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> I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) I disagree. Aside from a

by jnbiche 10y ago

> I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) I disagree. Aside from a few highly political engineers and/or software devs, almost all engineers I know insist on actually looking at the facts and evaluating them to the best of their ability, regardless of their political inclinations. This is a very rare characteristic in our society, and I can't help but to believe it's a very virtuous trait to have for a legislator. Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. Most engineers also have a pretty rare ability to listen to and to accept criticism. That's not always something legislators can boast of. I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less. Also, what exact lack of understanding in terms of "structure" of the current system did you find appalling in those blockchain hackers? Can you be more specific?

ryuker16 10y ago
that's a techocracy.... unfortunately, many modern horrible regimes are techocracies since engineering/science majors are the norm outside the west. Communist governments were super big on STEM and still implemented the same horseshit policies and woo woo beliefs. >Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! >I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either.
- jnbiche 10y ago
  > In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! This is an excellent counterpoint. You're totally right that in many countries (former communist countries, particularly, as you say), STEM educated elites often were the top officials. However, it doesn't detract from my point that in this country, we would benefit from more scientists and engineers in government. > I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either. This may help us with professional issues, but it likely won't help our system of government.
  - ryuker16 10y ago
    I was thinking an advisory lobby like the AMA. Some respected organization that can issue statements others can point to as sane beliefs back by many in the industry.
  - intended 10y ago
    Take this as a warning - I think your idea is too late. I've been watching the various attempts at improving education in America and it smells Exactly like what india/china have. There's many details but broadly there's 1 major forces that shape this economics-jobs 1) as normal jobs dry up/stop paying a good wage, it puts a downward pressure on education in things like politics/English/arts/philosophy and so on. This means people shift to the only hope left - STEM Talking to people on forums from America who were exposed to multiple streams (and not just STEM) I can say you guys have historically enjoyed a deep insulation/resilience to stupid ideas/half baked ideas. Because you had people with diverse information, you could always stop a neophyte engineer from executing a shortest path solution with costs not apparent to engineers. Once you have no jobs left for those people, parents will force their kids into the only options left. This saturates the system with posers - people who pretend to like engineering but would rather be psychologists, painters, marketers or any non technical job. This overloads and blows the fuses in the higher education application process, which forces them to adapt by adding more criteria and stricter criteria to get in. The kinds of engineers you produce tomorrow are going to be unconcerned with being engineers. They are engineers to finish their first job stint and get an MBA. Ethics become a word and a course you waste your time on, because if ethics mattered you wouldn't be an engineer in the first place. Any system proposed needs to build with this in mind. I think simply making it useful to have multi discipline knowledge will be a way to maintain Your cultural resistance. Sorry if I'm rambling
    - ryuker16 10y ago
      Your 100% right. Although admittedly in america, our lack of stem focus partially comes from the cult of money. Brilliant would be scientists and inventors are financially pushed towards the business, law, & finance fields. It helps keep keep engineering well paid which is nice....but I suspect we've could have advanced much further if half the traders and quants on Wall Street were in an innovation oriented field. Reminds me of a guy from a top comp science program getting paid to be basically a secretary in a finance firm.
enraged_camel 10y ago
>>Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. And they won't be, until they get a taste for them. The saying "power corrupts" exists for a reason, because it's true. Very few people in history have been able to resist the temptations that come with it and stay true to their principles.
atmosx 10y ago
> Also, what exact lack of understanding in terms of "structure" of the current system did you find appalling in those blockchain hackers? Can you be more specific? - How currencies are created by a population or state? - How currencies are adopted/enforced to/by a population or state? - What is the role of a central bank in a modern economy? - How if the "Chair of the FED" appointed? - What is the inflation rate? - Why does a central bank get to decide the inflation rate? - Why exchange currencies (e.g. USD, EUR, etc) are inflationary? - What is democracy? (by extension is it in the best interest of a democracy having a CB-backed currency or a virtual currency?) - Can a player with vast amounts of shares/bitcoins/USDs fix the price of the stock/share/btc? - Can money be a-political? > I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less. Two examples of technocratic governance are (A) Greece and (B) Economics/Finance: (A) In 2015 Greece has been turned officially into a colony[1]. In essence it's been a colony since 2010. All major political decisions are taken from a technocratic board. Basically the Greek govenrment acts as the executive branch. The legislative power been delegrated to a supranational authority, which 60% of Greeks rejected btw. The technocratic board, known as 'Troika', has done mistakes[2]. While the IMF will issue a sorry we made a few mistakes statement and go home, people in Greece have to live with the consequences for the years to come. No Greek politician is capable of inflicting such MASSIVE amount of pain to an economy without getting a glimpse of hope in return, none. Only a technocrat can do that. Of course technocrats (much like neo-liberals or communists) will say that you're not technocratic enough, but this simply doesn't hold water: there's theory and practice. Practice shows that they've screw up massively, so massively that by the time they end-up with Greece, Greece may very well have been turned into a military-state of the worst kind. (B) Currently finance relies on non-realistic financial models, to justify toxic asset risk dispersion/assessment. This dominance of mathematics in Economics (The queen of social sciences) has been going strong for the last 40 years or so. The problem is not that top university educated economists are not good with formulas. Some of those guys make rounds around your average engineer. The problem is that in order to explain social reality through a mathematical model they start accepting generilizations which are simply NOT true. So in the end of the day, you have a mathematical model which is out of touch with reality and 2008 happens, Trump happens, Brexit happens... All these things happened because of the mathematicalisation of economics. I think post-2008 it's really hard to argue replacing social sciences (and I believe legislation is a very social science, economics too) with technocratic counterparts. Everyone should have a say, but the final decision on social matters, should rest with social sciences. [1]: https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/08/17/greeces-third-mou-memorandum-of-understading-annotated-by-yanis-varoufakis/ https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/08/17/greeces-third-mou-memo... [2]: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-21/imf-needs-to-correct-its-big-greek-bailout-mistake https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-21/imf-needs...
tripzilch 10y ago
> Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. You haven't had enough to know what it's like...

