21 ms·

I saw this earlier and had hopes that the update would just let me choose "While Using" in the app settings, like some other apps allow you even if they request

by yladiz 10y ago

I saw this earlier and had hopes that the update would just let me choose "While Using" in the app settings, like some other apps allow you even if they request access even while not using the app, but the settings only allow for "Always" or "Never" on iPhone. However, you can use Uber without allowing GPS, so it's not all or nothing. I'm a little disturbed that they need any information after I use Uber though. They know where I was picked up and where I'm going, why do they need to know where I'm at after I get dropped off? That's a little intrusive to me. The proposed argument in the article, "Uber hopes to eliminate the most frustrating part of the experience: the game of phone tag that both the rider and driver play when trying to coordinate the pickup spot," is fine and I'd accept that even though I'm extremely wary of apps that have access to my GPS data while I'n not using the app because I can't see it in fine detail (as far as I know you only can see that some app is accessing your GPS currently, not which one(s) exactly). However, Uber has no need for the data after I am finished. I'm not a fan of being tracked in general, by governments or otherwise, but for a private company to request data after I finish using their services is intrusive and maybe this is conspiracy but I wouldn't be surprised if this data is sent real time and it's possible to see where a user is at any given time after they leave the car (during that 5 minute window). I'm also curious how this will bump up against EU privacy laws. I'm in the states and this may only be enabled for certain markets, but I wonder if this would cause issues in EU if it's enabled there.

