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Dear Jeff Bezos: Is a suicide attempt enough, or do you still need more data?
- asddg123456 10y agoJeff doesn't give a shit
- stinkytaco 10y agoI suspect if there's bad press he will. This vaguely reminds me of their decision to install air conditioning in the warehouses after a high profile story about the conditions there.
- ekianjo 10y agojeff owns part of the press too.
- tanderson92 10y agoThis sounds like something an unwitting "useful idiot" of Putin would say. I'm tempted to tell PropOrNot about this. edit: since this has possibly been misunderstood, I am sarcastically drawing attention to the fact that Bezos' owning the Washington Post can decide to smear news other organizations as foreign propaganda, if they were to side against his interests on a story such as this.
- sagivo 10y agofunny how their spokesman saying that this person gets the best medical treatment now. how about preventative care?
- simonebrunozzi 10y agoThat's typical PR-speak. Ignore it.
- joeskyyy 10y agoAmazon benefits provide counseling services like most large companies do.
- jackmodern 10y agobe aggressive, be bold, crack the whip on your widgets, get promoted. I hate managers like that, it creates such a toxic miserable existence and creates horrible work life balance (albeit well paid probably).
- cbsmith 10y agoYou can be aggressive, be bold, crack the whip on your widgets, and get promoted without creating a toxic and miserable existence or horrible work life balance. Those are choices you make.
- sean_patel 10y ago> or do you still need more data? Jeff doesn't need more data. He already has all of it. The data tells him that this is collateral damage. It's the cost of doing business the way his customers (you, me and others reading this) expect instant gratification, free-everything and such with brutal speed and efficiency. Your question should be > do amazon customers really "need" free shipping, same day / same hour delivery (and other things that make them work their warehouse employees to death).
- gfody 10y agoI'm sure if some small percentage of your employees aren't literally killing themselves from stress then you're not upholding your fiduciary duty to the shareholders.
- inimino 10y agoBy Poe's Law, you might need to call out the sarcasm for some readers here.
- rubyn00bie 10y agoYou absolutely do not need to have a horrible work environment to have a high performing team and company. There is zero correlation, even less causation to your claim. This is apathy by management and it has now given way to cruelty (by the sounds of it). Do not spread these excuses as fact and certainly do not accept them when you hear them.
- sean_patel 10y agoNope. The efficiencies you've grown to expect from Amazon comes at a cost. And when Humans are involved in that cost, sometimes there is also a human cost. See Life in an Amazon Warehouse: Fear and Efficiency at 35 Orders Per Second => http://gizmodo.com/5982811/life-in-an-amazon-warehouse-fear-and-efficiency-at-35-orders-per-second http://gizmodo.com/5982811/life-in-an-amazon-warehouse-fear-...
- 10y ago
- krisroadruck 10y agoProbably not a popular opinion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself. In a company as large as amazon you are going to have the full gamut of the human spectrum working for you. It IS possible that person who is a bad employee, and person who would commit suicide at work can occupy the same body. Franky, this linked letter shares a lot of that same bizarreness. He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave and said he wish he had the courage to do that. If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job? If you are a good employee then getting another job shouldn't be that difficult. If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault. I'm not saying that amazon is not potentially a shitty place to work at. But this whole employee attempts to commit suicide, that'll show em attitude is just plain wrong headed.
- treehau5 10y agoYour expectations are correct. This is just a horribly, inhumane comment on every level. It's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!"
- mikestew 10y agoIt's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!" What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible?
- devy 10y ago> What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible? It's VERY WRONG to attempt to end one's life in order to exit the toxic work/relationship/marriage, like the unnamed Amazon employee did.
- jaredsohn 10y agoExiting the current situation would mean separation/divorce, not ending one's life.
- GotURsolution3 10y agoJeff is already hard at work on the problem: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/05/amazon-robotics-competition-dutch-team-first-prize https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/05/amazon-ro...
- stinkytaco 10y agoI suspect this was posted in jest, but why is that such a bad long term solution? Should we work simply to do work, or if we can work a robot harder, why not do that? Wouldn't that be better than working humans harder in the long run? This obviously does not absolve anyone for lacking empathy for other humans, but it isn't a bad solution for humanity in general.
