5 ms·

> I hope we don't get to the point where it's really just all out information warfare... and it seems like we're already halfway there. We live in a world whe

by reitoei 10y ago

> I hope we don't get to the point where it's really just all out information warfare... and it seems like we're already halfway there. We live in a world where the Daily Mail is the most-visited English language news web site and people are using fucking toasters to launch DDOS attacks. The internet has gone to hell. We've already lost.

titzer 10y ago
It's not all bad. We're here, aren't we?
- reitoei 10y ago
  Going totally OT here for a sec, but you guys are awesome. Seriously. This is one of the only places I feel I can come where people are, for the most part, respectful and polite to each other. Nobody is pushing a personal agenda with religion, politics or ethics. Nobody is trying to convince you the world is flat or that aliens built the pyramids. Nobody cares if you're male/female/trans/whatever. Just a bunch of folks talking about their passion without the overhead (for want of a better word) of the everyday web. Places like HN are rare these days. If there is anything similar, please let me know.
  - TorKlingberg 10y ago
    Maybe a couple of years ago. Today, I wouldn’t trust the average HN commenter to evaluate even the silliest conspiracy theory. Even back then, it only worked because we aggressively downvoted the nutters and ignored their complaints.
  - forgetsusername 10y ago
    HackerNews happens to share your values and opinions on things like religion and politics. Donald Trump just won the election; did you read the opinions of people here on this happening? And while we may not be pushing a Flat World, there are plenty of conspiracy theories and ignorance on topics (eg. banks), and a fanaticism with regards to a other things (eg. Tesla) . Opposing views on these sorts of topics are smashed with down votes. My point is, of course it feels comfortable amongst like minded people. But don't extrapolate that to mean this is somehow a special place that's uniquely accepting of all opinions. If you don't believe me, do what the guy in the article did, and play devil's advocate in a few comment threads here.
    - reitoei 10y ago
      Fair point. Edit: The Trump thing, from my perspective, seemed to get wrapped up in one post and then people moved on. I'm with you on the Tesla worship.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
        I think the Tesla fans are more vocal with their praise. There are some detractors. And I think there's a lot of people here who, like myself, don't have much to add to the conversation and keep quite.
    - thenomad 10y ago
      I've seen a few Trump supporters posting. They weren't popular but in comparison to most other sites I visit opposing views were more tolerated.
      - fein 10y ago
        We're around, we just keep it under wraps. HN has a hard liberal slant. There are a lot of bleeding hearts in SV, so not much of a point to bring political views into tech discussions. I try to avoid any "technical" convos on what people fear may happen when legislation doesn't even exist in the planning phases yet. Too many irrationally scared people to have those exchanges.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      HackerNews happens to share your values and opinions on things like religion and politics. I don't believe that to be true. Firstly "Hacker News" isn't a coherent whole, and also in any politically charged discussion here there are always diametrically opposing views.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      >> HackerNews happens to share your values and opinions on things like religion and politics. There are pretty diverse political views here. I don't know if you remember all the HN discussions on Brendan Eich's political donations a while back, but things got pretty heated on both sides. The for and against arguments pretty much drowned out any opinions in the middle.
  - JeremyMorgan 10y ago
    I agree. It's slightly political here, but easily avoided and you rarely see attacks. I used to enjoy Google+ for the same reasons. The crowd was smarter, geekier and seemed a far cry from the Facebook swamp. Unfortunately in the last 6 months or so G+ has been infiltrated. This place and a few subreddits are all I know of.
  - intoverflow2 10y ago
    Isn't this the other half of the problem? People sitting comfy in their echo chambers. I'm sure the people on alt-right forums feel the same way about their fellow posters.
    - reitoei 10y ago