HappyTypist 10y ago
It's to analyse where riders actually go after being dropped off; for example understanding that if you want to go to building XYZ you have to get off here. Collecting data for self driving cars probably.
- yladiz 10y ago
  Yeah, but why does Uber need/care about that information? If I ask to be dropped off at X and walk a couple blocks to Y, Uber shouldn't care. I can understand the argument that maybe going to certain buildings you have to be dropped off at a specific spot, but that seems like a minor gain for something that's more than just a minor intrusion.
  - duaneb 10y ago
    They don't need the information. They care because they are data driven and not personally culpable for their invasions of privacy. Why not collect everything you can without getting more permissions?
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      Data driven and being a giant Hoover isn't the same thing. One is about making decisions rationally. The other is about acquisition for acquisition sake. Personally, over never seen any evidence that Uber actually knows what it's doing except making a shit-ton of money. Even the self-drivIng car strikes me more as a sideffext of having a bunch of money they needed to spend and it won the rock-paper-scissors contest against rockets. Doubly so for the "ME TOO!" Doordash / Postmates competitor.
      - pinewurst 10y ago
        There's no evidence that Uber makes a shit-ton of money. What evidence exists, points the other way: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-one-understanding-ubers-bleak-operating-economics.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver... http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-two-understanding-ubers-uncompetitive-costs.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver...
        jonathankoren 10y ago
        I stand corrected. It was clear that all these were attempts to extract additional revenue from their existing user base and infrastructure, and weren't very targeted, but for some reason I thought this due to a combination of flattening profits in an grow-at-all-costs VC environment, and being drunk on money. (Google is a company that is drunk on money.) Well... I still think Uber is drunk on money. Just VC money. And I'm sure that if Uber does implode, Travis will still come out a hundred-millionare and a reputation of being a business genius, even though he never actually turned the growth into a successful sustainable business. Kind of like Sean Parker and Napster. https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unicorns-new-clothes/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unic...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- op00to 10y ago
  Great! Why not allow people to opt out of the enhanced location gathering? I'll continue the old fashioned way of telling my driver where I want to go, and retain my small shred of privacy. People who are unable to navigate the big scary world by themselves can allow Uber to collect data and drop them off where they want to go. Just let me opt out.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
nojvek 10y ago
Well it's the same company that creepily gives me a code interview in the app because it knows I go to a software company couple of times a week and pushes a job ad. Uber has a lot of sensitive information regarding users. Who goes where and when. This in the wrong hand can be very disastrous. E.g Trump to Uber: "gimme list of all people who to to mosques frequently. No tax for you." Uber: "Here you go. Just don't tell anyone. "
- lbotos 10y ago
  While I love this scenario from a "Trump could abuse his power" narrative, have there been any recorded cases of businesses in America getting "Secret" tax breaks? Seems like it'd be pretty hard to pull off with the IRS. Sure, maybe they "Bundled" that data it in to some ~other~ lobbied tax deal, but I'd imagine someone would whistle blow that pretty quick in this post-snowden world?
  - abstrakraft 10y ago
    >> Seems like it'd be pretty hard to pull off with the IRS. Unless the IRS itself is the instrument of abuse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > have there been any recorded cases of businesses in America getting "Secret" tax breaks? The tax law itself isn't secret, but companies certainly lobby for and receive tax breaks and other benefits passed openly by Congress. That's what lobbying is about, of course.
  - r00fus 10y ago
    Post-snowden? We all know about it but the power abuse still happens.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  Code interview in the app? What do you mean?
coldtea 10y ago
>why do they need to know where I'm at after I get dropped off? That's a little intrusive to me A little?
null0pointer 10y ago
> as far as I know you only can see that some app is accessing your GPS currently, not which one(s) exactly On iOS if you go into [Settings > Privacy > Location Services] you can see which apps have used your location "recently" or in the last 24 hours. There is a legend at the bottom of that page for what the icons mean.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  Is there any way to see on Android?
  - kaspiCZ 10y ago
    Settings > personal > location (Android 6 at least). You can disable the privilege in Settings > device > apps > Uber > permissions.
mortenjorck 10y ago
There's a simple way to send a message: Set the location services setting to "Never" and just enter addresses for now (copy and paste from Maps if it's easier). The important thing is that their analytics will pick this up, and if enough users do it, hopefully point toward re-enabling "While using."
- walterbell 10y ago
  Or don't accept this app update. If/when Uber stops the current app version (with 3 privacy settings) from working with their server API, switch from Uber to a competitor. Apple can also change their policy for ride-sharing apps, to force "While Using" as an option, or block Uber's update from the App Store. Remember that it was only after apps abused the contact database, that permissions were added by Apple to give users control over apps. Apple can step up now and define a new policy that responds to these new abuses of user choice, within the ride-sharing app category. This is one of the few benefits of Apple's walled garden review of apps. Perhaps we will eventually thank Uber for pushing the boundaries of etiquette, forcing Apple to regulate Uber and their peers.
  - gchokov 10y ago
    How can you not accept the update, when they do not even write release notes?
    - walterbell 10y ago
      I've learned the hard way to time-delay app updates from over-reaching companies. A week or two is usually sufficient for major issues to surface on HN. You're right - it would be better if Apple allowed users to rollback to the N-1 version of an app. That would send a real-time signal from users to app vendors, rather than slow complaints via press and social media.
      - newscracker 10y ago
        > it would be better if Apple allowed users to rollback to the N-1 version of an app. Apple should allow users to revert to any older version. There are so many apps that become worse over time, and it's only after an update that the shortcomings are found, with no way to remedy the situation. But Apple really doesn't care about such things on the user experience front. I have provided Apple feedback on this before. The thing I like in this case is that iOS explicitly warns the user when an app requests for location services permission for use while the app is not running.
employee8000 10y ago
Uber employee here. We were told the reason to track up to 5 mins after the trip is for fraud, ex if a driver doesn't end the trip when she is supposed to. and to figure out where the pick up spots for each address are. A large building may have multiple points where people get picked up or dropped off and knowing those points would be very useful for the drivers and riders. And just as a side note, take it with a few grains of salt but I know it's not easy to just trust a company with such personal information, and certainly I wouldn't either, but Uber as a company is very ethical and takes the responsibility that we are entrusted with very seriously. There are a lot of things we do for our customers that isn't reported by the news, but we always try to do the right thing. Ex. When we had a few outages earlier this year, we made sure that the drivers who were active at the time were "made whole" by paying them for the time we were down. Yes, there were issues a few years ago with statements and actions that were done, but the Uber today and the employees that work here now take a lot of pride in what they do. I would never have worked here if I didn't feel Uber was an ethical company. And neither would my coworkers. There are thousands of engineers now working here and we would be the first ones who would stand up to management if we felt that something nefarious or even careless was being done with user's personal information. Many of the company values revolve around "toe stepping" and "principled confrontation" and this means even against our own management. So I know it's not easy to believe, and it's easy for me to say since I work here, but nothing nefarious is going on. If there was, we the engineers would be against it completely.
- dimino 10y ago
  > but Uber as a company is very ethical You've got to understand how directly this clashes with the media coverage re: driver rights.
  - employee8000 10y ago
    Yes and as an employee looking from the inside out, I see how negative the press is, and before I joined Uber I was biased by the media coverage as well. But everything I've seen on the inside directly goes against the media coverage I've seen. Take it with a grain of salt obviously.
uiuiuop 10y ago
> why do they need to know where I'm at after I get dropped off? In China, there's a company that provides a free loyalty point program. The store signs up for it, and users download the app and can use it to collect points when a transaction is made at the store. The points can then be exchanged for discounts and other stuff. All of this is free. How they make money is by selling the user behavior data. One of the features is the app tracks where the user goes after a transaction is made, so stores can find patterns and possible ways to cross promote. For example, it might show a trend that 60% of customers will go to the movie theater after dining at your restaurant. Or will go to the Nike store after visiting yours, so perhaps you want to adjust your prices, etc.
- swyman 10y ago
  That's all well and good, but I'm turning off Uber's access to my GPS entirely.
  - uiuiuop 10y ago
    Oh yeah, I don't like it either. Just saying this is another revenue stream for companies.
kriro 10y ago
I'm pretty sure in Germany it'll pretty much be "this is illegal as it tracks data at the individual level". Especially since there is no need for this to enable the core service.
hutattedonmyarm 10y ago
> I saw this earlier and had hopes that the update would just let me choose "While Using" in the app settings, like some other apps allow you even if they request access even while not using the app, but the settings only allow for "Always" or "Never" on iPhone. However, you can use Uber without allowing GPS, so it's not all or nothing. You can force quit the app after using it, so it doesn't get GPS access. "Always" only grants access while the app is open in the background (of foreground of course). Not pretty, but a workaround. > (as far as I know you only can see that some app is accessing your GPS currently, not which one(s) exactly Don't have my phone set to English, so wording might be slightly off. Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services. A purple arrow means the app used GPS "recently" (so a few minutes ago)
flexie 10y ago
Violation of privacy laws is one thing and bad enough in itself. But let's not forget that Uber violates various taxi laws as well. In Denmark, just now, the state prosecutor has formally prosecuted Uber for colluding to violate the taxi laws. So far, different Uber drivers have received fines and those fines have now been tried in appellate courts that upheld the fines. Now it's Uber's turn for its part in the violations. I am not a big fan of those taxi laws, but I am not a fan of billion dollar corporations just doing as they are pleased either. They seem to have no regard for laws.
- sdoering 10y ago
  Didn't the Uber execs exactly state this publicly - that they are willing to brake the laws that they see are hindering innovation and a disruption? I remember having read something like this but am unable to find it in my archives.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    Try this one: http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/technology/uber-drivers-operating-illegally-should-expect-fines-sa-government/news-story/3daa3668c7e3cb1335f4a0f22238d2f2 http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/technology/uber-driv...
gourou 10y ago
> I'm also curious how this will bump up against EU privacy laws Waze has location settings set to Always, so I guess they won't care again.
ninv 10y ago
"little intrusive" are very kind words. i would call it a brazen theft of privacy.

