12 ms·

A Dose of a Hallucinogen from a ‘Magic Mushroom,’ and Then Lasting Peace

152 points by daegloe 10y ago

toodlebunions 10y ago
Interesting. I guess nobody had a bad trip?
- atom-morgan 10y ago
  From personal experience and from some other people I know, there are really no such things as bad trips. Only uncomfortable trips with often uncomfortable truths or revelations about the world and/or yourself. (Obviously I'm not counting extremes like dosing someone and throwing them into a haunted house. That would be a bad trip.)
  - pmoriarty 10y ago
    I'll confess to having trips that were like scenes out of a horror movie, including experiencing death. I'd categorize them as beyond "bad" to "nightmare" or torture trips. That said, I learned a lot from them. In fact, I'd say that I learned a lot more from my bad trips than from my good trips, and found the bad trips much more valuable and profound. They helped me face a lot of things I didn't want to acknowledge or didn't realize in my ordinary life. They were, as they say, years of therapy condensed in to hours. My bad trips also made me feel great respect for these substances, and made me very wary of casual use. I also believe you should always have an experienced sitter whom you like and trust. I can't find it now, but there's an interview with Erik Davis where he tells a story of how Terrence McKenna had turned someone on. Afterwards, that person screams at McKenna: "What did you do to me? How could you! It was so..." So McKenna asks him: "But would you do it again?" "Why? Because what does not kill you makes you stronger?" "No," McKenna replied, "It is what kills you that makes you stronger."
    - kilroy123 10y ago
      Yikes. Sounds like a painful way to learn things though.
    - colordrops 10y ago
      I will also personally confirm that nightmare torture death trips are possible. I've had one that was that bad, and it took years before I realized that I did learn some powerful things from the trip. I have never fully recovered, and it was almost 20 years ago. I don't think it was the best way to learn - abuse by a parent also teaches you things. edit: in the interest of not misrepresenting hallucinogens, I wanted to clarify a few things. First, this was on LSD, and not mushrooms. I have never had a bad trip on mushrooms, whereas I always felt more out of control on LSD. Also, I've tripped dozens of times, and every other trip was either very positive or at least could be laughed at afterward. And overall I've gained more than I've lost by a long shot. My main point is that hellish psychotic breaks are indeed possible, but not the norm. The one time I did experience this, I was not following the guidelines of experienced trippers, which is to make sure your set and setting are good. My (mind)set was horrible, taking several other drugs in the same evening, and the setting was a shitty vegas hotel. If you go in with a positive, respectful mindset, surrounded by supportive people in a good environment, the chances are almost nil that you will have a bad trip.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    Is your forearms turning into lava an uncomfortable truth? ;)
  - echlebek 10y ago
    Oh but there are! https://deadspin.com/5549389/mushroom-tea-murder-man-removes-friends-still-beating-heart https://deadspin.com/5549389/mushroom-tea-murder-man-removes...
  - corndoge 10y ago
    From personal experience, there are such things as bad trips. I recently had one of my friends -- a relatively experienced psychedelic user -- dive out of a window because he thought the world was going to end. Among other things this resulted in my friend barely escaping death by hemorrhage (I called emergency services, he was hospitalized), an uncomfortable police encounter, quite a few articles of clothing lost due to being soaked in blood, and some unsavory legal consequences for my friend. Not to mention a rather scarring mental experience for myself. Set was good, setting was good, substance was known good. I had absolutely no reason to suspect anything going wrong. But it did go wrong. Even if you know what you are doing and are experienced, it is always possible for bad things to happen. Getting cocky and saying there are no such things as bad trips is an invitation for trouble.
    - bioluminescent 10y ago
      How much did he take? It sounds like he took too much. Taking a sensible dose should not result in this.
      - thoughtpalette 10y ago
        Armchair anecdotes. Everyone can and will have a different experience. Even from "safe" doses.
      - corndoge 10y ago
        He had prior experience with the same substance at the same dosage. It was a little high but nothing unheard of, certainly not a heroic dose.
        bioluminescent 10y ago
        Pretty scary. It reminds me of the girl who went to Amsterdam on a school trip, took shrooms and jumped off a building, killing herself. It resulted in fresh shrooms being banned for sale there.
        10y ago
  - shlant 10y ago
    > there are really no such things as bad trips. Only uncomfortable trips with often uncomfortable truths or revelations about the world and/or yourself You can put it in whatever context you want, and for the most part I agree, but I myself have had what I would definitely describe as a "bad trip". It resulted in me having to deal with anxiety and panic attacks for the next 4+ years. I also personally know people who have had what could only be described as "bad trips" including one instance of police being called to the house and one instance of someone jumping out a window. I know it is important to take every experience as a learning opportunity, but there are some people who physiologically have bad reactions to hallucinogens and those who are susceptible to mental disorders. Saying that "there are really no such things as bad trips" is really downplaying how powerful these substances can be.
  - jamesblonde 10y ago
    I dropped one tab when i was 18. It took me a few years to get over it. Flashbacks daily for the first year, slept just a couple of hours a night, constantly on edge, scared I would get a flashback. A course of prozac 18 months later sorted me out - calmed me down enough to deal with it. It still took another 3 years before i felt comfortable enough to smoke a joint. It was the single stupidest thing i did in my whole life.
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    I once spent an evening talking a friend down from a really nasty spell of paranoid dissociation after she ate the recommended dose of a legally purchased pot cookie in Washington. I am in favor of legalization for many drugs, and bad trips can be minimized by attention to set, setting, dosage, and purity (I suspect quality control at my friend's bakery was shit and she got way too much of something or other). But the notion that bad trips are anti-drug propaganda and recreational drugs are perfectly safe is dangerous and hurts people.
