not going to try to work in Canada.
sshanky 10y ago
On entering Canada, I've been asked to open my laptop, turn it on, enter an administrator level password, and then search for *.jpg. Everything shows up -- cached browser images as well. The agent asked a lot of questions, but I was allowed to pass eventually. This all took place out in the open, where they would normally collect a form from you. I immediately started using TrueCrypt with the plausible deniability option, which allows you to enter an alternate password to open a completely different part of the encrypted area seeded with some random files that look realistic enough to pass scrutiny. It was always fun to unmount the volume and remount it with the plausible deniability volume. Or, just shutting down before crossing the border and knowing that, if needed, I'd enter the alternate password. Recently I started using a Mac and Apple's own full disk encryption, but reading this just highlights the risk. Maybe I should start using TrueCrypt again. Ugh...it's frustrating.
- micaksica 10y ago
  Why *.jpg? Do they just assume everyone is smuggling porn on laptop hard drives or something? You'd think if you were looking for evidence of terrorism or immigration issues you'd be more interested in emails and documents. These searches, if true, have nothing to do with border security and more to do with fishing for anything and everything they can charge you with once they aren't encumbered with warrants and courts and due process.
  - derrickdirge 10y ago
    Exactly. With obscenity laws and laws outlawing certain drawings and such, porn is just the low hanging fruit.
  - 91bananas 10y ago
    Or maybe it's just rogue agents that want to see if you have any provocative pictures of your spouse on your devices?
dleslie 10y ago
CBSA basically has full authority to censor whatever they wish and detain whomever they wish while they take whatever they wish and search however they wish.
wheelerwj 10y ago
The company I work for is located in Canada and I've been heavily involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem. So I've been back and forth fair amount and this mirrors my experience. I normally wipe my devices while crossing the border, phone and laptop but one time while I was doing a much shorter round trip, I decided not to wipe my phone. on my way into Canada, i was identified for enhanced screening at like 10pm, After waiting an hour, the agent asked for my return flight ticket, which I didn't have printed. so it's late, im dangerously close to missing my connection, and I think, "Oh! I probably have the confirmation email on my phone!" So i pull out my trusty CIA surveillance device, unlock it, and pull up the confirmation email. The agent then takes it directly out of my hands and walks into the back. I don't know how long he was gone (long enough to miss my flight) but when he came back he had a bunch of questions about a girl I had been texting and who had sent me some provocative photos. I don't know that helped Canada's national security but sure, whatever. To be fair, the US CBP has never taken any devices from me but they do stop me routinely and dump my bag and ask all sorts of ridiculous questions. I used to fight it but now I just sit/stand quietly until they are done. On my latest trip, i guess I was too polite so the agent decided that was suspicious. His face got all twisted as he began asking me the questions. There are no rights at the border so don't cross with anything.
- spraak 10y ago
  Where do you store your data so that you can retrieve it once you've crossed the border?
  - wheelerwj 10y ago
    I don't. by this point I've got a relatively small personal digital footprint. Everything I need I can download again, or log back into. working out 2fa was a blessing and a curse. decoupling it from sms has been great but I do rely on a centralized service to store a theoretically encrypted backup. I'm lucky to have a pretty decent memory, so I everything else I just remember. I guess the part that is the most frustrating is that as a result I don't really save or take many pictures. i don't backup or save any additional contacts. I don't save anything important in messaging applications. Oh, and I can't decrypt pgp communications when I'm out of the country, because like hell I'm bringing that accross the border. I've had my encounters with law enforcement, I won't ever feel comfortable again. I'll never forget the look on their faces when they look at you like they know something super private and they find it hilarious.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
Differential access to civil rights are a big part of why I gave up my driver's license. Pulling over a driver and pointing a gun at them? Trivial. Pulling over a livery vehicle and searching the passenger? Complicated. Demanding someone in a car give you their phone's password? Trivial. Doing the same at the airport? My weekends filled for a month hosting fundraisers for PACs.
- jliptzin 10y ago
  I am not sure I understand the last part of your post could you elaborate further?
monksy 10y ago
After hearing about these stories on Canada, why would I ever want to go back there? They sound atrocious.
GuiA 10y ago
I'm sorry this happened to you. I don't think anyone should do this under any pretext - accepting will open you to so much more potential risk than not. In moments like this, I'm happy to be employed by a large company that has a strong vested interest against people snooping through my emails. If such a situation were to happen in my case, I would just reply "I cannot do that as this phone belongs to $company. My employer knows of my travel itinerary and if I am delayed they will be very happy to send lawyers to sort things out." It's sad and dystopian, but I trust my employer to watch out for my interests more so than any government.