by yladiz 10y ago

HappyTypist 10y ago

It's to analyse where riders actually go after being dropped off; for example understanding that if you want to go to building XYZ you have to get off here. Collecting data for self driving cars probably.

yladiz 10y ago
Yeah, but why does Uber need/care about that information? If I ask to be dropped off at X and walk a couple blocks to Y, Uber shouldn't care. I can understand the argument that maybe going to certain buildings you have to be dropped off at a specific spot, but that seems like a minor gain for something that's more than just a minor intrusion.
- duaneb 10y ago
  They don't need the information. They care because they are data driven and not personally culpable for their invasions of privacy. Why not collect everything you can without getting more permissions?
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    Data driven and being a giant Hoover isn't the same thing. One is about making decisions rationally. The other is about acquisition for acquisition sake. Personally, over never seen any evidence that Uber actually knows what it's doing except making a shit-ton of money. Even the self-drivIng car strikes me more as a sideffext of having a bunch of money they needed to spend and it won the rock-paper-scissors contest against rockets. Doubly so for the "ME TOO!" Doordash / Postmates competitor.
    - pinewurst 10y ago
      There's no evidence that Uber makes a shit-ton of money. What evidence exists, points the other way: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-one-understanding-ubers-bleak-operating-economics.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver... http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-two-understanding-ubers-uncompetitive-costs.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver...
      - jonathankoren 10y ago
        I stand corrected. It was clear that all these were attempts to extract additional revenue from their existing user base and infrastructure, and weren't very targeted, but for some reason I thought this due to a combination of flattening profits in an grow-at-all-costs VC environment, and being drunk on money. (Google is a company that is drunk on money.) Well... I still think Uber is drunk on money. Just VC money. And I'm sure that if Uber does implode, Travis will still come out a hundred-millionare and a reputation of being a business genius, even though he never actually turned the growth into a successful sustainable business. Kind of like Sean Parker and Napster. https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unicorns-new-clothes/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unic...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
op00to 10y ago
Great! Why not allow people to opt out of the enhanced location gathering? I'll continue the old fashioned way of telling my driver where I want to go, and retain my small shred of privacy. People who are unable to navigate the big scary world by themselves can allow Uber to collect data and drop them off where they want to go. Just let me opt out.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