    - throwaway7767 10y ago
      > I once spent an evening talking a friend down from a really nasty spell of paranoid dissociation after she ate the recommended dose of a legally purchased pot cookie in Washington. > I suspect quality control at my friend's bakery was shit and she got way too much of something or other The quality control may not have been to blame. I've smoked cannabis for many years, and know many people that do. I used to think as many do that these stories of mental breakdowns/freakouts were just anti-drug propaganda. Then one day a friend brought his coworker (whom I had never met) to visit. We smoked one joint between the three of us, it was not particularly strong. But the guy just went nuts. Talking nonsense that was obviously part of some paranoid thoughts he was having. Me and my friend spent the rest of the evening calming him down and by the end he had mostly returned to normal. It's clear to me this guy had some underlying psychological issues that were triggered by cannabis. But it only took a very small amount to trigger that episode. As my friend told me, he just stopped showing up for work after that and after a couple of months was let go. I don't know where he is today but I hope he recovered and realised that cannabis is something that he really should not touch again. But again, this is one person out of dozens of people I've smoked with over the years. It's uncommon, but can be quite serious for those afflicted.
      - dfraser992 10y ago
        Marijuana can be one heck of a psychedelic. For the most part it isn't because of how the typical person uses it, but if you know what you are doing... If the DEA actually understood drugs, they would have done everything possible to prevent marijuana from being deemed 'socially acceptable' (assuming I know "what the DEA thinks"). Medicalization has made it socially acceptable though, and it reflects the general social shift over the past 40 years. Enough 'pot cookie' stories and maybe society will start really wising up as to what we're dealing with.
  - kahrkunne 10y ago
    My uncle had a bad trip - he had to go into therapy for a year afterwards. This is why psychedelics are the only drugs I refuse to do under all circumstances, bad trips really do exist and they can fuck you up badly.
- krabpaaltje 10y ago
  It's becoming common to call these experiences 'difficult trip'. The idea is that there's always something to learn, even if it might not be pleasant. And to not scare people away with 'bad' nomenclature.
andrewthornton 10y ago
I would love to get a hold of the playlist that they mention.
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  If you are interested in this sort of thing, I'd strongly recommend "The Secret Chief Revealed",[1] which goes in to detail on the playlist selection for psychedelic therapy and many other related topics. It's a truly excellent book on the subject. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff/dp/0966001966/ https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff...
- chrisweekly 10y ago
  Speaking of playlists this sounds like a new mental state for brain.fm to support.
- chrisweekly 10y ago
  Speaking of playlists this sounds like a new mental state for brain.fm to support.
- spinoza1 10y ago
  It's probably the playlist from the book Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics and Religious Experiences. Spotify playlist can be found here: https://play.spotify.com/user/phillysblunt/playlist/5KWf8H2pM0tlVd7niMtqeU?play=true&utm_source=open.spotify.com&utm_medium=open https://play.spotify.com/user/phillysblunt/playlist/5KWf8H2p... or here http://www.cupblog.org/?p=18136 http://www.cupblog.org/?p=18136 But I don't know if this one, they have used something like this in other studies. edit: Since they mentioned Eno it' might be a different one but I don't know: https://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-to-pick-music-for-people-on-lsd-from-a-scientist-whose-job-that-is https://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-to-pick-music-for-peop... something like this and maybe there it can be found if you search what's related to this on reddit. J.H.U might be the sacred knowledge one. "N.Y.U. leaned toward New Age and world music — Brian Eno; sitars; didgeridoos. Johns Hopkins favored Western classical."
tlb 10y ago
How can one distinguish between these two descriptions of a drug's effect: 1. it brings psychological insights resulting in lasting peace 2. it permanently disables part of the brain responsible for fear and anxiety reactions Obviously one sounds good and one sounds bad, but I wonder what study you could perform to accept hypothesis 1 but reject hypothesis 2.
- Alex3917 10y ago
  > I wonder what study you could perform to accept hypothesis 1 but reject hypothesis 2. One test would be whether only fear relating to one's own death is eliminated, or whether all fear is eliminated. E.g. I wouldn't expect a mother to let her children play with knives or whatever. Also, the key mediating variable in terms of people achieving lasting peace is whether or not they have a mystical experience. And whether or not one has this qualitative experience is only loosely related to dosage, which to me makes it unlikely that some part of the brain is just getting biologically switched off or whatever.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- taneq 10y ago
  You can reject hypothesis 2 simply by seeing what percentage of people who've tried the drug have a permanently diminished fear or anxiety response. I don't know of any official figures but from anecdata, I'd say that they don't.
- firethief 10y ago
  2 would be a miracle drug; the penicillin of psychiatry. A lot of people have long-term problems with excessive fear and anxiety, and the drugs we do have to address these things on a neurochemical level are iffy in efficacy and side effects can range into the disturbing.
- TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
  Traditional antidepressents are like the friend who gives you a hug when you're feeling bad. It helps, but it's only designed to address how you're feeling. Psychedelics are more like the therapist who will help you realise why you feel that way, and allow you to look at things from a different perspective. When the immediate effect has worn off, antidepressents just return you to baseline, while psychedelics leave you with the memory of your experience and the ability to take that step back from yourself.
md224 10y ago