      Is that fair though? Would you consider a something like a online bee-keeping community or a MUD an 'echo chamber'? I think the phrase gets bandied about a bit too easily nowadays. Alt-right forums have a specific agenda, the former would have none. I see HN in that regard, but that's just me.
      - meira 10y ago
        You don't think HN has an agenda? Everyone has an agenda. You just agree with this one.
        reitoei 10y ago
        I don't think it really does to be honest. That's just my personal experience with the site, we're obviously looking through different lenses. I can't agree or disagree with something I'm not aware of.
        meira 10y ago
        You can't see the agenda, but is part of it. An "agenda" don't need to be bad to most people outside the inner circle, which is exactly the case of SV and HN. They "just" want to hold the power and who benefits from the prosperity created.
        MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
        Sure, everyone and every group has a de facto agenda. But the agenda of HN feels to me like "have productive, civil discourse, in a generally pro-technological advancement vein". The agenda of, say, /pol/, is much more directional and polarized (propagating racist and fascist memes, basically, with the broader goal of propagating racism and fascism). There's a much tighter focus and intent to the latter, which makes it feel much more like "an agenda" colloquially, and it seems like a distinction worth noting, rather than eliding it by saying "everyone has an agenda."
  - spacewhale 10y ago
    >for the most part, respectful and polite to each other... If someone smart want to sell bullshit here, they will do so in the most respectful and polite manner and the most dangerous part, they will do so by wrapping it up in things that are most appealing to people here. So, say, you want people to give you their money, they will come here and say, give me your money or just talk about me, because the world down here is ending and I will take you to the stars. People everywhere at all times, didn't think twice when someone offered them salvation....You may be smart. But 'people' everywhere, in sufficient quantities, is dumb. This place is no different.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    Overall, HN is pretty good because people here care a lot about facts. If, however, you don't think there are echo chambers here, you might want to look again. The parameters are just different here. The echo chambers here tend to be related to > surprise, surprise < technical stuff, and things can get pretty heated and occasionally mean. Fortunately there is a lot of self-policing here, but on some topics you might notice excessive downvoting of non-inflammatory opinions that simply run counter to what the herd is thinking. People might not care about your gender/religion here, but they do focus on other attributes. I've seen people marginalized or dismissed as not being "real programmers" for using a glossy screen, PHP (not so much now, but PHP debates were really bad a few years ago), etc. On any given day, you'll find some people who think that Microsoft/Google/Facebook/Apple/etc. are crooked and evil and will never change their opinion. On the same note, you'll also find people who think Apple/Tesla/Elon Musk/etc. are infallible. More recently, if you look at the debates over the whether the new Macbook Pro is "pro enough", you'll see a lot of comments to the effect that "it's [not] like that for me, so it must [not] be true for you/everyone else [either]", which is pretty similar to the bubbles people sit in the non-HN world too.
    - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
      Don't forget the vicious anti-JS sentiments that get voted to the top in most threads about JS as a language (they seem to not bother stepping into the discussions about particular JS frameworks/projects, mercifully). Being a dev who mostly works with JS, and happens to enjoy it and think it's a fine language, makes me feel like a closeted Trump voter in HN land. But yea, aside from the tech-centric bubbles and biases, the intellectual climate here is pretty refreshing compared to Reddit, Twitter or FB.
      - reitoei 10y ago
        > the intellectual climate here is pretty refreshing compared to Reddit, Twitter or FB This is what I was trying to say in my original comment. I guess I got a bit too hyperbolic :)
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- eponeponepon 10y ago
  Can you be sure of that? Can anyone? Might you and I not be the same Markov chain generator without even knowing it?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
api 10y ago
Pop is crap. Always has been, always will be. We now have a pop Internet. I too was optimistic years ago that it might not become crap, but I think we are just seeing the reality here.

