5 ms·

"In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." https://medium.com/initialized-capital/fascism-and-the-historic

by dluan 10y ago

"In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." https://medium.com/initialized-capital/fascism-and-the-historical-irony-of-facebooks-fake-news-problem-d744b05045fd#.xe5433ci0 https://medium.com/initialized-capital/fascism-and-the-histo...

threatofrain 10y ago
Are the construction workers legislators of the road? Are actors the legislators of TV? Engineers do not own their efforts, and nor do construction workers or actors.
atmosx 10y ago
> "In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." Legislation is a rather complex sport that requires deep understanding of repercussions. I've seen rather skilled blockchain hackers talking economics, finance, politics and monetary policy. Their understanding of the current system (in terms of structure) was appalling. One needs to know the role of central banks before bashing them. I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-)
- jstanley 10y ago
  > I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. Sadly, so does your average legislator.
- jnbiche 10y ago
  > I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) I disagree. Aside from a few highly political engineers and/or software devs, almost all engineers I know insist on actually looking at the facts and evaluating them to the best of their ability, regardless of their political inclinations. This is a very rare characteristic in our society, and I can't help but to believe it's a very virtuous trait to have for a legislator. Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. Most engineers also have a pretty rare ability to listen to and to accept criticism. That's not always something legislators can boast of. I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less. Also, what exact lack of understanding in terms of "structure" of the current system did you find appalling in those blockchain hackers? Can you be more specific?
  - ryuker16 10y ago
    that's a techocracy.... unfortunately, many modern horrible regimes are techocracies since engineering/science majors are the norm outside the west. Communist governments were super big on STEM and still implemented the same horseshit policies and woo woo beliefs. >Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! >I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either.
    - jnbiche 10y ago
      > In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! This is an excellent counterpoint. You're totally right that in many countries (former communist countries, particularly, as you say), STEM educated elites often were the top officials. However, it doesn't detract from my point that in this country, we would benefit from more scientists and engineers in government. > I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either. This may help us with professional issues, but it likely won't help our system of government.
      - ryuker16 10y ago
        I was thinking an advisory lobby like the AMA. Some respected organization that can issue statements others can point to as sane beliefs back by many in the industry.
      - intended 10y ago
        Take this as a warning - I think your idea is too late. I've been watching the various attempts at improving education in America and it smells Exactly like what india/china have. There's many details but broadly there's 1 major forces that shape this economics-jobs 1) as normal jobs dry up/stop paying a good wage, it puts a downward pressure on education in things like politics/English/arts/philosophy and so on. This means people shift to the only hope left - STEM Talking to people on forums from America who were exposed to multiple streams (and not just STEM) I can say you guys have historically enjoyed a deep insulation/resilience to stupid ideas/half baked ideas. Because you had people with diverse information, you could always stop a neophyte engineer from executing a shortest path solution with costs not apparent to engineers. Once you have no jobs left for those people, parents will force their kids into the only options left. This saturates the system with posers - people who pretend to like engineering but would rather be psychologists, painters, marketers or any non technical job. This overloads and blows the fuses in the higher education application process, which forces them to adapt by adding more criteria and stricter criteria to get in. The kinds of engineers you produce tomorrow are going to be unconcerned with being engineers. They are engineers to finish their first job stint and get an MBA. Ethics become a word and a course you waste your time on, because if ethics mattered you wouldn't be an engineer in the first place. Any system proposed needs to build with this in mind. I think simply making it useful to have multi discipline knowledge will be a way to maintain Your cultural resistance. Sorry if I'm rambling
- lmm 10y ago
  > I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) We can no longer separate legislation from engineering. We need a way to get people who are good at both, whether that's training engineers as legislators, training legislators as engineers, or something else.
A_COMPUTER 10y ago
>So, if you start thinking down that line, if someone threatened murder, you’d probably take that off the platform. If someone threatened assault, you’d take that off. But if a presidential candidate threatens to imprison an entire religious minority[...] It's easy to see what he's referring to here, and thus, he demonstrates that he's captured by fake news as well, and doesn't even recognize it. Half-truths or intentional misreading of things Trump has said are bread and butter of the left wing's fake news organizations. As a side note, he succinctly explains with what is wrong with a coincident push by the same people, banning of certain viewpoints off Twitter. Oh well it's a private company, and they can run it how they want! Your free speech is not being violated. But as he just admits, these private entities are extremely powerful brokers of speech, and what they decide stays and goes has a very large impact on society. But, consistency is not the strong suit of these people. It is entirely whatever argument works at the time.