chinathrow 10y ago

Some risk averse people are following one rule: Do not carry any electronics at any border crossing. It's a hostile territory.

jliptzin 10y ago
Indeed, from now on I will back up my phone to the cloud, wipe it before going over a border, then reinstalling after. It's the only sane thing to do.
- spinlock 10y ago
  lulz, you should assume the NSA has access to anything you store in the "cloud".
  - jliptzin 10y ago
    Okay but I encrypt locally first?
  - michaelcampbell 10y ago
    Of course, but they already have it, and aren't impeding my travel. The Candian Border Control guys don't, and can.
    - j1vms 10y ago
      > (...) but they already have it, and aren't impeding my travel. But don't be mistaken, that based on the Snowden revelations, "they" may not have already had it, and needed another country's intelligence agency to access it first -- for them to get to whatever it might be, and possibly even use it against you, legally.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      The Five Eyes may actually have it - so even if border guys don't, the Canadians may have access.
- chinathrow 10y ago
  For that you would need to be able to fully trust your cloud storage provider, the ISPs used in transint to and from, the used encryption methods and last but not least: the baseband firmware of your phone.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    No, if you trust the encryption (which implies the firmware), you don't need to trust the ISP or storage provider. That's the whole point of encrypting stuff.
tacoman 10y ago
To me, that just makes you more suspicious. Last time I had to cross borders CAN/USA/MEX, I just popped my SIM in an old Blackberry Q10 and connected it to a lightly-used email account. Made a few calls and texts in the days leading up to trip. I reasoned that an old Blackberry is good because there really isn't much you can do with it beyond text/email/web. And it makes me look like a tech-illiterate luddite.
joering2 10y ago
I travel for few months every year to Europe to work from my home country (I work remotely). After reading so many crazy stories, I have adopted few rules: I have SSD drive that I use in States. Once I'm ready to go, I swap it with "empty" drive and fire up the OS just to get some updates on files on it, so it doesn't look like it hasn't been used for a long time. Once in Europe, I put the drive that has more tools and my files I use daily. I also use personal DropBox and the most important files are sync over the net when I login from Europe. As to the phone - my network doesn't work in Europe anyways, so instead of selling/throwing away my perfectly working Iphone5, I use it in Europe and my new phone I leave in states. Moreover I cannot say much about driving to Canada, but I was tempted once with saving $150 on a ticket and flying to Europe through Montreal instead of Chicago. That was horrible mistake. That airport is super disorganized and there is literally no staff to help you. No other information than to research for yourself. Few years ago some guy got teased to death because he was so frustrated and I don't blame him... As of the phone in US, I have jailbroken version with an app that allows me to do a triple-click to shut it down completely. I got used to using this trick when I'm pulled over by LE or entering airports or other places... just in case! I don't think I would ever give out my password without talking to a lawyer first.
- casualstroller 10y ago
  I will take YUL over ORD any day. It's a very well-organized airport. As for the "tasering", it was at YVR (Vancouver). Should I list the number of incidents at US airports?
  - monksy 10y ago
    I can't say about YUL, but ORD is very organized and very prepared for where you may travel to.
curried_haskell 10y ago
This is what I don't get. Would you carry a briefcase over the border filled with confidential documents, photos, love letters, and a porno magazine? Would you think that customs has no right to open it and ask you for the combination of the briefcase is locked? How is a cell phone any different? Asking for passwords to Facebook accounts or other information that isn't on your phone, now that's another story. When crossing the border... backup and factory reset. Don't carry anything with you over the border you don't want customs officers looking at. I just hang onto one of my older phones to use when I travel.
- xkiwi 10y ago
  It is different: Cellphone, especially smartphone nowadays, has extended reach. When your phone is taken away after they forced you enter SU level password, you have no control of it, they do. Whoever took it inside the room, they can: >Browser your email, check who you contacted since you have you email box: Why you bought this on amazon? Why you bought that from Ebay? For what reason you purchase two pressure cookers from and nails from Walmart at the same time? >Check your contacts: Who is Mr.X? When was the last time you talk to Mr. Y? What was in the conversation? >Check what you have posted on facebook/Twitter. You supported Aaron Swartz? You are in the protest called The Day we Fight Back? What was the protest about? Who you are with? >You may have home security Cam APP installed: Who sitting in the sofa? How many rooms do you have? Is this your wife? What is her social security number? What is her first name? On the day of Feb 21, 2013, who are the two male visited your home? What's their name and what's the purpose of the visit? How long they stayed in your house? What car they are diving? What is the plate number? >Copy all your photos for further investation. >Install Spyware, Copy your RSA key stored in your phone.