- michaelchisari 10y agoIt's a great solution, if we are prepared to handle it as a society. I'm not convinced we are yet.
- amelius 10y agoIt is bad for humanity if only few (in this case Bezos) can reap the benefits of hundreds of years of progress, while a large part of the population is losing their job because of it. And it is still bad for humanity, even if you could argue that a lot of people temporarily pay a lower price for their goods ordered at Amazon. This price may soon go up because of a total monopoly gained by exploiting technology this way. And of course, this all is not because Bezos is so smart, but because capitalism is so flawed.
- stinkytaco 10y agoBy all accounts, Amazon is a hard place to work. It sounds like it's demanding, difficult and puts employees under a constant microscope that cannot help but increase stress. Given the track record, it probably surprises none of us to read these stories. And I'm really wondering if I should type this, but I also wonder about isolated stories like these. Given the number of employees, some are bound to be very sick people, regardless of working conditions. Some are also bound to be entitled, unrealistic or otherwise simply willing to take advantage of a story like this to criticize an employer they felt wronged them. I have worked with more than one person who was willing to resort to self-harm as a manipulative technique, which is a horrible and unfair thing to deal with. I just wish I could read articles like this and say unequivocally that I know Amazon is the problem. I have no facts in this case, so I can only hope that the person who attempted suicide yesterday gets the help he needs, from within Amazon or outside of it. EDIT: I have suffered from mental illness myself and as a vet, I know work related stress quite intimately (though I have never had PTSD myself, people who I worked with still deal with it and it is very real). So I don't want to dismiss that this occurs and is real. But we also have large, aggregate numbers, which we never get from private sector companies. All we get are anecdotes, each of which could easily be explained away. And perhaps that's part of the problem. Should private companies have to provide concrete data on workplace health issues like this? We regulate workplace safety, why not mental health?
- amzn-sde 10y ago> By all accounts, Amazon is a hard place to work. It sounds like it's demanding, difficult and puts employees under a constant microscope that cannot help but increase stress. Given the track record, it probably surprises none of us to read these stories. It most certainly is and not everyone is cut out for the amount of pressure and stress put on engineers. This is the truth of the matter. Some crumble by walking away to other jobs and other venues, others crumble by sadly things far worse like the events that unfolded yesterday. Personally I look around and realize I work with people capable of working at the other big tech companies, I work with people from all the big brand name schools. I work with a remarkable group of individuals (business and engineers). There is a constant pressure to succeed and out perform your peers. I tell me wife at times that sometimes I want to go back to working at a sub shop for minimum wage like I did in college because all I do now is pad Amazon's bottom line. I help amazon grow their revenue and make stock holders rich. Sure they pay well, sure they give out stock too and so the grass isn't always greener. I remind myself though that I work with the greatest of great in our industry and we all want to excel so it is a constant competition. I also accepted that if I am not cut out for it I will leave. Until that day I need to have the mental stability and fortitude to manage and cope with the stress and pressure. What is most sad though is the few negative cries outweigh the multitude of positive. I work with an amazing team, we have normal hours, our on-call is normal and some weeks I never get paged and we even take time off around the holidays because our team and team's leadership has our shit together.
- saosebastiao 10y agoJust thought I would share this site[0] with the caveat that these stories are anecdotes from people who obviously hate amazon so there might be some bias. I, as a former amazonian, can at the very least identify with a lot of what is said there (as well as some of the good things said elsewhere), and most of it doesn't look out of the ordinary, especially so if you're on the wrong team with the wrong manager. My story: My doctor told me to quit. After an anxiety attack and stress induced kidney stones, he told me that my paycheck was not worth the damage to my health. I stayed on long enough to collect my next stock vesting and then bombed out. I even refused their gag bribery on the way out. Fuck that place. https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/ https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/
- nickeleres 10y agohow do i downvote this?