> Some medical professionals held the studies at arm’s length. Dr. William Breitbart, chairman of the psychiatry department at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, questioned this use of cancer patients. “Medical marijuana got its foot in the door by making the appeal that ‘cancer patients are suffering, they’re near death, so for compassionate purposes, let’s make it available,’ ” he said. “And then you’re able to extend this drug to other purposes.” I don't like this guy. And he's the chairman of the Psychiatry department at a major hospital.
- trprog 10y ago
  >I don't like this guy. Why?
  - md224 10y ago
    Because he's talking like he thinks the study is a scam to pave the way for legalization of psychedelics, and he does this by comparing it to the legalization of marijuana. This goes against my worldview for multiple reasons: 1) Psychedelic therapy is a promising treatment for mental health issues 2) Legalization of psychedelics might actually be a GOOD idea 3) The legalization of medical marijuana was a step in the RIGHT direction, toward the overdue legalization of marijuana This guy is skeptical of #1 and seems to believe the opposite of #2 and #3. So yeah, I don't like him, and I think his beliefs are misguided and harmful.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - coldtea 10y ago
    For one, he gives no scientific reason why those "other purposes" are bad.
    - hackermailman 10y ago
      The article blatantly edited out those reasons and rearranged his quotes to give this doctor an anti-psilocybin crusading slant. It worked, you immediately dislike him not knowing what his real concerns are, and were just given an out of context snippet. His concerns are already on record in medical journals (sadly mostly paywalled) about using Psilocybin on cancer patients http://www.ascopost.com/issues/may-10-2015/a-cautionary-note-on-psilocybin-therapy/ http://www.ascopost.com/issues/may-10-2015/a-cautionary-note... and it has to do with peer review. The comparison with medical marijuana is that they did not do reproduction or review on those studies and then the research was used to shove through legalized marijuana and he wants more research and review this time around before dosing patients with hallucinogens.
pmoriarty 10y ago
"Some medical professionals held the studies at arm’s length. Dr. William Breitbart, chairman of the psychiatry department at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, questioned this use of cancer patients. "Medical marijuana got its foot in the door by making the appeal that ‘cancer patients are suffering, they’re near death, so for compassionate purposes, let’s make it available,’ " he said. "And then you’re able to extend this drug to other purposes."" This is supposed to be a criticism? Sounds like an endorsement to me.
- TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
  Later in the same article, the same doctor said that it's impossible to show whether the psilocybin was responsible because they might have come through the depression anyway. I get the impression that this doctor is strongly anti-drugs, and is allowing his personal bias to cloud his professional judgment. The fact that he makes a living from the psychiatric treatment of cancer patients might go some way to explaining his bias, but also makes it all the less excusable.
  - josscrowcroft 10y ago
    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair
  - zeckalpha 10y ago
    Psychiatric treatment is drugs.
mads 10y ago
Where could I get hold of this?
- corndoge 10y ago
  Not HN
- WalterSear 10y ago
  The dark markets, if your social network is no help.
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  I really recommend you educate yourself thoroughly on these substances before diving in. Fortune favors the prepared mind.
- goatsi 10y ago
  Look into 4-aco-dmt, a prodrug of psilocybin (and suspected to have some activity on it's own) that is legal to purchase in most of the world. Googling "buy 4-aco-dmt" will give you a number of sites that will happily sell it to you after you promise that you are purchasing it for reasons other than human consumption. I would recommend the Canadian sites over the Chinese ones.
88e282102ae2e5b 10y ago
> Dr. Griffiths noted that patients received extensive support, which may have deepened and secured their life-affirming transformations. > “People will take psilocybin at a rave or at Burning Man” — the art and performance desert festival — “but the effect,” he said, “evaporates like water running through their hands.” It certainly doesn't hurt to have a trip sitter or to discuss the experience with someone understanding, but this is a completely unwarranted conclusion. It seems like Dr. Griffiths needs it to not have an effect outside of a clinical setting, which is just so unfortunate. I would rate doing mushrooms as one of the single most important decisions of my life.
- ImTalking 10y ago
  May I ask what has changed in you?
  - 88e282102ae2e5b 10y ago
    At the time I felt like I became noticeably smarter. That may have been the arrogance of a 20-year-old, but the perspective shift was so vast that I was forced to think about things in completely new ways (for years after the trip was over). It definitely made my thinking much less rigid, regardless. I also knew long beforehand that subjective experience is filtered by the brain, but having that fact forcibly shown to me was a whole other ballgame. I was also much calmer and more giving afterwards. I'm not sure why - maybe spending eight hours while super high and with a diminished ego makes you want to revisit that mindset. Long after the trip and even occasionally today, I still see patterns in trees that are very reminiscent of how they looked while tripping. This may be a bit silly, but it's a nice cautionary reminder that my brain is capable of imposing order where there is none. Superficially, I went from hating to loving electronic music, and felt euphoria for the first time.
    - ImTalking 10y ago
      Love hearing about experiences like this. We have no idea the power of the mind.
vlunkr 10y ago
Does anyone else feel like HN has a really silly optimism about psychedelic drugs? Like it's just a foregone conclusion that if you are dying of cancer the best thing you can do is take drugs?
- pstuart 10y ago
  No. What's silly is your argument. Drugs are a tool and it is very much a hacker thing to want to learn about these tools and how they can be best used. Any sort of "promotion" you're reacting to could also be construed of people who see value in these tools regardless of official public policy.
  - Jgrubb 10y ago
    I'm just saying - if you'd left out that first sentence you wouldn't be getting downvoted.
    - pstuart 10y ago
      Yeah, I know better but was too annoyed at the time.
- rednerrus 10y ago
  If it helps people to feel at peace that should be ok, right?
