6 ms·

Harvard research suggests an entire generation has lost faith in democracy

32 points by sgustard 10y ago

excalibur 10y ago
Millennials. Boomers. Millennials. Boomers. Repeat ad nauseam. Generation X is sick of your bullshit.
- Semiapies 10y ago
  Yeah, but we're outnumbered.
- taylodl 10y ago
  Amen!
pjc50 10y ago
Huge if true, but I'm going to apply a huge amount of skepticism. Only 19% of millenials believe that military coups are illegitimate? Really?
- kelnage 10y ago
  Well, consider the recent attempted coup in Turkey. The Western media definitely has portrayed the military in a sympathetic light and the Government/Erdogan less so. Not saying that's right or wrong - but it implies to me that not everyone will see these issues as black or white.
- nkurz 10y ago
  It might depend on the interpretation of "legitimate", and make more sense if "are legitimate" is interpreted as "ever legitimate". For example, could a military coup in North Korea be "legitimate"? They give some more detail in their linked earlier paper: Similarly, while 43 percent of older Americans, including those born between the world wars and their baby-boomer children, do not believe that it is legitimate in a democracy for the military to take over when the government is incompetent or failing to do its job, the figure among millennials is much lower at 19 percent. In Europe, the generation gap is somewhat less stark but equally clear, with 53 percent of older Europeans and only 36 percent of millennials strongly rejecting the notion that a government’s incompetence can justify having the army “take over.” http://www.journalofdemocracy.org/sites/default/files/Foa%26Mounk-27-3.pdf http://www.journalofdemocracy.org/sites/default/files/Foa%26... While still striking, and while I still wonder whether generational differences in terminology are a factor, the addition of "when the government is incompetent or failing to do its job" does make it more plausible.
joe_momma 10y ago
This coincides with the invention of WikiPedia, Youtube, social media, search engines, and mobile phone cameras, which are the new pillars of democracy and allow the spread of information which in the past would not have been known.
- huherto 10y ago
  They also allow to spread fake information which we are learning that it can be really, really bad.
  - joe_momma 10y ago
    Fake information has always been available, in fact it may have been the only information available at the time. What is interesting is all of the new information and our ability to process it as much as we want.
hood_syntax 10y ago
> Only around a third of US millennials see civil rights as “absolutely essential” in a democracy Can we see the data for this? Absolutely shocking to me.
- toor2 10y ago
  You can have a highly stable democracy without civil rights. Just look at the United States
  - grzm 10y ago
    Would you expand on this? Are you implying that the US isn't perfect in its civil rights in practice? Is actively against civil rights? Values civil rights and wants to improve? Had in the past huge disparities in civil rights and was still stable at those times?
    - toor2 10y ago
      I was mainly referring to the civil rights practices of the United States in the past (i.e. Slavery, segregation, lack of suffrage for women, etc). The United States functioned just fine as a democracy when well over half of it's population was lacking basic rights. Civil rights aren't required in a democracy as long as a portion of the population (classically white males in the US) has the right to vote.
      - grzm 10y ago
        Gotcha. There's nuance in this answer that wasn't obvious to me in your first comment. Thanks for expanding.
mr_blobs 10y ago
I think an entire generation has just learned a lesson in civics. Our system worked as designed: The candidate that won the electoral college won the presidency. I lost faith in democracy after the election because of the amount of companies and people that feel like the only way to beat Trump in the next election is to suppress the freedoms of the people that support him. It shows me that they never really believed in democracy in the first place and only played along because their candidate was the projected winner.
- b1tr0t 10y ago
  "I lost faith in democracy after the election because of the amount of companies and people that feel like the only way to beat Trump in the next election is to suppress the freedoms of the people that support him." Evidence of systematic suppression please? Who? What? When? Where?
  - mr_blobs 10y ago
    It's subliminal and covert. You can't really measure it. It comes in the form of an attitude and a culture change. Sound familiar?
    - dpark 10y ago
      > Sound familiar? Nope. Sounds like BS. You can't measure it? Doesn't exist, then.
      - mr_blobs 10y ago
        Good. Then the same thing applies to covert sexism and racism that's posted about constantly on HN. I'm glad we can agree on something.
        dpark 10y ago
        Sexism and racism can be measured in meaningful ways. Even where not directly measurable (though there are direct measurements as well), their effects can be shown.
socalnate1 10y ago
"Democracy is the worst form of government ... except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." The issue is that this entire generation hasn't really had much direct experience with "all those other forms."
- devoply 10y ago
  We don't have democracy, we have liberal democracy there is a significant distinction. People have lost faith in liberal democracy because they feel it's no longer looking out for their interests but the interest of the minority. Whether that's the rich or other groups, for the lower classes this is framed as a racial struggle. The issue is not that they have no experience with other forms, it's that liberal democracy is suppose to protect the minority from the majority, but it seems the opposite problem is now the case. The majority feels it needs to be protected from the minority. Either the system caters to that, or people are going to rebel. You need to protect the minority because they are good for the economy and the masses. Until the masses no longer feel that this is the case. That's what the so-called pseudo-elite don't understand. The relationship is one of power sharing, not of ownership. This is not a normative statement, this is a realist statement. This is how things work in the real world. We have no experience with this, other than perhaps Fascism, because liberal democracy has not had this problem before. In that there has been constant growth and therefore employment for its entire history, sharing the power between minority and majority. You can close your eyes to this, but if you have a bunch of unemployed people that feel dis-empowered as a group they are going to react. First they are going to react by electing the likes of Trump. When that doesn't work they are going to react with force. Unless you do something about the way that they feel about the political situation. As Mark Cuban said, money makes everything better. They don't have money, they are reacting.
- basch 10y ago
  democracy being the best choice is so ingrained in us from childhood, questioning it becomes painful. its like finding out about santa. cognitive dissonance comes into play, and any critical thinking is squashed. its hard for people to even question democracy in a hypothetical environment, it being the fairest is almost established as a basic law of physics. even the title of the article ... "lost faith" seems to imply its a bad thing to question democracy.
agentgt 10y ago
I wonder if part of the problem is democracy is rather ill defined. I'm sure you have seen the classic case where some one says the United States is not a democracy but a republic... usually its a troll comment. Regardless I think there is general confusion as to what a democracy is [1] and isn't. [1]: http://www.economist.com/node/8908438 http://www.economist.com/node/8908438
flamesnare2 10y ago
Something to note in the article is how interest in politics overall has declined in the newer generation. Thus the lack of faith in democracy, if such a trend is legitimate, may be the result of an increasingly apathetic culture.
polotics 10y ago
Could this maybe because their democracy ratio defined as: (decisions that your vote could influence)/(decisions that affect you) ...is low enough that they don't think it makes a difference either way? Pro-tip: vote with your feet, this works.
mcphage 10y ago
I think that it's interesting that a lot of the major social advances in the US—ending segregation, legalizing abortion, legalizing gay marriage—are the result of Supreme Court decisions, which is probably the least democratic part of our government. Not all, certainly. But I guess I'm not so surprised that some young people don't see democratic action as the only way to advance social progress.
jmclnx 10y ago
One thing I do not see mentioned, Democracy depends upon a educated voters and that education has been eroded greatly over the last 50 or so years. Voters also need to review real facts, not facts created by "Reality TV" shows we call the news media and various Internet Sites. No wonder faith in Democracy is falling. An educated person can easily spot these fake stories from a mile away.