- pg_is_a_butt 10y agobe jeff bezos
- notyourwork 10y agoAll I took from this was: - she was upset about something (maybe somethings) work related - she talked to her mom and professionals about her issues (even worked with HR and support within Amazon) - she didn't get along with her manager - she was suicidal but too scared to follow through It sounds like there was a bad chemistry or dynamic between employee and manager. Beyond that this article is a drama piece that doesn't explain anything concrete that actually happened to make her feel this way. I want to sympathize with her but I am really having trouble. edit: Tried to improve formatting. Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I am rejecting the conclusions she is trying to make. I sure would appreciate a real series of events to decide for myself whether she was or wasn't in a hostile environment.
- inimino 10y agoBy publishing it as an open letter, we get to see the emotion and it brings pressure on the CEO and the company to respond. She doesn't need to share the details of what specifically happened, and indeed she probably should not. Company outsiders aren't in a position to judge what happened anyway.
- mmanfrin 10y agoNow I’m writing you again because someone braver than I did something I couldn’t bring myself to do. Are you kidding me. Attempting suicide because of your job in a job market that is pretty fertile is not fucking brave.
- user5994461 10y agoUntil you realize the kind of interviews you'd have to endure to get another job in that market /s
- cbsmith 10y agoHuh? We're talking about brave here. Bravery would imply getting through whatever challenges lay ahead.
- cbsmith 10y agoI think that line could fairly be called a bit of poetic license.
- btilly 10y agoAmazon is a fascinating company. You are told in the interview to read https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles and prepared to be interviewed for how well you fit that. You are so interviewed. Once you're hired, you are constantly judged for fit to those principles. If people truly follow those principles, no defensive behavior is possible. Which makes the company free to institute policies and procedures that will work extremely well as long as everyone consistently follows those principles. Then they fill the organization with real people. And there is no shortage of defensive behaviors that people then pretend not to have so that they can measure up to those principles. As a whole, this works out well enough that Amazon is very successful as a company. For any individual employee it can work well until you or someone in a position to affect you crumbles under the pressure. I'll never forget the experience of working there. And I'm glad that I don't any more.
- jimmywanger 10y agoOverwrought prose by somebody with mental health issues. Also, the lack of an internal locus of control, which I find reprehensible. If you're in trouble, go find help. If you can't find help, well, you better make the best of being in trouble. Aside from family and friends, nobody cares much about you, and nobody should. A company is not responsible for your physical or mental well being. It provides resources that might help you overcome your difficulties. If you can't take advantage of these resources, they're not going to spoon feed you. They have better things to do with their time. From the article "because I wonder how many times this unnamed victim reached out to HR". More baseless hypotheticals. Amazon employs over 20k people. It's fundamentally a profit making machine, not a day-care for fragile little snowflakes. And the author of this article finally quit right? Isn't the author glad that he lacked the courage to kill himself and found the courage to quit?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- maverick_iceman 10y agoWhile I don't support Amazon's poor treatment of their employees some perspective is needed. The only reason this is news is because they are a software company. In any other business worse treatments are par for the course, even among Fortune 500 companies.
- adrianggg 10y agoAll tech jobs are hard. Mental health is complex but a theme here is that terrible managers can wield unhealthy power over powerless employees without any recourse. I worked there, I saw nice normal hard working people screwed over by terrible managers. Maybe that's life. Maybe there's a problem where that can be improved. Depends on which side of the fence you're on.
- chiefalchemist 10y agoDifferent people react to different situations in different ways. Regardless of her metal facilities Amazon should look to develop people, not put them in a position to fail, let alone commit suicide. Amazon didn't just fail the employee, it failed itself and it's shareholders.
- chiefalchemist 10y agoDifferent people react to different situations in different ways. Regardless of her metal facilities Amazon should look to develop people, not put them in a position to fail, let alone commit suicide. Amazon didn't just fail the employee, it failed itself and it's shareholders. The were options here, with better outcomes for all.
- lamontcg 10y agoThis company so isn't worth destroying your life over. If you start feeling this way, you really need to stop caring about it. Just show up, do your work. Nod politely when they put you on a PIP and start focusing your effort on finding a new job. Literally allow yourself to start doing a bad job so that you can free up enough mental energy to go find a new one.