- razakel 10y ago
  >Does anyone else feel like HN has a really silly optimism about psychedelic drugs? Like it's just a foregone conclusion that if you are dying of cancer the best thing you can do is take drugs? I think it's silly to dismiss it out of hand. Remember that the founder of the most valuable company in the world literally said that taking LSD was one of the most important experiences of his life. 1960s counterculture played a role in the personal computer revolution. Psychedelic drugs were part of that. I would suggest you read What the Dormouse Said by John Markoff.
- midgetjones 10y ago
dmalvarado 10y ago
"Patients were randomly given a placebo or synthetic psilocybin, and not told which. " Hah. I bet they figured out which pill they got, pretty quickly.
- tonyarkles 10y ago
  Not just the patient... I bet everyone in the room knew who was given the control and who wasn't.
- beagle3 10y ago
  Obligatory xkcd https://xkcd.com/1462/ https://xkcd.com/1462/
drewblaisdell 10y ago
I've never taken hallucinogens before. I want to have a positive, meaningful experience with them. How do I do it?
- moonshinefe 10y ago
  Make sure you're in a situation that's safe, have a friend with you who is more sober. Make sure the environment around you is positive + you're in a good mood before you do it.
- notgood 10y ago
  Search for someone who has already taken them you trust the most, and ask where to find/buy (the same part they buy). Know what are you taking (as much as possible), read a lot about it on the internet, specially if you suffer from some chronic illness or are genetically predisposed to something (e.g. heart attacks). Only consume them surrounded by friend(s) in an known place, not with strangers, have water ready (maybe food too); if you have no friends around do the minimun dose at home (perhaps with music), have a medikit around if you are feeling paranoid about it. Fir time take only the minimum recommendation or so, try to have at least one friend around who will stay sober, don't take more if you don't feel anything; better to not combine with alcohol or other drugs.
- TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
  Take a look at the PsychedSubstance channel on Youtube - there's some great videos there to give you an idea of what to expect. Be sure that you're in a relaxed state of mind before you start. Ideally, be around people you trust and who won't cause you anxiety. If that's not possible and you want to try it alone for whatever reason, start small - half of a 100ug LSD tab is more than enough for a first trip alone. Don't be tempted to redose - the effects can take a good 3 hours to kick in, and can last upwards of 12 hours.
- delegate 10y ago
  > I want to have a positive, meaningful experience with them. How do I do it? You don't do it, it does you, when the time comes :). Surprisingly many people who've done psychedelics get this metaphor. This is due to the epiphany about the concept of time that is experienced by most people who have had a psychedelic trip. But anyway, when the time comes, if you want a positive and meaningful experience, make sure you choose a positive, meaningful and safe place to do it. At home, when alone (no parents/children/etc) is such a place. You need it clear for at least 48 hours, as you will want to spend a day integrating what you've just experienced. It's a good idea to have a trusted good friend who will stay sober during your trip, preferably someone who has tripped before - or he can smoke some pot. It's important that alcohol is not present - not in you or your trip sitter during the trip, as this will derail it in the wrong direction. After the effects have subsided, you can have a beer or a glass of wine to help you sleep. Prepare your place for the trip - make it beautiful, clean, have fruit, juices, water - you will go on a deep journey, so make sure you do it in style. The most important - make sure that the substance is pure and is what advertised. Get a drug testing kit and verify it if you have no trusted sources (eg. if you buy from a dark net market).
Jach 10y ago
So is a dose like 22 caps?
towb 10y ago
I just listened to a podcast that touched this topic, an interview with David Nutt, seems like he does similar research over in the UK. It's a Swedish podcast but not that much in this episode, the interview starts 14 minutes in: https://soundcloud.com/user-659943582/david-nutt-magic-mushrooms-lsd https://soundcloud.com/user-659943582/david-nutt-magic-mushr...
- proaralyst 10y ago
  For those who aren't aware, David Nutt used to be head of the UK Government's Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs until he pointed out that ecstacy was less dangerous than horse riding.
josscrowcroft 10y ago
What effect could four years of Trump presidency have on such research, trials and progress? Anybody have any comments or links to related resources? Thanks in advance.
zeckalpha 10y ago
Another datapoint for the Bayesian model? http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-up/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-u...
nightbrawler 10y ago
For some awesome insight into Magic Mushrooms, Hamilton's Pharmacopeia on Viceland had a great episode: https://www.viceland.com/en_us/video/magic-mushrooms-in-mexico/5824ee7c26bc7bcd771ba6c3 https://www.viceland.com/en_us/video/magic-mushrooms-in-mexi...
SolaceQuantum 10y ago
Hearing feel-good stories makes me wonder what would happen if a schizotypal (generally summarized as a "less severe schizophrenic") person such as myself could take them and still receive benefits. Maybe it will just be the final tip into a psychotic break. These stories often make me think that they are merely catered to people with either "acceptable" mental illness (depression, anxiety, etc) or people who have no mental illness. Anyone else may as well not exist in this worldview. On another note, I find it quite amusing to read the HN stories here of how their experiences went with psychadelics. The descriptions presented seem understandable to me and I feel I've experienced such things in my day-to-day existence. I'm not quite sure how they are profound, nor how they make someone more open-minded, intelligent, etc.
- mkoryak 10y ago
  Its really hard to write down "how" they are profound. I think the experiences typically transcend language.
  - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
    Yes, like I've said, I've been there in my day to day. My question is why they are profound. Maybe it's because others are capable of being distanced from it eventually. It's profound when you(general) don't have to stay "there", can "come back" and relate how open minded and intelligent and elightened one is now.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

