6 ms·

WeChat uses one censorship policy in China and another internationally

77 points by BuuQu9hu 10y ago

est 10y ago
Last time Facebook did this, HN users think it's not censorship https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13019654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13019654
- nothrabannosir 10y ago
  I don't understand this game of linking to one reply in the middle of a thread and claiming "this is what HN thinks." The actual top comment on that article says "damn that's evil." Doesn't that count? Hnwatch, which should be a good thing (why not keep a sanity check on things?), does the same. What point are you trying to make? "Someone said something!" ???
  - inimino 10y ago
    Pretty sure the point is the double standard. Plenty of people are fine with Facebook doing it, but where are those same people standing up for Wechat's right to do whatever they want in their private walled garden?
    - nothrabannosir 10y ago
      The crucial missing word is "some". "Some HN users thought lalala." It dilutes the sentence appropriately and shows how meaningless it truly is. Some HN users think chemtrails are real. I saw one of those comments. So what?
      - est 10y ago
        I am sorry for making you feel strange by linking to a similar story earlier.
      - inimino 10y ago
        Obviously not every HN user has the same perspective, but there are broad tendencies. HN is not a random sampling of mankind. If product A is praised for doing something while product B is unanimously condemned for doing the exact same thing in another country, it is reasonable to point that out. Plenty of people were eager to point out that Facebook censoring fake news wouldn't really be censorship, because it is not being done by the government but by a private company. Of course, that's exactly how it works in China. So where are all of those people on this story, pointing out that what Wechat does isn't really censorship and that this really isn't really a free speech issue?
        est 10y ago
        > because it is not being done by the government but by a private company. Well there's term for that: self-censorship.
- zyx321 10y ago
  Ah yes, the old "Strictly speaking it's not technically censorship in the legal sense (according to US federal law) therefore none of the ethical concerns regarding censorship apply."
rdlecler1 10y ago
The bigger issue is not just censorship but the potential governments access to communications of non-Chinese commercial actors. While it's common to do business on WeChat I don't know if anyone outside of China would feel confident that this isn't a security risk.
- dragonbonheur 10y ago
  Do you honestly think US-based services are exempt from NSA/NRO/CIA snooping and should be trusted?
  - ttflee 10y ago
    No, but at least US is not likely to leak some random personal info to non-allied government, e.g. China in this case, on purpose. It is neither legal nor preferable for the U.S. government to do so, I guess. And it might also be probable for an U.S. citizen to feel safer under the surveillance of an opponent of U.S., if not by the U.S. simultaneously.
  - inimino 10y ago
    Do you think the NSA is going to give your trade secrets to a domestic competitor? That's the concern.
    - mtgx 10y ago
      Um, yes? It may not happen to the extent it happens in China, though, but I'm certain they do it, too. After all the NSA is run by the same type of corrupt elite as the rest of the government is. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/world/nsa-dragnet-included-allies-aid-groups-and-business-elite.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/world/nsa-dragnet-included... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131112/08223925211/if-nsa-isnt-engaged-economic-espionage-why-is-ustr-considered-customer-intelligence.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131112/08223925211/if-ns...
    - goodplay 10y ago
b6 10y ago
I lived in China for 3 years and speak pretty decent Mandarin. I'm really grateful people are doing analyses like this, but, and I am very sad to say this, I think it may not matter because very few people want to discuss anything subversive anyway. Recently I tried to engage with my oldest Chinese friend about the Sesame Credit system that I think will gradually be adapted to compel more and more obedience. It was like water off a duck's back. As far as she was concerned, the government's description was the end of the story. Anecdote, of course, but I can't do a real survey. My feeling is that I could try all day (speaking very frankly on WeChat) to get Chinese friends to at least understand my concerns and I'd just get blown off 20 different ways. I hope I'm wrong, that it's just my limited experience that makes the situation seem gloomier than it really is.
- tluyben2 10y ago
  Same experience with my friends mostly but seems them and their families are happy with how it goes and believe their gov is doing well for them. Which is more than I can say I believe my gov is doing.
- tcrews 10y ago
  Two years ago, two colleagues from China came to visit (South American country) on a business trip (mostly training and technical discussions). I took them to a nice restaurant after a day of meetings. I said something about the censorship being bad after they said they couldn't access some websites I mentioned. They answered a nervous "It's ok" and an awkward silence followed. I sensed they had a lot of things to say about that but even 6000km+ away from China, they still didn't feel comfortable voicing any concerns.
  - uiuiuop 10y ago
    I was just in China and when I first met my colleagues they started to tell me what I would need to bypass the Great Firewall. Also, just about every taxi I took, the taxi driver would complain about the government. Maybe your colleagues just didn't want to talk about it in a professional setting?

