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USB-C charging looks great on paper but disappoints when devices don't charge. Your device may support a subset of the different USB charging protocols: *

by ce4 10y ago

USB-C charging looks great on paper but disappoints when devices don't charge. Your device may support a subset of the different USB charging protocols: * USB 1.1 lo power: 5V/100mA * USB 2.0 hi power: 5V/500mA * USB 3.0: 5V/900mA * USB BC (battery charging): 5V/1.5A * USB quickcharge 1.0/2.0/3.0, proprietary Qualcomm standard * USB PD (power delivery) 5 profiles offering up to 100W (5/12/20V @ 1.5/2/3/5A) MacBooks also use a nonstandard 15V USB-PD profile. Unrelated to the MacBook, but problems i see with USB-C are: Chargers may offer cryptographic signatures in the future for authentication against a whitelist at the device. Second and most problematic: The MacBook is a good citizen here, but many laptops (HP business series, Dell XPS series) only support USB-C PD with profile 4&5 (20V/3A+). This rules out the car dongle as well as cheap USB power banks. The connector is always the same, the customer cannot deduce charger/device compatibility. The experience will suck. Edit: typos/formatting

johansch 10y ago
> Charger may offer cryptographic signatures in the future for authentication against a whitelist at the device. Who would ever expect Apple to do something like that? Oh wait...
- BHSPitMonkey 10y ago
  That argument looks like FUD to me. That would be a surefire way to get shunned by the USB-IF and be forbidden from using official USB identification on your products.
  - SyneRyder 10y ago
    Apple is already doing something similar though on the new MacBook Pro, there is a software block on Thunderbolt 3 devices that haven't also been "macOS certified" by Apple: https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/21/tb3-enabler-enable-unsupported-thunderbolt-3-devices-hack-macbook-pro/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/21/tb3-enabler-enable-unsupporte...
hollander 10y ago
There will be the cheap Chinese chargers that will suck. Then customers will complain, and Belkin and others will notice and make good chargers with proper marks on the packaging. It won't take too long before customers and shops know what to buy or sell.
- ce4 10y ago
  I have that car adapter as well as a USB power bank. Both don't charge the Dell XPS 13, because it wants 20V/3A. The docs of both chargers and the Dell are light on the USB-PD details. The chargers are great for phones so i didn't return them. However there's not a single car charger nor a power bank that does usb-pd at 20V/3A at the moment. So sad.
- sklivvz1971 10y ago
  All chargers are Chinese, not only the ones which suck. Let's leave cheap shots at other countries out of here, thanks.
cletus 10y ago
Wow, that's more horrible than I thought. Thanks for the summary. I am honestly befuddled by USB-C. The allure of a universal connector? That's kinda pointless when the cables look mostly the same but support different feature subsets. It's insanity. It's bad enough that many manufacturers (I'm looking at you, Dell) don't differentiate between USB 2 and 3 Type A. C is so much worse for this. Instead of a pretty good $1200 13" Air we have a $1800+ cersion that's lost features (MagSafe, worse keyboard) to be a hair thinner that also requires $200 in dongles to connect to anything. Seriously, fuck you, Apple.
- ce4 10y ago
  I haven't come to a conclusion w/r to those "shiny" new MacBook features yet, but I'm not an Apple user either. Time will tell though. I hope Dell will improve its power circuitry in the future and support USB BC and PD 5V/3A. Let's hope it's just that current power chipsets lack those modes because of time to market pressure and Apple is ahead of its competitors here. I can understand your anger at Apple, I hear the same a lot from design and audio professionals... You may have got some downvotes for that last statement.
- gambiting 10y ago
  I don't know why you are getting downvoted(I guess it's the fuck you at the end), but I absolutely agree - if a cable fits in a port, it should just work. Anything else is horrible design that's user hostile. Apple sells an LG USB-C display, and if you use the USB-C cable bundled with the MacBook Pro, it doesn't work. And you don't get an error message - it just doesn't work. Some companies, for example Nintendo, figured this out a long time ago. Notice how with their consoles, if the disc/cartridge fits in the console, the console will always play it, even between generations. The customer shouldn't have to research arcane names and study symbols on cables - if it fits, it should just work. And USB-C is just a mess at the moment.
  - abritinthebay 10y ago
    The reason why is probably because he assumes a negative thing that hasn't happened and then rants against something that isn't a problem while being a bit of a dick...
tw04 10y ago
In other words, exactly like the early days of usb-micro/mini? I distinctly recall having chargers from blackberries that wouldn't support my first android phones due to being underpowered. I would imagine over time we'll see something almost identical only with two unofficial categories instead: One set of chargers will be for mobile devices and just support the highest standard we see in them. One will be for laptops and the same - just supports the highest profile for them.
- ce4 10y ago
  Well, not quite. Both chargers and devices need not support all charging standards/profiles and thus may disagree on working together. A working (all USB PD profiles up to 100W supporting) charger looks inherently the same as a profile-1 only one, and both may even say "USB PD" in the specs. Thank god the MacBook accepts the widespread 5V/3A USB-PD power level and even USB BC.
- dom0 10y ago
  > In other words, exactly like the early days of usb-micro/mini? Overall worse, because USB-C may also be used for other connections (eg DisplayPort), adding to the confusion. Plus all the different cables which can do different things and not support specific profiles of some things and others but they all have the same connectors. Confusing as heck.
  - inopinatus 10y ago
    This is not harder the the issue of 8P8C connectors. Depending on cable configuration, pinout, wall plate and structured wiring system that 8P8C might be usable (or not) for multiple different types of data networking, from the assorted ethernet speeds to E1 to token ring, or for a serial console, or delivering power and audio to a remote speaker, or hdmi-over-utp, or even -48V telephony, and let's not even get started on the only-subtly-different but actually incompatible RJ45 connector, or people sticking RJ11 plugs in 8P8C ports. And yet the world has coped with this proliferation.
    - 46Bit 10y ago
kylorhall 10y ago
Having had the Macbook 12" for a year and a half now and a Nexus 6p for a year, it's really been quite wonderful. I can charge my laptop or phone using the same charger – of course not as fast as the OEM charger, but wonderful for being on the move. I love that I can use a typical battery backup to charge my Macbook. I really wish everything of mine USB-C, and it will be soon. Right now it feels wonderful with OEM chargers, but you do have me worried about the future buying replacements and accessories.

by ce4 10y ago

johansch 10y ago

> Charger may offer cryptographic signatures in the future for authentication against a whitelist at the device. Who would ever expect Apple to do something like that? Oh wait...