nojvek 10y ago

Well it's the same company that creepily gives me a code interview in the app because it knows I go to a software company couple of times a week and pushes a job ad. Uber has a lot of sensitive information regarding users. Who goes where and when. This in the wrong hand can be very disastrous. E.g Trump to Uber: "gimme list of all people who to to mosques frequently. No tax for you." Uber: "Here you go. Just don't tell anyone. "

lbotos 10y ago
While I love this scenario from a "Trump could abuse his power" narrative, have there been any recorded cases of businesses in America getting "Secret" tax breaks? Seems like it'd be pretty hard to pull off with the IRS. Sure, maybe they "Bundled" that data it in to some ~other~ lobbied tax deal, but I'd imagine someone would whistle blow that pretty quick in this post-snowden world?
- abstrakraft 10y ago
  >> Seems like it'd be pretty hard to pull off with the IRS. Unless the IRS itself is the instrument of abuse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy
- hackuser 10y ago
  > have there been any recorded cases of businesses in America getting "Secret" tax breaks? The tax law itself isn't secret, but companies certainly lobby for and receive tax breaks and other benefits passed openly by Congress. That's what lobbying is about, of course.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Post-snowden? We all know about it but the power abuse still happens.
pmiller2 10y ago
Code interview in the app? What do you mean?

coldtea 10y ago

>why do they need to know where I'm at after I get dropped off? That's a little intrusive to me A little?

null0pointer 10y ago

> as far as I know you only can see that some app is accessing your GPS currently, not which one(s) exactly On iOS if you go into [Settings > Privacy > Location Services] you can see which apps have used your location "recently" or in the last 24 hours. There is a legend at the bottom of that page for what the icons mean.

brokenmachine 10y ago
Is there any way to see on Android?
- kaspiCZ 10y ago
  Settings > personal > location (Android 6 at least). You can disable the privilege in Settings > device > apps > Uber > permissions.

mortenjorck 10y ago

There's a simple way to send a message: Set the location services setting to "Never" and just enter addresses for now (copy and paste from Maps if it's easier). The important thing is that their analytics will pick this up, and if enough users do it, hopefully point toward re-enabling "While using."

walterbell 10y ago
Or don't accept this app update. If/when Uber stops the current app version (with 3 privacy settings) from working with their server API, switch from Uber to a competitor. Apple can also change their policy for ride-sharing apps, to force "While Using" as an option, or block Uber's update from the App Store. Remember that it was only after apps abused the contact database, that permissions were added by Apple to give users control over apps. Apple can step up now and define a new policy that responds to these new abuses of user choice, within the ride-sharing app category. This is one of the few benefits of Apple's walled garden review of apps. Perhaps we will eventually thank Uber for pushing the boundaries of etiquette, forcing Apple to regulate Uber and their peers.
- gchokov 10y ago
  How can you not accept the update, when they do not even write release notes?
  - walterbell 10y ago
    I've learned the hard way to time-delay app updates from over-reaching companies. A week or two is usually sufficient for major issues to surface on HN. You're right - it would be better if Apple allowed users to rollback to the N-1 version of an app. That would send a real-time signal from users to app vendors, rather than slow complaints via press and social media.
    - newscracker 10y ago
      > it would be better if Apple allowed users to rollback to the N-1 version of an app. Apple should allow users to revert to any older version. There are so many apps that become worse over time, and it's only after an update that the shortcomings are found, with no way to remedy the situation. But Apple really doesn't care about such things on the user experience front. I have provided Apple feedback on this before. The thing I like in this case is that iOS explicitly warns the user when an app requests for location services permission for use while the app is not running.