77 points by BuuQu9hu 10y ago

est 10y ago

Last time Facebook did this, HN users think it's not censorship https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13019654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13019654

nothrabannosir 10y ago
I don't understand this game of linking to one reply in the middle of a thread and claiming "this is what HN thinks." The actual top comment on that article says "damn that's evil." Doesn't that count? Hnwatch, which should be a good thing (why not keep a sanity check on things?), does the same. What point are you trying to make? "Someone said something!" ???
- inimino 10y ago
  Pretty sure the point is the double standard. Plenty of people are fine with Facebook doing it, but where are those same people standing up for Wechat's right to do whatever they want in their private walled garden?
  - nothrabannosir 10y ago
    The crucial missing word is "some". "Some HN users thought lalala." It dilutes the sentence appropriately and shows how meaningless it truly is. Some HN users think chemtrails are real. I saw one of those comments. So what?
    - est 10y ago
      I am sorry for making you feel strange by linking to a similar story earlier.
    - inimino 10y ago
      Obviously not every HN user has the same perspective, but there are broad tendencies. HN is not a random sampling of mankind. If product A is praised for doing something while product B is unanimously condemned for doing the exact same thing in another country, it is reasonable to point that out. Plenty of people were eager to point out that Facebook censoring fake news wouldn't really be censorship, because it is not being done by the government but by a private company. Of course, that's exactly how it works in China. So where are all of those people on this story, pointing out that what Wechat does isn't really censorship and that this really isn't really a free speech issue?
      - est 10y ago
        > because it is not being done by the government but by a private company. Well there's term for that: self-censorship.
zyx321 10y ago
Ah yes, the old "Strictly speaking it's not technically censorship in the legal sense (according to US federal law) therefore none of the ethical concerns regarding censorship apply."

rdlecler1 10y ago

The bigger issue is not just censorship but the potential governments access to communications of non-Chinese commercial actors. While it's common to do business on WeChat I don't know if anyone outside of China would feel confident that this isn't a security risk.

dragonbonheur 10y ago
Do you honestly think US-based services are exempt from NSA/NRO/CIA snooping and should be trusted?
- ttflee 10y ago
  No, but at least US is not likely to leak some random personal info to non-allied government, e.g. China in this case, on purpose. It is neither legal nor preferable for the U.S. government to do so, I guess. And it might also be probable for an U.S. citizen to feel safer under the surveillance of an opponent of U.S., if not by the U.S. simultaneously.
- inimino 10y ago
  Do you think the NSA is going to give your trade secrets to a domestic competitor? That's the concern.
  - mtgx 10y ago
    Um, yes? It may not happen to the extent it happens in China, though, but I'm certain they do it, too. After all the NSA is run by the same type of corrupt elite as the rest of the government is. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/world/nsa-dragnet-included-allies-aid-groups-and-business-elite.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/world/nsa-dragnet-included... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131112/08223925211/if-nsa-isnt-engaged-economic-espionage-why-is-ustr-considered-customer-intelligence.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131112/08223925211/if-ns...
  - goodplay 10y ago

b6 10y ago

I lived in China for 3 years and speak pretty decent Mandarin. I'm really grateful people are doing analyses like this, but, and I am very sad to say this, I think it may not matter because very few people want to discuss anything subversive anyway. Recently I tried to engage with my oldest Chinese friend about the Sesame Credit system that I think will gradually be adapted to compel more and more obedience. It was like water off a duck's back. As far as she was concerned, the government's description was the end of the story. Anecdote, of course, but I can't do a real survey. My feeling is that I could try all day (speaking very frankly on WeChat) to get Chinese friends to at least understand my concerns and I'd just get blown off 20 different ways. I hope I'm wrong, that it's just my limited experience that makes the situation seem gloomier than it really is.

tluyben2 10y ago
Same experience with my friends mostly but seems them and their families are happy with how it goes and believe their gov is doing well for them. Which is more than I can say I believe my gov is doing.
tcrews 10y ago
Two years ago, two colleagues from China came to visit (South American country) on a business trip (mostly training and technical discussions). I took them to a nice restaurant after a day of meetings. I said something about the censorship being bad after they said they couldn't access some websites I mentioned. They answered a nervous "It's ok" and an awkward silence followed. I sensed they had a lot of things to say about that but even 6000km+ away from China, they still didn't feel comfortable voicing any concerns.
- uiuiuop 10y ago
  I was just in China and when I first met my colleagues they started to tell me what I would need to bypass the Great Firewall. Also, just about every taxi I took, the taxi driver would complain about the government. Maybe your colleagues just didn't want to talk about it in a professional setting?