6 ms·

This was what I wanted to know coming over to the comments. This is really interesting to hear. I'm always curious when I see these websites if these tools are

by hmhrex 10y ago

This was what I wanted to know coming over to the comments. This is really interesting to hear. I'm always curious when I see these websites if these tools are created by well-intentioned people that don't know the industry, or actual workers in that industry. I'll have to send this a long to my farmer friends.

tjic 10y ago
This is an example of a site I hate: http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ They've re-invented the tractor and 3-point / PTO implements, but they've done so very VERY poorly, there are no instructions, everything is hand-wavy, etc. It's condescending bullshit by "designers" who want to help third worlders with no realization that the best approach for an actual third worlder is to buy a used / discount version of the commercially available product. For example, their cement mixer design is 25% done (whatever that means), and is going to cost about $1,000 in parts alone, or $1,800 in parts and labor. Here's one that attaches to a tractor for $900 http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200660639_200660639 http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200660639_200... and you can find similar items even cheaper on Alibaba. A lot of these "let's help people farm!" websites are made by people who don't know anything about anything but seem to be compelled to do something so that they're "helping".
- douche 10y ago
  It's not like there aren't huge amounts of second-hand farm equipment that already exists, either. My dad is still running a John Deere M tractor from at least the early 50s, and all of the implements that we hook onto it are at least of that vintage (manure spreader, mowing machine, plow, harrows, potato hiller, potato digger, etc). Farming equipment was built ruggedly in those days, and it was simple enough that you can keep fixing and patching and welding it up almost indefinitely. A lot of times, people will even pay you to haul that kind of stuff off for them, if they don't know what they have.
  - jff 10y ago
    > Farming equipment was built ruggedly in those days, and it was simple enough that you can keep fixing and patching and welding it up almost indefinitely. Interesting thing about the little old tractors, they were generally just the engine & transmission, with a seat stuck on top of the transmission and wheels attached. No real body or frame to speak of, it was all drivetrain. See this pic for an example: https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/gf0311/gf0311-103923/images/gf0311-103923_1@2x.jpg https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/gf0311/gf0311-103923/images/...
    - AstroJetson 10y ago
      Yep, my favorite bike is this one http://www.bikemenu.com/Jesse%20James%20Peterbilt%20Discovery%20Channel%20Monster%20Garage.html http://www.bikemenu.com/Jesse%20James%20Peterbilt%20Discover... He sits on the transmission. I grew up on a farm in the 60's, before the era of AC and GPS controlled tractors. Most everything was fixable on the farm with a pretty minimal tool chest
      - vram22 10y ago
        What's meant by "GPS controlled tractors"? I know what GPS is but not clear how it is used in tractors; similar to how it's used in cars?
        randomdata 10y ago
        As far as tractors go, the primary function is localization for automatic steering and other function automation (raising an implement on the headlands, for instance), and, especially in older systems, simply being aware of where you have already crossed the field. Once you attach an implement, then there are all kinds of other functions that it may be used for, like variable rate application. In harvesting applications, there are systems where the combine can take over control of the grain cart tractor while unloading on the go to make sure it stays in the right spot, again localized via GPS. The combine itself will also map the crop yields by its location, and of course automatic steering like the tractors have. With RTK these tractors can achieve centimetre accuracy and repeatability which opens the door for all kinds of possibilities.
- narrator 10y ago
  Cheap stuff from China has done quite a bit to help the world develop. How they produce and export for less than the cost of raw materials in the west is, IMHO, one of the great mysteries of economics.
  - ben_jones 10y ago