charlesism 10y ago

> Don't be fooled I don't get it. Are you a journalist, too?

jliptzin 10y ago
No I'm not. I am a 30 year old white guy traveling with my SO on vacation.

hellofunk 10y ago

Some friends of mine were turned back at the border because they didn't make advance reservations for a hotel and therefore prove their trip really was legit.

dopamean 10y ago
This isn't that uncommon. I nearly had this happen to me traveling to Europe years ago. I wasn't sure where I was going to stay and didn't book a hotel. It was a problem at customs. I believe the same can be true if you don't book a return flight.
edblarney 10y ago
That's sad. Border staff often have a set of rules they have to follow, a lot of it is to ward off attempts at illegal migration. Getting into America or Canada via that border is rather common. When I was at the Canadian border once, a woman from Jamaica, with a carload of luggage was denied entry essentially on the same basis - no proof of return travel, reservations etc. - they essentially suspected she was trying to gain illegal status. Which is not entirely unreasonable in that case, but even then, tricky. The rough part is how normal folks get caught up in the policies. The one about dope is particularly pernicious - if you admit to 'having ever smoked dope' to American border agents - they can deny you entry for quite a long time. That one's a little crazy-crazy if you ask me, just a bad policy.
- Spoom 10y ago
  Per your last comment, you'd likely hit a three year or ten year bar. If they determine that you ever lied to them about anything, they can bar you from entering the country for life.
- schoen 10y ago
  I didn't get a good feeling from your comment's contrast between "a woman from Jamaica" and "normal folks". Surely being from Jamaica is a thing that normal folks do, if that's where they're from.
  - 10y ago

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exolymph 10y ago

> I asked what would happen if I didn't turn the password over and just went back home to the US, they told me they'd seize the device and put me in prison until they break into it. I guess it depends on how much you care about your personal info or how sensitive your data is, but I wouldn't budge based on this. I'd say, "Okay, I want to talk to the American embassy," then wait it out. Edit: To be clear, this would be my response without knowing anything about the relevant Canadian law — since I don't – because the statement sounds like a lie. LE lies all the time. Indefinite imprisonment of a random person? Nah. And breaking into a locked phone is actually very difficult — see Apple versus FBI.

jliptzin 10y ago
Actually if I were alone I would have done that just to prove a point, but I was with my SO and I didn't want to ruin his vacation as well.
- snowwindwaves 10y ago
  Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. Even if you decide not to enter as opposed to being denied I bet it pops up on their screen for a long time.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - empressplay 10y ago
    Forever, actually.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. If a border agent threatened me with jail, I don't think that being unable to return would be a problem for me. :-) (Disclaimer: having no family in Canada, or any real need to be there.)

makecheck 10y ago

I’ve always found it ridiculous that the content of devices is fair game. There is literally nothing on a phone that couldn’t be digitally downloaded after crossing the border (therefore no “threat” by bringing the phone with you). Similarly, there is no possible way to harm an airplane based on what is present on a laptop; and even if there were, you could buy in-flight WiFi and download the bits after boarding. You could cross the checkpoint with a blank device and in seconds have it populated with whatever you wanted to have. It’s insane.