152 points by daegloe 10y ago

toodlebunions 10y ago

Interesting. I guess nobody had a bad trip?

atom-morgan 10y ago
From personal experience and from some other people I know, there are really no such things as bad trips. Only uncomfortable trips with often uncomfortable truths or revelations about the world and/or yourself. (Obviously I'm not counting extremes like dosing someone and throwing them into a haunted house. That would be a bad trip.)
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  I'll confess to having trips that were like scenes out of a horror movie, including experiencing death. I'd categorize them as beyond "bad" to "nightmare" or torture trips. That said, I learned a lot from them. In fact, I'd say that I learned a lot more from my bad trips than from my good trips, and found the bad trips much more valuable and profound. They helped me face a lot of things I didn't want to acknowledge or didn't realize in my ordinary life. They were, as they say, years of therapy condensed in to hours. My bad trips also made me feel great respect for these substances, and made me very wary of casual use. I also believe you should always have an experienced sitter whom you like and trust. I can't find it now, but there's an interview with Erik Davis where he tells a story of how Terrence McKenna had turned someone on. Afterwards, that person screams at McKenna: "What did you do to me? How could you! It was so..." So McKenna asks him: "But would you do it again?" "Why? Because what does not kill you makes you stronger?" "No," McKenna replied, "It is what kills you that makes you stronger."
  - kilroy123 10y ago
    Yikes. Sounds like a painful way to learn things though.
  - colordrops 10y ago
    I will also personally confirm that nightmare torture death trips are possible. I've had one that was that bad, and it took years before I realized that I did learn some powerful things from the trip. I have never fully recovered, and it was almost 20 years ago. I don't think it was the best way to learn - abuse by a parent also teaches you things. edit: in the interest of not misrepresenting hallucinogens, I wanted to clarify a few things. First, this was on LSD, and not mushrooms. I have never had a bad trip on mushrooms, whereas I always felt more out of control on LSD. Also, I've tripped dozens of times, and every other trip was either very positive or at least could be laughed at afterward. And overall I've gained more than I've lost by a long shot. My main point is that hellish psychotic breaks are indeed possible, but not the norm. The one time I did experience this, I was not following the guidelines of experienced trippers, which is to make sure your set and setting are good. My (mind)set was horrible, taking several other drugs in the same evening, and the setting was a shitty vegas hotel. If you go in with a positive, respectful mindset, surrounded by supportive people in a good environment, the chances are almost nil that you will have a bad trip.
- mistermann 10y ago
  Is your forearms turning into lava an uncomfortable truth? ;)
- echlebek 10y ago
  Oh but there are! https://deadspin.com/5549389/mushroom-tea-murder-man-removes-friends-still-beating-heart https://deadspin.com/5549389/mushroom-tea-murder-man-removes...
- corndoge 10y ago
  From personal experience, there are such things as bad trips. I recently had one of my friends -- a relatively experienced psychedelic user -- dive out of a window because he thought the world was going to end. Among other things this resulted in my friend barely escaping death by hemorrhage (I called emergency services, he was hospitalized), an uncomfortable police encounter, quite a few articles of clothing lost due to being soaked in blood, and some unsavory legal consequences for my friend. Not to mention a rather scarring mental experience for myself. Set was good, setting was good, substance was known good. I had absolutely no reason to suspect anything going wrong. But it did go wrong. Even if you know what you are doing and are experienced, it is always possible for bad things to happen. Getting cocky and saying there are no such things as bad trips is an invitation for trouble.
  - bioluminescent 10y ago
    How much did he take? It sounds like he took too much. Taking a sensible dose should not result in this.
    - thoughtpalette 10y ago
      Armchair anecdotes. Everyone can and will have a different experience. Even from "safe" doses.
    - corndoge 10y ago
      He had prior experience with the same substance at the same dosage. It was a little high but nothing unheard of, certainly not a heroic dose.
      - bioluminescent 10y ago
        Pretty scary. It reminds me of the girl who went to Amsterdam on a school trip, took shrooms and jumped off a building, killing herself. It resulted in fresh shrooms being banned for sale there.
        10y ago
- shlant 10y ago
  > there are really no such things as bad trips. Only uncomfortable trips with often uncomfortable truths or revelations about the world and/or yourself You can put it in whatever context you want, and for the most part I agree, but I myself have had what I would definitely describe as a "bad trip". It resulted in me having to deal with anxiety and panic attacks for the next 4+ years. I also personally know people who have had what could only be described as "bad trips" including one instance of police being called to the house and one instance of someone jumping out a window. I know it is important to take every experience as a learning opportunity, but there are some people who physiologically have bad reactions to hallucinogens and those who are susceptible to mental disorders. Saying that "there are really no such things as bad trips" is really downplaying how powerful these substances can be.
- jamesblonde 10y ago
  I dropped one tab when i was 18. It took me a few years to get over it. Flashbacks daily for the first year, slept just a couple of hours a night, constantly on edge, scared I would get a flashback. A course of prozac 18 months later sorted me out - calmed me down enough to deal with it. It still took another 3 years before i felt comfortable enough to smoke a joint. It was the single stupidest thing i did in my whole life.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  I once spent an evening talking a friend down from a really nasty spell of paranoid dissociation after she ate the recommended dose of a legally purchased pot cookie in Washington. I am in favor of legalization for many drugs, and bad trips can be minimized by attention to set, setting, dosage, and purity (I suspect quality control at my friend's bakery was shit and she got way too much of something or other). But the notion that bad trips are anti-drug propaganda and recreational drugs are perfectly safe is dangerous and hurts people.
  - throwaway7767 10y ago
    > I once spent an evening talking a friend down from a really nasty spell of paranoid dissociation after she ate the recommended dose of a legally purchased pot cookie in Washington. > I suspect quality control at my friend's bakery was shit and she got way too much of something or other The quality control may not have been to blame. I've smoked cannabis for many years, and know many people that do. I used to think as many do that these stories of mental breakdowns/freakouts were just anti-drug propaganda. Then one day a friend brought his coworker (whom I had never met) to visit. We smoked one joint between the three of us, it was not particularly strong. But the guy just went nuts. Talking nonsense that was obviously part of some paranoid thoughts he was having. Me and my friend spent the rest of the evening calming him down and by the end he had mostly returned to normal. It's clear to me this guy had some underlying psychological issues that were triggered by cannabis. But it only took a very small amount to trigger that episode. As my friend told me, he just stopped showing up for work after that and after a couple of months was let go. I don't know where he is today but I hope he recovered and realised that cannabis is something that he really should not touch again. But again, this is one person out of dozens of people I've smoked with over the years. It's uncommon, but can be quite serious for those afflicted.
    - dfraser992 10y ago
      Marijuana can be one heck of a psychedelic. For the most part it isn't because of how the typical person uses it, but if you know what you are doing... If the DEA actually understood drugs, they would have done everything possible to prevent marijuana from being deemed 'socially acceptable' (assuming I know "what the DEA thinks"). Medicalization has made it socially acceptable though, and it reflects the general social shift over the past 40 years. Enough 'pot cookie' stories and maybe society will start really wising up as to what we're dealing with.
- kahrkunne 10y ago
  My uncle had a bad trip - he had to go into therapy for a year afterwards. This is why psychedelics are the only drugs I refuse to do under all circumstances, bad trips really do exist and they can fuck you up badly.
krabpaaltje 10y ago
It's becoming common to call these experiences 'difficult trip'. The idea is that there's always something to learn, even if it might not be pleasant. And to not scare people away with 'bad' nomenclature.