    1) low wages 2) no environmental regulations 3) governmental policies
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      4) economies of scale 5) lower costs of living relative to the west 6) less barriers to entry and less middlemen sucking out money
      - exhilaration 10y ago
        7) Government subsidies [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/13/eu-to-investigate-chinese-steel-subsidies-blamed-for-dumping https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/13/eu-to-inves...
        abakker 10y ago
        8) markup and living wage being paid by the supplier of the US raw materials. 9) government regulation governing the contents of those raw materials e.g. Prop 65.
      - shagie 10y ago
        4.5) Central planning for various industries to reduce logistics costs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myf_bJv20NE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myf_bJv20NE touches on it (26 minutes in). That you can order a chip you need... and its made a few blocks away. Detroit (and the midwest auto industry) used to be like this - where whatever you needed was fairly close already. Not so much anymore. I'd have to dig up the cost difference in a slack (I asked about it), but IIRC, the majority of the price difference was not the difference in the cost of labor on a $30 item, but that at the scale things are being made the logistics isn't as expensive (you can buy 1000 chips and get them in a day or so rather than needing to buy 10,000 chips and needing for them to be shipped from 1000 miles away that will get here next week).
- 4rtemis 10y ago
  I think there are a lot of things they did incorrectly with OSE, but I like the premise of maintainable self-built open hardware. There's simply not enough open hardware. I don't think it's practical to build it for the third world, at least not now. Paying a bunch of engineers, farmers, designers etc, that would otherwise be working on farm equipment to design farm equipment blueprints in and open way is an amazing idea. Do they have to be in the field, in a hut they built themselves talking about grand moonshots like changing the world economy or developing lives for the third world. Absolutely not. I agree with you that this seems like developers thinking they know better how to fix the world than those working in it. So yeah, OpenHardware is cool and it should exist, but it's not going to replace commercial endeavors anytime soon and it's not practical for anything but a hobby today. There's no reason we can't have the Linux conjugate bulldozer option at some point in the future though.
  - tjic 10y ago
    +1, if only for the phrase "Linux conjugate bulldozer". ...which I would ABSOLUTELY build, if there were plans. OBTW, tangential, but if this kind of thing gets you excited, check out this guy (Doug Jackson, aka "SV Seeker"), building a 70 foot long steel boat in his backyard. https://www.youtube.com/user/submarineboat/playlists https://www.youtube.com/user/submarineboat/playlists
  - mlinksva 10y ago
    A shortcut could be to force commercial endeavors to provide Open Hardware through regulation. Not going to happen overnight either, but talking up in policy discourse seems like a better option than talking up in a hut.
    - 4rtemis 10y ago
      It used to be, a company wouldn't buy a machine without the spec booklet, the development manual and the in depth machine build information. Hardware producers were not hardware repair shops, you went elsewhere or contracted in house to fix something. As things got more complicated, proprietary and developed for relatively poorer end-users that's no longer the case. Now trying to fix something yourself or contracting out can get you fined or worse. Maybe regulation would fix this, but it doesn't seem most consumers care for it anyway. Fixing things yourself today is hindered by regulation more than it's helped.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- hydrogen18 10y ago