drvdevd 10y ago
Right - and apparently this is exactly what you should do. Always travel with throwaway and/or wiped devices. Don't trust a device that's been seized and returned.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I can't upvote this enough. I'm a law abiding citizen, but I still wipe my phone and restore from iCloud after I've made my way through customs or border control.
  - drvdevd 10y ago
    Yes and you have to keep in mind that just because someone has the legal authority to seize your posession, you have no reason to trust that what they will do with it will be legal as well. For all you know they can do any number of stupid and/or malicious things with your device that don't reflect the intentions of the government they represent either (being generous here). They are just people, after all.
    - deleted 10y ago
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    - AJ007 10y ago
      If you run a startup with millions of users it is reckless to assume you will not be the target of industrial espionage when crossing a foreign border or traveling in a foreign state.

mtgx 10y ago

And it's about to get worse for Canadians: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/cnslttns/ntnl-scrt/thm09-en.aspx https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/cnslttns/ntnl-scrt/thm09-...

xemoka 10y ago
Please take time to answer this survey if you are a Canadian. It took me over an hour and a half today, but it's worth it. You can find some answers at https://mascherari.press/canadas-online-consultation-on-national-security-investigative-capabilities-in-a-digital-world-my-feedback/ https://mascherari.press/canadas-online-consultation-on-nati... (including mine after moderation, I hope)
Vindicis 10y ago
Thanks for bringing this to my attention so I could give them my thoughts on these matters.

tempestn 10y ago

I think that settles it. I was already considering this before, but now I'm actually going to do it. Before crossing the border, I'm rooting my phone so I can take a full disk image, which I'll leave at home. Then I'll factory reset and just load what I need for the trip^. It's a pain, but worth it to avoid the chance of this kind of invasion of privacy. ^Can make an image of that too for ease of use on future trips. Of course, if they can do this, there's nothing really stopping them from forcing you to log into your webmail either, so maybe there's nothing you can ultimately do. (At least short of creating elaborate decoy accounts, but then you're actively lying to them, which probably isn't a great idea.)

marme 10y ago
better yet is to buy a cheap unlocked phone from walmart and just take your sim out and put it in the cheap phone and leave your real phone at home.
- tempestn 10y ago
  Even so, the main thing I wouldn't want someone snooping in is my email, and as long as that's online it seems just as feasible that I would be forced to log into that as into my phone. Also, I tend to use my phone a lot when I'm traveling, so I'd like to have it!
  - deleted 10y ago
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lordnacho 10y ago

Someone's probably already thought of this: Make a second password which "unlocks" the phone to some innocuous mode that won't hold the meatheads attention any longer. Assuming you aren't specifically targeted.

kuschku 10y ago
Android allows creating multiple users.
kilroy123 10y ago
Like with TrueCrypt?
digler999 10y ago
how about just back your stuff up to the cloud, and on a micro USB card. Those should be easy enough to hide, and if they find it say it's an extra one for your camera.

ue_ 10y ago

I read a story on /r/hentai (yes, bear with me) who said that he was stopped at the Canadian border and they searched his laptop. In his browser image cache they found drawings of fictional characters who appeared to be under the age of 18 engaged in sexual acts. They detained him for a day (or two, I can't remember) and confiscated his laptop permanently. Laws like this are silly, horrible, and have no place in a democracy. Even disgusting speech ought to be defended. Canada, the UK and NZ (edit: and Australia, where someone was, I believe, jailed for having "Simpsons porn" on his computer) are places that I know have laws like this. As a citizen of one of these places, it worries me greatly, even though I am not interested in such drawings. It actually enrages me, far more than any other problem in the Western world. Please be careful when crossing borders.