employee8000 10y ago

Uber employee here. We were told the reason to track up to 5 mins after the trip is for fraud, ex if a driver doesn't end the trip when she is supposed to. and to figure out where the pick up spots for each address are. A large building may have multiple points where people get picked up or dropped off and knowing those points would be very useful for the drivers and riders. And just as a side note, take it with a few grains of salt but I know it's not easy to just trust a company with such personal information, and certainly I wouldn't either, but Uber as a company is very ethical and takes the responsibility that we are entrusted with very seriously. There are a lot of things we do for our customers that isn't reported by the news, but we always try to do the right thing. Ex. When we had a few outages earlier this year, we made sure that the drivers who were active at the time were "made whole" by paying them for the time we were down. Yes, there were issues a few years ago with statements and actions that were done, but the Uber today and the employees that work here now take a lot of pride in what they do. I would never have worked here if I didn't feel Uber was an ethical company. And neither would my coworkers. There are thousands of engineers now working here and we would be the first ones who would stand up to management if we felt that something nefarious or even careless was being done with user's personal information. Many of the company values revolve around "toe stepping" and "principled confrontation" and this means even against our own management. So I know it's not easy to believe, and it's easy for me to say since I work here, but nothing nefarious is going on. If there was, we the engineers would be against it completely.

dimino 10y ago
> but Uber as a company is very ethical You've got to understand how directly this clashes with the media coverage re: driver rights.
- employee8000 10y ago
  Yes and as an employee looking from the inside out, I see how negative the press is, and before I joined Uber I was biased by the media coverage as well. But everything I've seen on the inside directly goes against the media coverage I've seen. Take it with a grain of salt obviously.

uiuiuop 10y ago

> why do they need to know where I'm at after I get dropped off? In China, there's a company that provides a free loyalty point program. The store signs up for it, and users download the app and can use it to collect points when a transaction is made at the store. The points can then be exchanged for discounts and other stuff. All of this is free. How they make money is by selling the user behavior data. One of the features is the app tracks where the user goes after a transaction is made, so stores can find patterns and possible ways to cross promote. For example, it might show a trend that 60% of customers will go to the movie theater after dining at your restaurant. Or will go to the Nike store after visiting yours, so perhaps you want to adjust your prices, etc.

swyman 10y ago
That's all well and good, but I'm turning off Uber's access to my GPS entirely.
- uiuiuop 10y ago
  Oh yeah, I don't like it either. Just saying this is another revenue stream for companies.

kriro 10y ago

I'm pretty sure in Germany it'll pretty much be "this is illegal as it tracks data at the individual level". Especially since there is no need for this to enable the core service.

hutattedonmyarm 10y ago

> I saw this earlier and had hopes that the update would just let me choose "While Using" in the app settings, like some other apps allow you even if they request access even while not using the app, but the settings only allow for "Always" or "Never" on iPhone. However, you can use Uber without allowing GPS, so it's not all or nothing. You can force quit the app after using it, so it doesn't get GPS access. "Always" only grants access while the app is open in the background (of foreground of course). Not pretty, but a workaround. > (as far as I know you only can see that some app is accessing your GPS currently, not which one(s) exactly Don't have my phone set to English, so wording might be slightly off. Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services. A purple arrow means the app used GPS "recently" (so a few minutes ago)

flexie 10y ago

Violation of privacy laws is one thing and bad enough in itself. But let's not forget that Uber violates various taxi laws as well. In Denmark, just now, the state prosecutor has formally prosecuted Uber for colluding to violate the taxi laws. So far, different Uber drivers have received fines and those fines have now been tried in appellate courts that upheld the fines. Now it's Uber's turn for its part in the violations. I am not a big fan of those taxi laws, but I am not a fan of billion dollar corporations just doing as they are pleased either. They seem to have no regard for laws.

sdoering 10y ago
Didn't the Uber execs exactly state this publicly - that they are willing to brake the laws that they see are hindering innovation and a disruption? I remember having read something like this but am unable to find it in my archives.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  Try this one: http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/technology/uber-drivers-operating-illegally-should-expect-fines-sa-government/news-story/3daa3668c7e3cb1335f4a0f22238d2f2 http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/technology/uber-driv...

gourou 10y ago

> I'm also curious how this will bump up against EU privacy laws Waze has location settings set to Always, so I guess they won't care again.

ninv 10y ago

"little intrusive" are very kind words. i would call it a brazen theft of privacy.