  What you've essentially discovered is the difference between someone's hobby and trying to support yourself by doing something. People who do this sort of thing as a hobby just want to feel good and are looking for distractions. A tractor that takes 600 hours to complete and requires extensive access to manufacturing equipment and the knowledge to use it? Great! Think about how much fun I'll have creating blue prints and what not! Meanwhile if I just needed an actual tractor, there is one rusting in someone's field I can grab off craigslist. It's twice my age but with some basic tools it will run again and will continue to work until long after my death. It isn't just "farming" (more like gardening for most of these people) that this suffers. It's always cool to see someone's "make your own XYZ for your motorcycle" video on YouTube. But then you realize they just used a turret mill and a metal lathe to make a part you can buy for $100 on Amazon. Just the tooling they used costs over $100. And oh yeah, the part just has to be waited on for Amazon to ship it to me with free shipping via prime. I build stuff in my free time, but I don't pretend it's cost effective or even a good use of my time. It's just a way to pass the time.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    You have a good point re needing a working tractor. However on the GP's "just by it from AliBaba" I'd really be surprised if such items would last long enough to become the "rusted one in a field" at a later date; I'd expect the "expensive" home made one might be that long lasting though.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      It depends on the item. China is known for low quality goods because companies outsource to China to save money. They are telling the companies in China to make cheap crap. The manufacturers are perfectly capable and more than happy to make high quality items, it just isn't requested of them very often. It is always "use the thinnest possible" not "make it twice as thick as it really needs to be".
  - abakker 10y ago
    My friend and I call this the "my uncle's machine shop" phenomenon after the seemingly endless forum posts about cars, desert racing, mountain bikes, woodworking etc where someone says something like, "I didn't have the part handy, so I drove over to my Uncle's machine shop and we milled it out of a 6x6x6 inch cube of billet aluminum he had lying around. Then we anodized it, and used it to fix our broken plastic xyz part." I have consciously spent tens of thousands of dollars on tools to be more capable of building things for myself (bad Return on cash). But some of the stuff these people make and have access to astounds me.
- disposablezero 10y ago
  They're SJH: Social Justice Hackers; minus the social, the justice or the hacking. If that SJH TED guy actually depended on an ag livelihood which necessitated functioning equipment, maybe they'd been able to dogfood workable designs to be almost as good as commercial products, or at least not as terrible as solar roadways. Instead, they have a wiki for a Moller, which will stay unrealized... forever.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  Everyone in this subthread is missing the point of open source industrial equipment. The point is not to get a cheap tractor, or even a good one. The point is not to have a tractor you can service. The point is to have a shared platform. If you buy a random used tractor and mod it, and I buy a different one, the probability that your mod is compatible with my tractor is low. If I am just as skilled as you at designing and fabricating parts, maybe that's ok.... I can just adapt your plans to my machine. With open source hardware, though, you can be a skilled machine designer, release detailed plans, and then a less skilled designer can come along, follow your fabrication instructions, and have a chance that your mod will work on their hardware. Open sourcing the plans is essentially providing an standard API for the machine. If you are satisfied that the existing market for farm equipment gives you an optimally efficient process already, then this is of no benefit to you. If you are a tinkerer and would like to build off a community of tinkerers to design new workflows for your operation, you might find an open source hardware project valuable.
randomdata 10y ago
> I'm always curious when I see these websites if these tools are created by well-intentioned people that don't know the industry, or actual workers in that industry. For what it is worth, as a farmer myself, I'm under the impression that a lot of these projects were created for someone's garden/backyard project, not a farm. That doesn't diminish their utility in that application, but the usefulness may not translate to farm-scale. But it's always fun to see what other people are doing, even if it isn't necessarily useful on my own farm. I wish discovery was a little better though. The site makes it difficult to segment the tools that are designed for the garden and those that would fit in on a larger farm.