goatforce5 10y ago
An episode of Border Security had a furry trying to enter Canada, complete with the border guards trying to work out if furry porn counted as bestiality porn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y_5b1JsIs4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y_5b1JsIs4 It's probably best to not draw attention to yourself when crossing borders. i.e., don't wear a giant tail when talking to border guards.
wallace_f 10y ago
> Laws like this are silly, horrible, and have no place in a democracy. Even disgusting speech ought to be defended. I agree. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge I would guess these cases would not hold up to the scrutiny of the supreme court, if they were ever brought there. As a non legal expert, my reading has been that the Supreme Court usually has, at least in the past, set a very high bar in ruling against free expression, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_v._Massachusetts Maybe someone has a more educated opinion than I, though. I really don't want to see our Bill of Rights torn apart. As one user said here, they have a theory these policies serve a purpose to acclimate us to a new kind of authoritarian government. I have a lot of personal family pride in fighting for civil and human rights, and I am personally troubled by what seems to be an ever-steady march towards 1984, if we're not already there. > Canada, the UK and NZ (edit: and Australia, where someone was, I believe, jailed for having "Simpsons porn" on his computer) are places that I know have laws like this. By the way, NZ is particularly outrageous and ridiculous with these laws. What I find particularly bemusing is that while in NZ has they can ban a book for mainstream sexual content with little quarrel, Auckland has a visible prostitution market. I'm not necessarily saying one thing or another about prostitution, but I think it says something about the recklessness with free speech there. Their failed War on Drugs is also outrageous, arguably the highest per-capita WoD programs in the world, and is expanding.

michaelcampbell 10y ago

I've mused to myself about factory wiping my phone before I travel, since it's simply a matter of getting wifi and time to restore, or if that would only infuriate them more handing them a phone with quite literally nothing installed on it.

rhizome 10y ago

"Sorry, I don't remember the passcode," or say the phone isn't yours.

forgetsusername 10y ago
>"Sorry, I don't remember the passcode," or say the phone isn't yours. Then you get detained. Indefinitely if they believe you to be lying. Do you think they'll let you go with this excuse?

delackner 10y ago

I'm curious, do you think anything about your appearance or car made them profile you specifically? I crossed over a few years ago at Niagara falls and found the border agents extremely courteous and friendly, probably more so than any other crossing I've made in the world. I mention it not as anecdata, but just to wonder if even the same border agent might treat someone very negatively today (change in policy over time) or simply because they are looking at silly factors like how old your car looks.

digler999 10y ago
I'm all for being friendly, but sometimes being real friendly is also a sign that they're up to something. I remember reading an article about a Geo Cacher who got stopped by the Secret Service for circling around the White House in a car too many times. he said the guys on bikes were real nice and friendly, talked all about him and his geocaching....until the marked car of thugs showed up and detained him. Also, if driving a nice car was the key to getting past BP, drug smugglers would have figured this out ages ago and adopted it as SOP.
- b9 10y ago
  If judges have a problem with sugar or after a football game expect the border guards to have the same problem.
- delackner 10y ago
  Isn't that the point though? These kinds of games don't actually catch professionals. They catch normal people and normal people making foolish choices or mistakes.

saycheese 10y ago

Are you a journalist?

mzw_mzw 10y ago
Why should journalists have more rights than ordinary civilians?
- lostlogin 10y ago
  So that the rest of us can stay informed and sources can be protected. The tricky hit is regulating who is a journalist - bloggers here in NZ are running into this.
  - mzw_mzw 10y ago
    But do you trust the same governments hassling journalists at the border and rooting through their electronic data to decide who is, and is not, a journalist?
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      That's pretty much exactly what I was getting at - the journalists police the state, but the state polices the journalists.
  - metafunctor 10y ago
    What makes you think you can trust the journalists to keep you correctly informed?
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  They shouldn't, legitimate "press freedoms" don't belong to a special journalistic class, they protect activities no matter who is engaged in them.
  - DanBC 10y ago

curried_haskell 10y ago

The worst part is they aren't looking for anything related to security, they're primarily checking that you're not going to try to work in Canada.

sshanky 10y ago

On entering Canada, I've been asked to open my laptop, turn it on, enter an administrator level password, and then search for *.jpg. Everything shows up -- cached browser images as well. The agent asked a lot of questions, but I was allowed to pass eventually. This all took place out in the open, where they would normally collect a form from you. I immediately started using TrueCrypt with the plausible deniability option, which allows you to enter an alternate password to open a completely different part of the encrypted area seeded with some random files that look realistic enough to pass scrutiny. It was always fun to unmount the volume and remount it with the plausible deniability volume. Or, just shutting down before crossing the border and knowing that, if needed, I'd enter the alternate password. Recently I started using a Mac and Apple's own full disk encryption, but reading this just highlights the risk. Maybe I should start using TrueCrypt again. Ugh...it's frustrating.