by dluan 10y ago

threatofrain 10y ago

Are the construction workers legislators of the road? Are actors the legislators of TV? Engineers do not own their efforts, and nor do construction workers or actors.

atmosx 10y ago

> "In any case, we can’t pretend that engineers are not legislators of public discourse anymore." Legislation is a rather complex sport that requires deep understanding of repercussions. I've seen rather skilled blockchain hackers talking economics, finance, politics and monetary policy. Their understanding of the current system (in terms of structure) was appalling. One needs to know the role of central banks before bashing them. I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-)

jstanley 10y ago
> I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. Sadly, so does your average legislator.
jnbiche 10y ago
> I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) I disagree. Aside from a few highly political engineers and/or software devs, almost all engineers I know insist on actually looking at the facts and evaluating them to the best of their ability, regardless of their political inclinations. This is a very rare characteristic in our society, and I can't help but to believe it's a very virtuous trait to have for a legislator. Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. Most engineers also have a pretty rare ability to listen to and to accept criticism. That's not always something legislators can boast of. I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less. Also, what exact lack of understanding in terms of "structure" of the current system did you find appalling in those blockchain hackers? Can you be more specific?
- ryuker16 10y ago
  that's a techocracy.... unfortunately, many modern horrible regimes are techocracies since engineering/science majors are the norm outside the west. Communist governments were super big on STEM and still implemented the same horseshit policies and woo woo beliefs. >Most engineers also aren't inflicted with the lust for power and status like so many (most?) attorneys I know. In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! >I think we need more scientists, engineers, software professionals, etc. in our political system, not less I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either.
  - jnbiche 10y ago
    > In the west, engineering doesn't attract those types. In other countries where its the quickest way to make buck? Hell yeah! This is an excellent counterpoint. You're totally right that in many countries (former communist countries, particularly, as you say), STEM educated elites often were the top officials. However, it doesn't detract from my point that in this country, we would benefit from more scientists and engineers in government. > I think we need a bigger guild like organization with a lobby. Not some industry sponsored group either. This may help us with professional issues, but it likely won't help our system of government.
    - ryuker16 10y ago
      I was thinking an advisory lobby like the AMA. Some respected organization that can issue statements others can point to as sane beliefs back by many in the industry.
    - intended 10y ago
      Take this as a warning - I think your idea is too late. I've been watching the various attempts at improving education in America and it smells Exactly like what india/china have. There's many details but broadly there's 1 major forces that shape this economics-jobs 1) as normal jobs dry up/stop paying a good wage, it puts a downward pressure on education in things like politics/English/arts/philosophy and so on. This means people shift to the only hope left - STEM Talking to people on forums from America who were exposed to multiple streams (and not just STEM) I can say you guys have historically enjoyed a deep insulation/resilience to stupid ideas/half baked ideas. Because you had people with diverse information, you could always stop a neophyte engineer from executing a shortest path solution with costs not apparent to engineers. Once you have no jobs left for those people, parents will force their kids into the only options left. This saturates the system with posers - people who pretend to like engineering but would rather be psychologists, painters, marketers or any non technical job. This overloads and blows the fuses in the higher education application process, which forces them to adapt by adding more criteria and stricter criteria to get in. The kinds of engineers you produce tomorrow are going to be unconcerned with being engineers. They are engineers to finish their first job stint and get an MBA. Ethics become a word and a course you waste your time on, because if ethics mattered you wouldn't be an engineer in the first place. Any system proposed needs to build with this in mind. I think simply making it useful to have multi discipline knowledge will be a way to maintain Your cultural resistance. Sorry if I'm rambling
lmm 10y ago
> I am afraid that your average engineer will make a pretty incompetent legislator. So let's leave legislation to legislators... :-) We can no longer separate legislation from engineering. We need a way to get people who are good at both, whether that's training engineers as legislators, training legislators as engineers, or something else.

A_COMPUTER 10y ago

>So, if you start thinking down that line, if someone threatened murder, you’d probably take that off the platform. If someone threatened assault, you’d take that off. But if a presidential candidate threatens to imprison an entire religious minority[...] It's easy to see what he's referring to here, and thus, he demonstrates that he's captured by fake news as well, and doesn't even recognize it. Half-truths or intentional misreading of things Trump has said are bread and butter of the left wing's fake news organizations. As a side note, he succinctly explains with what is wrong with a coincident push by the same people, banning of certain viewpoints off Twitter. Oh well it's a private company, and they can run it how they want! Your free speech is not being violated. But as he just admits, these private entities are extremely powerful brokers of speech, and what they decide stays and goes has a very large impact on society. But, consistency is not the strong suit of these people. It is entirely whatever argument works at the time.