by hmhrex 10y ago

tjic 10y ago

This is an example of a site I hate: http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ They've re-invented the tractor and 3-point / PTO implements, but they've done so very VERY poorly, there are no instructions, everything is hand-wavy, etc. It's condescending bullshit by "designers" who want to help third worlders with no realization that the best approach for an actual third worlder is to buy a used / discount version of the commercially available product. For example, their cement mixer design is 25% done (whatever that means), and is going to cost about $1,000 in parts alone, or $1,800 in parts and labor. Here's one that attaches to a tractor for $900 http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200660639_200660639 http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200660639_200... and you can find similar items even cheaper on Alibaba. A lot of these "let's help people farm!" websites are made by people who don't know anything about anything but seem to be compelled to do something so that they're "helping".

douche 10y ago
It's not like there aren't huge amounts of second-hand farm equipment that already exists, either. My dad is still running a John Deere M tractor from at least the early 50s, and all of the implements that we hook onto it are at least of that vintage (manure spreader, mowing machine, plow, harrows, potato hiller, potato digger, etc). Farming equipment was built ruggedly in those days, and it was simple enough that you can keep fixing and patching and welding it up almost indefinitely. A lot of times, people will even pay you to haul that kind of stuff off for them, if they don't know what they have.
- jff 10y ago
  > Farming equipment was built ruggedly in those days, and it was simple enough that you can keep fixing and patching and welding it up almost indefinitely. Interesting thing about the little old tractors, they were generally just the engine & transmission, with a seat stuck on top of the transmission and wheels attached. No real body or frame to speak of, it was all drivetrain. See this pic for an example: https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/gf0311/gf0311-103923/images/gf0311-103923_1@2x.jpg https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/gf0311/gf0311-103923/images/...
  - AstroJetson 10y ago
    Yep, my favorite bike is this one http://www.bikemenu.com/Jesse%20James%20Peterbilt%20Discovery%20Channel%20Monster%20Garage.html http://www.bikemenu.com/Jesse%20James%20Peterbilt%20Discover... He sits on the transmission. I grew up on a farm in the 60's, before the era of AC and GPS controlled tractors. Most everything was fixable on the farm with a pretty minimal tool chest
    - vram22 10y ago
      What's meant by "GPS controlled tractors"? I know what GPS is but not clear how it is used in tractors; similar to how it's used in cars?
      - randomdata 10y ago
        As far as tractors go, the primary function is localization for automatic steering and other function automation (raising an implement on the headlands, for instance), and, especially in older systems, simply being aware of where you have already crossed the field. Once you attach an implement, then there are all kinds of other functions that it may be used for, like variable rate application. In harvesting applications, there are systems where the combine can take over control of the grain cart tractor while unloading on the go to make sure it stays in the right spot, again localized via GPS. The combine itself will also map the crop yields by its location, and of course automatic steering like the tractors have. With RTK these tractors can achieve centimetre accuracy and repeatability which opens the door for all kinds of possibilities.
narrator 10y ago
Cheap stuff from China has done quite a bit to help the world develop. How they produce and export for less than the cost of raw materials in the west is, IMHO, one of the great mysteries of economics.
- ben_jones 10y ago
  1) low wages 2) no environmental regulations 3) governmental policies
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    4) economies of scale 5) lower costs of living relative to the west 6) less barriers to entry and less middlemen sucking out money
    - exhilaration 10y ago
      7) Government subsidies [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/13/eu-to-investigate-chinese-steel-subsidies-blamed-for-dumping https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/13/eu-to-inves...
      - abakker 10y ago
        8) markup and living wage being paid by the supplier of the US raw materials. 9) government regulation governing the contents of those raw materials e.g. Prop 65.
    - shagie 10y ago
      4.5) Central planning for various industries to reduce logistics costs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myf_bJv20NE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myf_bJv20NE touches on it (26 minutes in). That you can order a chip you need... and its made a few blocks away. Detroit (and the midwest auto industry) used to be like this - where whatever you needed was fairly close already. Not so much anymore. I'd have to dig up the cost difference in a slack (I asked about it), but IIRC, the majority of the price difference was not the difference in the cost of labor on a $30 item, but that at the scale things are being made the logistics isn't as expensive (you can buy 1000 chips and get them in a day or so rather than needing to buy 10,000 chips and needing for them to be shipped from 1000 miles away that will get here next week).
4rtemis 10y ago
I think there are a lot of things they did incorrectly with OSE, but I like the premise of maintainable self-built open hardware. There's simply not enough open hardware. I don't think it's practical to build it for the third world, at least not now. Paying a bunch of engineers, farmers, designers etc, that would otherwise be working on farm equipment to design farm equipment blueprints in and open way is an amazing idea. Do they have to be in the field, in a hut they built themselves talking about grand moonshots like changing the world economy or developing lives for the third world. Absolutely not. I agree with you that this seems like developers thinking they know better how to fix the world than those working in it. So yeah, OpenHardware is cool and it should exist, but it's not going to replace commercial endeavors anytime soon and it's not practical for anything but a hobby today. There's no reason we can't have the Linux conjugate bulldozer option at some point in the future though.