micaksica 10y ago
Why *.jpg? Do they just assume everyone is smuggling porn on laptop hard drives or something? You'd think if you were looking for evidence of terrorism or immigration issues you'd be more interested in emails and documents. These searches, if true, have nothing to do with border security and more to do with fishing for anything and everything they can charge you with once they aren't encumbered with warrants and courts and due process.
- derrickdirge 10y ago
  Exactly. With obscenity laws and laws outlawing certain drawings and such, porn is just the low hanging fruit.
- 91bananas 10y ago
  Or maybe it's just rogue agents that want to see if you have any provocative pictures of your spouse on your devices?

dleslie 10y ago

CBSA basically has full authority to censor whatever they wish and detain whomever they wish while they take whatever they wish and search however they wish.

wheelerwj 10y ago

The company I work for is located in Canada and I've been heavily involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem. So I've been back and forth fair amount and this mirrors my experience. I normally wipe my devices while crossing the border, phone and laptop but one time while I was doing a much shorter round trip, I decided not to wipe my phone. on my way into Canada, i was identified for enhanced screening at like 10pm, After waiting an hour, the agent asked for my return flight ticket, which I didn't have printed. so it's late, im dangerously close to missing my connection, and I think, "Oh! I probably have the confirmation email on my phone!" So i pull out my trusty CIA surveillance device, unlock it, and pull up the confirmation email. The agent then takes it directly out of my hands and walks into the back. I don't know how long he was gone (long enough to miss my flight) but when he came back he had a bunch of questions about a girl I had been texting and who had sent me some provocative photos. I don't know that helped Canada's national security but sure, whatever. To be fair, the US CBP has never taken any devices from me but they do stop me routinely and dump my bag and ask all sorts of ridiculous questions. I used to fight it but now I just sit/stand quietly until they are done. On my latest trip, i guess I was too polite so the agent decided that was suspicious. His face got all twisted as he began asking me the questions. There are no rights at the border so don't cross with anything.

spraak 10y ago
Where do you store your data so that you can retrieve it once you've crossed the border?
- wheelerwj 10y ago
  I don't. by this point I've got a relatively small personal digital footprint. Everything I need I can download again, or log back into. working out 2fa was a blessing and a curse. decoupling it from sms has been great but I do rely on a centralized service to store a theoretically encrypted backup. I'm lucky to have a pretty decent memory, so I everything else I just remember. I guess the part that is the most frustrating is that as a result I don't really save or take many pictures. i don't backup or save any additional contacts. I don't save anything important in messaging applications. Oh, and I can't decrypt pgp communications when I'm out of the country, because like hell I'm bringing that accross the border. I've had my encounters with law enforcement, I won't ever feel comfortable again. I'll never forget the look on their faces when they look at you like they know something super private and they find it hilarious.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

Differential access to civil rights are a big part of why I gave up my driver's license. Pulling over a driver and pointing a gun at them? Trivial. Pulling over a livery vehicle and searching the passenger? Complicated. Demanding someone in a car give you their phone's password? Trivial. Doing the same at the airport? My weekends filled for a month hosting fundraisers for PACs.

jliptzin 10y ago
I am not sure I understand the last part of your post could you elaborate further?

monksy 10y ago

After hearing about these stories on Canada, why would I ever want to go back there? They sound atrocious.

GuiA 10y ago

I'm sorry this happened to you. I don't think anyone should do this under any pretext - accepting will open you to so much more potential risk than not. In moments like this, I'm happy to be employed by a large company that has a strong vested interest against people snooping through my emails. If such a situation were to happen in my case, I would just reply "I cannot do that as this phone belongs to $company. My employer knows of my travel itinerary and if I am delayed they will be very happy to send lawyers to sort things out." It's sad and dystopian, but I trust my employer to watch out for my interests more so than any government.