andrewthornton 10y ago

I would love to get a hold of the playlist that they mention.

pmoriarty 10y ago
If you are interested in this sort of thing, I'd strongly recommend "The Secret Chief Revealed",[1] which goes in to detail on the playlist selection for psychedelic therapy and many other related topics. It's a truly excellent book on the subject. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff/dp/0966001966/ https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff...
chrisweekly 10y ago
Speaking of playlists this sounds like a new mental state for brain.fm to support.
chrisweekly 10y ago
Speaking of playlists this sounds like a new mental state for brain.fm to support.
spinoza1 10y ago
It's probably the playlist from the book Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics and Religious Experiences. Spotify playlist can be found here: https://play.spotify.com/user/phillysblunt/playlist/5KWf8H2pM0tlVd7niMtqeU?play=true&utm_source=open.spotify.com&utm_medium=open https://play.spotify.com/user/phillysblunt/playlist/5KWf8H2p... or here http://www.cupblog.org/?p=18136 http://www.cupblog.org/?p=18136 But I don't know if this one, they have used something like this in other studies. edit: Since they mentioned Eno it' might be a different one but I don't know: https://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-to-pick-music-for-people-on-lsd-from-a-scientist-whose-job-that-is https://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-to-pick-music-for-peop... something like this and maybe there it can be found if you search what's related to this on reddit. J.H.U might be the sacred knowledge one. "N.Y.U. leaned toward New Age and world music — Brian Eno; sitars; didgeridoos. Johns Hopkins favored Western classical."

tlb 10y ago

How can one distinguish between these two descriptions of a drug's effect: 1. it brings psychological insights resulting in lasting peace 2. it permanently disables part of the brain responsible for fear and anxiety reactions Obviously one sounds good and one sounds bad, but I wonder what study you could perform to accept hypothesis 1 but reject hypothesis 2.

Alex3917 10y ago
> I wonder what study you could perform to accept hypothesis 1 but reject hypothesis 2. One test would be whether only fear relating to one's own death is eliminated, or whether all fear is eliminated. E.g. I wouldn't expect a mother to let her children play with knives or whatever. Also, the key mediating variable in terms of people achieving lasting peace is whether or not they have a mystical experience. And whether or not one has this qualitative experience is only loosely related to dosage, which to me makes it unlikely that some part of the brain is just getting biologically switched off or whatever.
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taneq 10y ago
You can reject hypothesis 2 simply by seeing what percentage of people who've tried the drug have a permanently diminished fear or anxiety response. I don't know of any official figures but from anecdata, I'd say that they don't.
firethief 10y ago
2 would be a miracle drug; the penicillin of psychiatry. A lot of people have long-term problems with excessive fear and anxiety, and the drugs we do have to address these things on a neurochemical level are iffy in efficacy and side effects can range into the disturbing.
TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
Traditional antidepressents are like the friend who gives you a hug when you're feeling bad. It helps, but it's only designed to address how you're feeling. Psychedelics are more like the therapist who will help you realise why you feel that way, and allow you to look at things from a different perspective. When the immediate effect has worn off, antidepressents just return you to baseline, while psychedelics leave you with the memory of your experience and the ability to take that step back from yourself.