32 points by sgustard 10y ago

excalibur 10y ago

Millennials. Boomers. Millennials. Boomers. Repeat ad nauseam. Generation X is sick of your bullshit.

Semiapies 10y ago
Yeah, but we're outnumbered.
taylodl 10y ago
Amen!

pjc50 10y ago

Huge if true, but I'm going to apply a huge amount of skepticism. Only 19% of millenials believe that military coups are illegitimate? Really?

kelnage 10y ago
Well, consider the recent attempted coup in Turkey. The Western media definitely has portrayed the military in a sympathetic light and the Government/Erdogan less so. Not saying that's right or wrong - but it implies to me that not everyone will see these issues as black or white.
nkurz 10y ago
It might depend on the interpretation of "legitimate", and make more sense if "are legitimate" is interpreted as "ever legitimate". For example, could a military coup in North Korea be "legitimate"? They give some more detail in their linked earlier paper: Similarly, while 43 percent of older Americans, including those born between the world wars and their baby-boomer children, do not believe that it is legitimate in a democracy for the military to take over when the government is incompetent or failing to do its job, the figure among millennials is much lower at 19 percent. In Europe, the generation gap is somewhat less stark but equally clear, with 53 percent of older Europeans and only 36 percent of millennials strongly rejecting the notion that a government’s incompetence can justify having the army “take over.” http://www.journalofdemocracy.org/sites/default/files/Foa%26Mounk-27-3.pdf http://www.journalofdemocracy.org/sites/default/files/Foa%26... While still striking, and while I still wonder whether generational differences in terminology are a factor, the addition of "when the government is incompetent or failing to do its job" does make it more plausible.

joe_momma 10y ago

This coincides with the invention of WikiPedia, Youtube, social media, search engines, and mobile phone cameras, which are the new pillars of democracy and allow the spread of information which in the past would not have been known.

huherto 10y ago
They also allow to spread fake information which we are learning that it can be really, really bad.
- joe_momma 10y ago
  Fake information has always been available, in fact it may have been the only information available at the time. What is interesting is all of the new information and our ability to process it as much as we want.

hood_syntax 10y ago

> Only around a third of US millennials see civil rights as “absolutely essential” in a democracy Can we see the data for this? Absolutely shocking to me.