BHSPitMonkey 10y ago
That argument looks like FUD to me. That would be a surefire way to get shunned by the USB-IF and be forbidden from using official USB identification on your products.
- SyneRyder 10y ago
  Apple is already doing something similar though on the new MacBook Pro, there is a software block on Thunderbolt 3 devices that haven't also been "macOS certified" by Apple: https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/21/tb3-enabler-enable-unsupported-thunderbolt-3-devices-hack-macbook-pro/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/21/tb3-enabler-enable-unsupporte...

hollander 10y ago

There will be the cheap Chinese chargers that will suck. Then customers will complain, and Belkin and others will notice and make good chargers with proper marks on the packaging. It won't take too long before customers and shops know what to buy or sell.

ce4 10y ago
I have that car adapter as well as a USB power bank. Both don't charge the Dell XPS 13, because it wants 20V/3A. The docs of both chargers and the Dell are light on the USB-PD details. The chargers are great for phones so i didn't return them. However there's not a single car charger nor a power bank that does usb-pd at 20V/3A at the moment. So sad.
sklivvz1971 10y ago
All chargers are Chinese, not only the ones which suck. Let's leave cheap shots at other countries out of here, thanks.

cletus 10y ago

Wow, that's more horrible than I thought. Thanks for the summary. I am honestly befuddled by USB-C. The allure of a universal connector? That's kinda pointless when the cables look mostly the same but support different feature subsets. It's insanity. It's bad enough that many manufacturers (I'm looking at you, Dell) don't differentiate between USB 2 and 3 Type A. C is so much worse for this. Instead of a pretty good $1200 13" Air we have a $1800+ cersion that's lost features (MagSafe, worse keyboard) to be a hair thinner that also requires $200 in dongles to connect to anything. Seriously, fuck you, Apple.

ce4 10y ago
I haven't come to a conclusion w/r to those "shiny" new MacBook features yet, but I'm not an Apple user either. Time will tell though. I hope Dell will improve its power circuitry in the future and support USB BC and PD 5V/3A. Let's hope it's just that current power chipsets lack those modes because of time to market pressure and Apple is ahead of its competitors here. I can understand your anger at Apple, I hear the same a lot from design and audio professionals... You may have got some downvotes for that last statement.
gambiting 10y ago
I don't know why you are getting downvoted(I guess it's the fuck you at the end), but I absolutely agree - if a cable fits in a port, it should just work. Anything else is horrible design that's user hostile. Apple sells an LG USB-C display, and if you use the USB-C cable bundled with the MacBook Pro, it doesn't work. And you don't get an error message - it just doesn't work. Some companies, for example Nintendo, figured this out a long time ago. Notice how with their consoles, if the disc/cartridge fits in the console, the console will always play it, even between generations. The customer shouldn't have to research arcane names and study symbols on cables - if it fits, it should just work. And USB-C is just a mess at the moment.
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  The reason why is probably because he assumes a negative thing that hasn't happened and then rants against something that isn't a problem while being a bit of a dick...

tw04 10y ago

In other words, exactly like the early days of usb-micro/mini? I distinctly recall having chargers from blackberries that wouldn't support my first android phones due to being underpowered. I would imagine over time we'll see something almost identical only with two unofficial categories instead: One set of chargers will be for mobile devices and just support the highest standard we see in them. One will be for laptops and the same - just supports the highest profile for them.

ce4 10y ago
Well, not quite. Both chargers and devices need not support all charging standards/profiles and thus may disagree on working together. A working (all USB PD profiles up to 100W supporting) charger looks inherently the same as a profile-1 only one, and both may even say "USB PD" in the specs. Thank god the MacBook accepts the widespread 5V/3A USB-PD power level and even USB BC.
dom0 10y ago
> In other words, exactly like the early days of usb-micro/mini? Overall worse, because USB-C may also be used for other connections (eg DisplayPort), adding to the confusion. Plus all the different cables which can do different things and not support specific profiles of some things and others but they all have the same connectors. Confusing as heck.
- inopinatus 10y ago
  This is not harder the the issue of 8P8C connectors. Depending on cable configuration, pinout, wall plate and structured wiring system that 8P8C might be usable (or not) for multiple different types of data networking, from the assorted ethernet speeds to E1 to token ring, or for a serial console, or delivering power and audio to a remote speaker, or hdmi-over-utp, or even -48V telephony, and let's not even get started on the only-subtly-different but actually incompatible RJ45 connector, or people sticking RJ11 plugs in 8P8C ports. And yet the world has coped with this proliferation.
  - 46Bit 10y ago

kylorhall 10y ago

Having had the Macbook 12" for a year and a half now and a Nexus 6p for a year, it's really been quite wonderful. I can charge my laptop or phone using the same charger – of course not as fast as the OEM charger, but wonderful for being on the move. I love that I can use a typical battery backup to charge my Macbook. I really wish everything of mine USB-C, and it will be soon. Right now it feels wonderful with OEM chargers, but you do have me worried about the future buying replacements and accessories.