by jnbiche 10y ago

ryuker16 10y ago

that's a techocracy.... unfortunately, many modern horrible regimes are techocracies since engineering/science majors are the norm outside the west. Communist governments were super big on STEM and still implemented the same horseshit policies and woo woo beliefs. >Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! >I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either.

jnbiche 10y ago
> In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! This is an excellent counterpoint. You're totally right that in many countries (former communist countries, particularly, as you say), STEM educated elites often were the top officials. However, it doesn't detract from my point that in this country, we would benefit from more scientists and engineers in government. > I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either. This may help us with professional issues, but it likely won't help our system of government.
- ryuker16 10y ago
  I was thinking an advisory lobby like the AMA. Some respected organization that can issue statements others can point to as sane beliefs back by many in the industry.
- intended 10y ago
  Take this as a warning - I think your idea is too late. I've been watching the various attempts at improving education in America and it smells Exactly like what india/china have. There's many details but broadly there's 1 major forces that shape this economics-jobs 1) as normal jobs dry up/stop paying a good wage, it puts a downward pressure on education in things like politics/English/arts/philosophy and so on. This means people shift to the only hope left - STEM Talking to people on forums from America who were exposed to multiple streams (and not just STEM) I can say you guys have historically enjoyed a deep insulation/resilience to stupid ideas/half baked ideas. Because you had people with diverse information, you could always stop a neophyte engineer from executing a shortest path solution with costs not apparent to engineers. Once you have no jobs left for those people, parents will force their kids into the only options left. This saturates the system with posers - people who pretend to like engineering but would rather be psychologists, painters, marketers or any non technical job. This overloads and blows the fuses in the higher education application process, which forces them to adapt by adding more criteria and stricter criteria to get in. The kinds of engineers you produce tomorrow are going to be unconcerned with being engineers. They are engineers to finish their first job stint and get an MBA. Ethics become a word and a course you waste your time on, because if ethics mattered you wouldn't be an engineer in the first place. Any system proposed needs to build with this in mind. I think simply making it useful to have multi discipline knowledge will be a way to maintain Your cultural resistance. Sorry if I'm rambling
  - ryuker16 10y ago
    Your 100% right. Although admittedly in america, our lack of stem focus partially comes from the cult of money. Brilliant would be scientists and inventors are financially pushed towards the business, law, & finance fields. It helps keep keep engineering well paid which is nice....but I suspect we've could have advanced much further if half the traders and quants on Wall Street were in an innovation oriented field. Reminds me of a guy from a top comp science program getting paid to be basically a secretary in a finance firm.

enraged_camel 10y ago

>>Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. And they won't be, until they get a taste for them. The saying "power corrupts" exists for a reason, because it's true. Very few people in history have been able to resist the temptations that come with it and stay true to their principles.

atmosx 10y ago

> Also, what exact lack of understanding in terms of "structure" of the current system did you find appalling in those blockchain hackers? Can you be more specific? - How currencies are created by a population or state? - How currencies are adopted/enforced to/by a population or state? - What is the role of a central bank in a modern economy? - How if the "Chair of the FED" appointed? - What is the inflation rate? - Why does a central bank get to decide the inflation rate? - Why exchange currencies (e.g. USD, EUR, etc) are inflationary? - What is democracy? (by extension is it in the best interest of a democracy having a CB-backed currency or a virtual currency?) - Can a player with vast amounts of shares/bitcoins/USDs fix the price of the stock/share/btc? - Can money be a-political? > I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less. Two examples of technocratic governance are (A) Greece and (B) Economics/Finance: (A) In 2015 Greece has been turned officially into a colony[1]. In essence it's been a colony since 2010. All major political decisions are taken from a technocratic board. Basically the Greek govenrment acts as the executive branch. The legislative power been delegrated to a supranational authority, which 60% of Greeks rejected btw. The technocratic board, known as 'Troika', has done mistakes[2]. While the IMF will issue a sorry we made a few mistakes statement and go home, people in Greece have to live with the consequences for the years to come. No Greek politician is capable of inflicting such MASSIVE amount of pain to an economy without getting a glimpse of hope in return, none. Only a technocrat can do that. Of course technocrats (much like neo-liberals or communists) will say that you're not technocratic enough, but this simply doesn't hold water: there's theory and practice. Practice shows that they've screw up massively, so massively that by the time they end-up with Greece, Greece may very well have been turned into a military-state of the worst kind. (B) Currently finance relies on non-realistic financial models, to justify toxic asset risk dispersion/assessment. This dominance of mathematics in Economics (The queen of social sciences) has been going strong for the last 40 years or so. The problem is not that top university educated economists are not good with formulas. Some of those guys make rounds around your average engineer. The problem is that in order to explain social reality through a mathematical model they start accepting generilizations which are simply NOT true. So in the end of the day, you have a mathematical model which is out of touch with reality and 2008 happens, Trump happens, Brexit happens... All these things happened because of the mathematicalisation of economics. I think post-2008 it's really hard to argue replacing social sciences (and I believe legislation is a very social science, economics too) with technocratic counterparts. Everyone should have a say, but the final decision on social matters, should rest with social sciences. [1]: https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/08/17/greeces-third-mou-memorandum-of-understading-annotated-by-yanis-varoufakis/ https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/08/17/greeces-third-mou-memo... [2]: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-21/imf-needs-to-correct-its-big-greek-bailout-mistake https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-04-21/imf-needs...

tripzilch 10y ago

> Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. You haven't had enough to know what it's like...