- tjic 10y ago
  +1, if only for the phrase "Linux conjugate bulldozer". ...which I would ABSOLUTELY build, if there were plans. OBTW, tangential, but if this kind of thing gets you excited, check out this guy (Doug Jackson, aka "SV Seeker"), building a 70 foot long steel boat in his backyard. https://www.youtube.com/user/submarineboat/playlists https://www.youtube.com/user/submarineboat/playlists
- mlinksva 10y ago
  A shortcut could be to force commercial endeavors to provide Open Hardware through regulation. Not going to happen overnight either, but talking up in policy discourse seems like a better option than talking up in a hut.
  - 4rtemis 10y ago
    It used to be, a company wouldn't buy a machine without the spec booklet, the development manual and the in depth machine build information. Hardware producers were not hardware repair shops, you went elsewhere or contracted in house to fix something. As things got more complicated, proprietary and developed for relatively poorer end-users that's no longer the case. Now trying to fix something yourself or contracting out can get you fined or worse. Maybe regulation would fix this, but it doesn't seem most consumers care for it anyway. Fixing things yourself today is hindered by regulation more than it's helped.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hydrogen18 10y ago
What you've essentially discovered is the difference between someone's hobby and trying to support yourself by doing something. People who do this sort of thing as a hobby just want to feel good and are looking for distractions. A tractor that takes 600 hours to complete and requires extensive access to manufacturing equipment and the knowledge to use it? Great! Think about how much fun I'll have creating blue prints and what not! Meanwhile if I just needed an actual tractor, there is one rusting in someone's field I can grab off craigslist. It's twice my age but with some basic tools it will run again and will continue to work until long after my death. It isn't just "farming" (more like gardening for most of these people) that this suffers. It's always cool to see someone's "make your own XYZ for your motorcycle" video on YouTube. But then you realize they just used a turret mill and a metal lathe to make a part you can buy for $100 on Amazon. Just the tooling they used costs over $100. And oh yeah, the part just has to be waited on for Amazon to ship it to me with free shipping via prime. I build stuff in my free time, but I don't pretend it's cost effective or even a good use of my time. It's just a way to pass the time.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  You have a good point re needing a working tractor. However on the GP's "just by it from AliBaba" I'd really be surprised if such items would last long enough to become the "rusted one in a field" at a later date; I'd expect the "expensive" home made one might be that long lasting though.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    It depends on the item. China is known for low quality goods because companies outsource to China to save money. They are telling the companies in China to make cheap crap. The manufacturers are perfectly capable and more than happy to make high quality items, it just isn't requested of them very often. It is always "use the thinnest possible" not "make it twice as thick as it really needs to be".
- abakker 10y ago
  My friend and I call this the "my uncle's machine shop" phenomenon after the seemingly endless forum posts about cars, desert racing, mountain bikes, woodworking etc where someone says something like, "I didn't have the part handy, so I drove over to my Uncle's machine shop and we milled it out of a 6x6x6 inch cube of billet aluminum he had lying around. Then we anodized it, and used it to fix our broken plastic xyz part." I have consciously spent tens of thousands of dollars on tools to be more capable of building things for myself (bad Return on cash). But some of the stuff these people make and have access to astounds me.
disposablezero 10y ago
They're SJH: Social Justice Hackers; minus the social, the justice or the hacking. If that SJH TED guy actually depended on an ag livelihood which necessitated functioning equipment, maybe they'd been able to dogfood workable designs to be almost as good as commercial products, or at least not as terrible as solar roadways. Instead, they have a wiki for a Moller, which will stay unrealized... forever.
erikpukinskis 10y ago
Everyone in this subthread is missing the point of open source industrial equipment. The point is not to get a cheap tractor, or even a good one. The point is not to have a tractor you can service. The point is to have a shared platform. If you buy a random used tractor and mod it, and I buy a different one, the probability that your mod is compatible with my tractor is low. If I am just as skilled as you at designing and fabricating parts, maybe that's ok.... I can just adapt your plans to my machine. With open source hardware, though, you can be a skilled machine designer, release detailed plans, and then a less skilled designer can come along, follow your fabrication instructions, and have a chance that your mod will work on their hardware. Open sourcing the plans is essentially providing an standard API for the machine. If you are satisfied that the existing market for farm equipment gives you an optimally efficient process already, then this is of no benefit to you. If you are a tinkerer and would like to build off a community of tinkerers to design new workflows for your operation, you might find an open source hardware project valuable.

randomdata 10y ago

> I'm always curious when I see these websites if these tools are created by well-intentioned people that don't know the industry, or actual workers in that industry. For what it is worth, as a farmer myself, I'm under the impression that a lot of these projects were created for someone's garden/backyard project, not a farm. That doesn't diminish their utility in that application, but the usefulness may not translate to farm-scale. But it's always fun to see what other people are doing, even if it isn't necessarily useful on my own farm. I wish discovery was a little better though. The site makes it difficult to segment the tools that are designed for the garden and those that would fit in on a larger farm.