md224 10y ago

> Some medical professionals held the studies at arm’s length. Dr. William Breitbart, chairman of the psychiatry department at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, questioned this use of cancer patients. “Medical marijuana got its foot in the door by making the appeal that ‘cancer patients are suffering, they’re near death, so for compassionate purposes, let’s make it available,’ ” he said. “And then you’re able to extend this drug to other purposes.” I don't like this guy. And he's the chairman of the Psychiatry department at a major hospital.

trprog 10y ago
>I don't like this guy. Why?
- md224 10y ago
  Because he's talking like he thinks the study is a scam to pave the way for legalization of psychedelics, and he does this by comparing it to the legalization of marijuana. This goes against my worldview for multiple reasons: 1) Psychedelic therapy is a promising treatment for mental health issues 2) Legalization of psychedelics might actually be a GOOD idea 3) The legalization of medical marijuana was a step in the RIGHT direction, toward the overdue legalization of marijuana This guy is skeptical of #1 and seems to believe the opposite of #2 and #3. So yeah, I don't like him, and I think his beliefs are misguided and harmful.
- deleted 10y ago
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- coldtea 10y ago
  For one, he gives no scientific reason why those "other purposes" are bad.
  - hackermailman 10y ago
    The article blatantly edited out those reasons and rearranged his quotes to give this doctor an anti-psilocybin crusading slant. It worked, you immediately dislike him not knowing what his real concerns are, and were just given an out of context snippet. His concerns are already on record in medical journals (sadly mostly paywalled) about using Psilocybin on cancer patients http://www.ascopost.com/issues/may-10-2015/a-cautionary-note-on-psilocybin-therapy/ http://www.ascopost.com/issues/may-10-2015/a-cautionary-note... and it has to do with peer review. The comparison with medical marijuana is that they did not do reproduction or review on those studies and then the research was used to shove through legalized marijuana and he wants more research and review this time around before dosing patients with hallucinogens.

pmoriarty 10y ago

"Some medical professionals held the studies at arm’s length. Dr. William Breitbart, chairman of the psychiatry department at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, questioned this use of cancer patients. "Medical marijuana got its foot in the door by making the appeal that ‘cancer patients are suffering, they’re near death, so for compassionate purposes, let’s make it available,’ " he said. "And then you’re able to extend this drug to other purposes."" This is supposed to be a criticism? Sounds like an endorsement to me.

TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
Later in the same article, the same doctor said that it's impossible to show whether the psilocybin was responsible because they might have come through the depression anyway. I get the impression that this doctor is strongly anti-drugs, and is allowing his personal bias to cloud his professional judgment. The fact that he makes a living from the psychiatric treatment of cancer patients might go some way to explaining his bias, but also makes it all the less excusable.
- josscrowcroft 10y ago
  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair
- zeckalpha 10y ago
  Psychiatric treatment is drugs.

mads 10y ago

Where could I get hold of this?

corndoge 10y ago
Not HN
WalterSear 10y ago
The dark markets, if your social network is no help.
pmoriarty 10y ago
I really recommend you educate yourself thoroughly on these substances before diving in. Fortune favors the prepared mind.
goatsi 10y ago
Look into 4-aco-dmt, a prodrug of psilocybin (and suspected to have some activity on it's own) that is legal to purchase in most of the world. Googling "buy 4-aco-dmt" will give you a number of sites that will happily sell it to you after you promise that you are purchasing it for reasons other than human consumption. I would recommend the Canadian sites over the Chinese ones.

88e282102ae2e5b 10y ago

> Dr. Griffiths noted that patients received extensive support, which may have deepened and secured their life-affirming transformations. > “People will take psilocybin at a rave or at Burning Man” — the art and performance desert festival — “but the effect,” he said, “evaporates like water running through their hands.” It certainly doesn't hurt to have a trip sitter or to discuss the experience with someone understanding, but this is a completely unwarranted conclusion. It seems like Dr. Griffiths needs it to not have an effect outside of a clinical setting, which is just so unfortunate. I would rate doing mushrooms as one of the single most important decisions of my life.

ImTalking 10y ago
May I ask what has changed in you?
- 88e282102ae2e5b 10y ago
  At the time I felt like I became noticeably smarter. That may have been the arrogance of a 20-year-old, but the perspective shift was so vast that I was forced to think about things in completely new ways (for years after the trip was over). It definitely made my thinking much less rigid, regardless. I also knew long beforehand that subjective experience is filtered by the brain, but having that fact forcibly shown to me was a whole other ballgame. I was also much calmer and more giving afterwards. I'm not sure why - maybe spending eight hours while super high and with a diminished ego makes you want to revisit that mindset. Long after the trip and even occasionally today, I still see patterns in trees that are very reminiscent of how they looked while tripping. This may be a bit silly, but it's a nice cautionary reminder that my brain is capable of imposing order where there is none. Superficially, I went from hating to loving electronic music, and felt euphoria for the first time.
  - ImTalking 10y ago
    Love hearing about experiences like this. We have no idea the power of the mind.

vlunkr 10y ago

Does anyone else feel like HN has a really silly optimism about psychedelic drugs? Like it's just a foregone conclusion that if you are dying of cancer the best thing you can do is take drugs?