toor2 10y ago
You can have a highly stable democracy without civil rights. Just look at the United States
- grzm 10y ago
  Would you expand on this? Are you implying that the US isn't perfect in its civil rights in practice? Is actively against civil rights? Values civil rights and wants to improve? Had in the past huge disparities in civil rights and was still stable at those times?
  - toor2 10y ago
    I was mainly referring to the civil rights practices of the United States in the past (i.e. Slavery, segregation, lack of suffrage for women, etc). The United States functioned just fine as a democracy when well over half of it's population was lacking basic rights. Civil rights aren't required in a democracy as long as a portion of the population (classically white males in the US) has the right to vote.
    - grzm 10y ago
      Gotcha. There's nuance in this answer that wasn't obvious to me in your first comment. Thanks for expanding.

mr_blobs 10y ago

I think an entire generation has just learned a lesson in civics. Our system worked as designed: The candidate that won the electoral college won the presidency. I lost faith in democracy after the election because of the amount of companies and people that feel like the only way to beat Trump in the next election is to suppress the freedoms of the people that support him. It shows me that they never really believed in democracy in the first place and only played along because their candidate was the projected winner.

b1tr0t 10y ago
"I lost faith in democracy after the election because of the amount of companies and people that feel like the only way to beat Trump in the next election is to suppress the freedoms of the people that support him." Evidence of systematic suppression please? Who? What? When? Where?
- mr_blobs 10y ago
  It's subliminal and covert. You can't really measure it. It comes in the form of an attitude and a culture change. Sound familiar?
  - dpark 10y ago
    > Sound familiar? Nope. Sounds like BS. You can't measure it? Doesn't exist, then.
    - mr_blobs 10y ago
      Good. Then the same thing applies to covert sexism and racism that's posted about constantly on HN. I'm glad we can agree on something.
      - dpark 10y ago
        Sexism and racism can be measured in meaningful ways. Even where not directly measurable (though there are direct measurements as well), their effects can be shown.

socalnate1 10y ago

"Democracy is the worst form of government ... except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." The issue is that this entire generation hasn't really had much direct experience with "all those other forms."

devoply 10y ago
We don't have democracy, we have liberal democracy there is a significant distinction. People have lost faith in liberal democracy because they feel it's no longer looking out for their interests but the interest of the minority. Whether that's the rich or other groups, for the lower classes this is framed as a racial struggle. The issue is not that they have no experience with other forms, it's that liberal democracy is suppose to protect the minority from the majority, but it seems the opposite problem is now the case. The majority feels it needs to be protected from the minority. Either the system caters to that, or people are going to rebel. You need to protect the minority because they are good for the economy and the masses. Until the masses no longer feel that this is the case. That's what the so-called pseudo-elite don't understand. The relationship is one of power sharing, not of ownership. This is not a normative statement, this is a realist statement. This is how things work in the real world. We have no experience with this, other than perhaps Fascism, because liberal democracy has not had this problem before. In that there has been constant growth and therefore employment for its entire history, sharing the power between minority and majority. You can close your eyes to this, but if you have a bunch of unemployed people that feel dis-empowered as a group they are going to react. First they are going to react by electing the likes of Trump. When that doesn't work they are going to react with force. Unless you do something about the way that they feel about the political situation. As Mark Cuban said, money makes everything better. They don't have money, they are reacting.
basch 10y ago
democracy being the best choice is so ingrained in us from childhood, questioning it becomes painful. its like finding out about santa. cognitive dissonance comes into play, and any critical thinking is squashed. its hard for people to even question democracy in a hypothetical environment, it being the fairest is almost established as a basic law of physics. even the title of the article ... "lost faith" seems to imply its a bad thing to question democracy.

agentgt 10y ago

I wonder if part of the problem is democracy is rather ill defined. I'm sure you have seen the classic case where some one says the United States is not a democracy but a republic... usually its a troll comment. Regardless I think there is general confusion as to what a democracy is [1] and isn't. [1]: http://www.economist.com/node/8908438 http://www.economist.com/node/8908438

flamesnare2 10y ago

Something to note in the article is how interest in politics overall has declined in the newer generation. Thus the lack of faith in democracy, if such a trend is legitimate, may be the result of an increasingly apathetic culture.

polotics 10y ago

Could this maybe because their democracy ratio defined as: (decisions that your vote could influence)/(decisions that affect you) ...is low enough that they don't think it makes a difference either way? Pro-tip: vote with your feet, this works.

mcphage 10y ago

I think that it's interesting that a lot of the major social advances in the US—ending segregation, legalizing abortion, legalizing gay marriage—are the result of Supreme Court decisions, which is probably the least democratic part of our government. Not all, certainly. But I guess I'm not so surprised that some young people don't see democratic action as the only way to advance social progress.

jmclnx 10y ago

One thing I do not see mentioned, Democracy depends upon a educated voters and that education has been eroded greatly over the last 50 or so years. Voters also need to review real facts, not facts created by "Reality TV" shows we call the news media and various Internet Sites. No wonder faith in Democracy is falling. An educated person can easily spot these fake stories from a mile away.