pstuart 10y ago
No. What's silly is your argument. Drugs are a tool and it is very much a hacker thing to want to learn about these tools and how they can be best used. Any sort of "promotion" you're reacting to could also be construed of people who see value in these tools regardless of official public policy.
- Jgrubb 10y ago
  I'm just saying - if you'd left out that first sentence you wouldn't be getting downvoted.
  - pstuart 10y ago
    Yeah, I know better but was too annoyed at the time.
rednerrus 10y ago
If it helps people to feel at peace that should be ok, right?
razakel 10y ago
>Does anyone else feel like HN has a really silly optimism about psychedelic drugs? Like it's just a foregone conclusion that if you are dying of cancer the best thing you can do is take drugs? I think it's silly to dismiss it out of hand. Remember that the founder of the most valuable company in the world literally said that taking LSD was one of the most important experiences of his life. 1960s counterculture played a role in the personal computer revolution. Psychedelic drugs were part of that. I would suggest you read What the Dormouse Said by John Markoff.
midgetjones 10y ago

dmalvarado 10y ago

"Patients were randomly given a placebo or synthetic psilocybin, and not told which. " Hah. I bet they figured out which pill they got, pretty quickly.

tonyarkles 10y ago
Not just the patient... I bet everyone in the room knew who was given the control and who wasn't.
beagle3 10y ago
Obligatory xkcd https://xkcd.com/1462/ https://xkcd.com/1462/

drewblaisdell 10y ago

I've never taken hallucinogens before. I want to have a positive, meaningful experience with them. How do I do it?

moonshinefe 10y ago
Make sure you're in a situation that's safe, have a friend with you who is more sober. Make sure the environment around you is positive + you're in a good mood before you do it.
notgood 10y ago
Search for someone who has already taken them you trust the most, and ask where to find/buy (the same part they buy). Know what are you taking (as much as possible), read a lot about it on the internet, specially if you suffer from some chronic illness or are genetically predisposed to something (e.g. heart attacks). Only consume them surrounded by friend(s) in an known place, not with strangers, have water ready (maybe food too); if you have no friends around do the minimun dose at home (perhaps with music), have a medikit around if you are feeling paranoid about it. Fir time take only the minimum recommendation or so, try to have at least one friend around who will stay sober, don't take more if you don't feel anything; better to not combine with alcohol or other drugs.
TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
Take a look at the PsychedSubstance channel on Youtube - there's some great videos there to give you an idea of what to expect. Be sure that you're in a relaxed state of mind before you start. Ideally, be around people you trust and who won't cause you anxiety. If that's not possible and you want to try it alone for whatever reason, start small - half of a 100ug LSD tab is more than enough for a first trip alone. Don't be tempted to redose - the effects can take a good 3 hours to kick in, and can last upwards of 12 hours.
delegate 10y ago
> I want to have a positive, meaningful experience with them. How do I do it? You don't do it, it does you, when the time comes :). Surprisingly many people who've done psychedelics get this metaphor. This is due to the epiphany about the concept of time that is experienced by most people who have had a psychedelic trip. But anyway, when the time comes, if you want a positive and meaningful experience, make sure you choose a positive, meaningful and safe place to do it. At home, when alone (no parents/children/etc) is such a place. You need it clear for at least 48 hours, as you will want to spend a day integrating what you've just experienced. It's a good idea to have a trusted good friend who will stay sober during your trip, preferably someone who has tripped before - or he can smoke some pot. It's important that alcohol is not present - not in you or your trip sitter during the trip, as this will derail it in the wrong direction. After the effects have subsided, you can have a beer or a glass of wine to help you sleep. Prepare your place for the trip - make it beautiful, clean, have fruit, juices, water - you will go on a deep journey, so make sure you do it in style. The most important - make sure that the substance is pure and is what advertised. Get a drug testing kit and verify it if you have no trusted sources (eg. if you buy from a dark net market).

Jach 10y ago

So is a dose like 22 caps?

towb 10y ago

I just listened to a podcast that touched this topic, an interview with David Nutt, seems like he does similar research over in the UK. It's a Swedish podcast but not that much in this episode, the interview starts 14 minutes in: https://soundcloud.com/user-659943582/david-nutt-magic-mushrooms-lsd https://soundcloud.com/user-659943582/david-nutt-magic-mushr...

proaralyst 10y ago
For those who aren't aware, David Nutt used to be head of the UK Government's Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs until he pointed out that ecstacy was less dangerous than horse riding.

josscrowcroft 10y ago

What effect could four years of Trump presidency have on such research, trials and progress? Anybody have any comments or links to related resources? Thanks in advance.

zeckalpha 10y ago

Another datapoint for the Bayesian model? http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-up/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-u...

nightbrawler 10y ago

For some awesome insight into Magic Mushrooms, Hamilton's Pharmacopeia on Viceland had a great episode: https://www.viceland.com/en_us/video/magic-mushrooms-in-mexico/5824ee7c26bc7bcd771ba6c3 https://www.viceland.com/en_us/video/magic-mushrooms-in-mexi...

SolaceQuantum 10y ago

Hearing feel-good stories makes me wonder what would happen if a schizotypal (generally summarized as a "less severe schizophrenic") person such as myself could take them and still receive benefits. Maybe it will just be the final tip into a psychotic break. These stories often make me think that they are merely catered to people with either "acceptable" mental illness (depression, anxiety, etc) or people who have no mental illness. Anyone else may as well not exist in this worldview. On another note, I find it quite amusing to read the HN stories here of how their experiences went with psychadelics. The descriptions presented seem understandable to me and I feel I've experienced such things in my day-to-day existence. I'm not quite sure how they are profound, nor how they make someone more open-minded, intelligent, etc.

mkoryak 10y ago
Its really hard to write down "how" they are profound. I think the experiences typically transcend language.
- SolaceQuantum 10y ago
  Yes, like I've said, I've been there in my day to day. My question is why they are profound. Maybe it's because others are capable of being distanced from it eventually. It's profound when you(general) don't have to stay "there", can "come back" and relate how open minded and intelligent and elightened one is now.

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