by reitoei 10y ago

titzer 10y ago

It's not all bad. We're here, aren't we?

reitoei 10y ago
Going totally OT here for a sec, but you guys are awesome. Seriously. This is one of the only places I feel I can come where people are, for the most part, respectful and polite to each other. Nobody is pushing a personal agenda with religion, politics or ethics. Nobody is trying to convince you the world is flat or that aliens built the pyramids. Nobody cares if you're male/female/trans/whatever. Just a bunch of folks talking about their passion without the overhead (for want of a better word) of the everyday web. Places like HN are rare these days. If there is anything similar, please let me know.
- TorKlingberg 10y ago
  Maybe a couple of years ago. Today, I wouldn’t trust the average HN commenter to evaluate even the silliest conspiracy theory. Even back then, it only worked because we aggressively downvoted the nutters and ignored their complaints.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  HackerNews happens to share your values and opinions on things like religion and politics. Donald Trump just won the election; did you read the opinions of people here on this happening? And while we may not be pushing a Flat World, there are plenty of conspiracy theories and ignorance on topics (eg. banks), and a fanaticism with regards to a other things (eg. Tesla) . Opposing views on these sorts of topics are smashed with down votes. My point is, of course it feels comfortable amongst like minded people. But don't extrapolate that to mean this is somehow a special place that's uniquely accepting of all opinions. If you don't believe me, do what the guy in the article did, and play devil's advocate in a few comment threads here.
  - reitoei 10y ago
    Fair point. Edit: The Trump thing, from my perspective, seemed to get wrapped up in one post and then people moved on. I'm with you on the Tesla worship.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      I think the Tesla fans are more vocal with their praise. There are some detractors. And I think there's a lot of people here who, like myself, don't have much to add to the conversation and keep quite.
  - thenomad 10y ago
    I've seen a few Trump supporters posting. They weren't popular but in comparison to most other sites I visit opposing views were more tolerated.
    - fein 10y ago
      We're around, we just keep it under wraps. HN has a hard liberal slant. There are a lot of bleeding hearts in SV, so not much of a point to bring political views into tech discussions. I try to avoid any "technical" convos on what people fear may happen when legislation doesn't even exist in the planning phases yet. Too many irrationally scared people to have those exchanges.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    HackerNews happens to share your values and opinions on things like religion and politics. I don't believe that to be true. Firstly "Hacker News" isn't a coherent whole, and also in any politically charged discussion here there are always diametrically opposing views.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    >> HackerNews happens to share your values and opinions on things like religion and politics. There are pretty diverse political views here. I don't know if you remember all the HN discussions on Brendan Eich's political donations a while back, but things got pretty heated on both sides. The for and against arguments pretty much drowned out any opinions in the middle.
- JeremyMorgan 10y ago
  I agree. It's slightly political here, but easily avoided and you rarely see attacks. I used to enjoy Google+ for the same reasons. The crowd was smarter, geekier and seemed a far cry from the Facebook swamp. Unfortunately in the last 6 months or so G+ has been infiltrated. This place and a few subreddits are all I know of.
- intoverflow2 10y ago
  Isn't this the other half of the problem? People sitting comfy in their echo chambers. I'm sure the people on alt-right forums feel the same way about their fellow posters.
  - reitoei 10y ago
    Is that fair though? Would you consider a something like a online bee-keeping community or a MUD an 'echo chamber'? I think the phrase gets bandied about a bit too easily nowadays. Alt-right forums have a specific agenda, the former would have none. I see HN in that regard, but that's just me.
    - meira 10y ago
      You don't think HN has an agenda? Everyone has an agenda. You just agree with this one.
      - reitoei 10y ago
        I don't think it really does to be honest. That's just my personal experience with the site, we're obviously looking through different lenses. I can't agree or disagree with something I'm not aware of.
        meira 10y ago
        You can't see the agenda, but is part of it. An "agenda" don't need to be bad to most people outside the inner circle, which is exactly the case of SV and HN. They "just" want to hold the power and who benefits from the prosperity created.
      - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
        Sure, everyone and every group has a de facto agenda. But the agenda of HN feels to me like "have productive, civil discourse, in a generally pro-technological advancement vein". The agenda of, say, /pol/, is much more directional and polarized (propagating racist and fascist memes, basically, with the broader goal of propagating racism and fascism). There's a much tighter focus and intent to the latter, which makes it feel much more like "an agenda" colloquially, and it seems like a distinction worth noting, rather than eliding it by saying "everyone has an agenda."
- spacewhale 10y ago
  >for the most part, respectful and polite to each other... If someone smart want to sell bullshit here, they will do so in the most respectful and polite manner and the most dangerous part, they will do so by wrapping it up in things that are most appealing to people here. So, say, you want people to give you their money, they will come here and say, give me your money or just talk about me, because the world down here is ending and I will take you to the stars. People everywhere at all times, didn't think twice when someone offered them salvation....You may be smart. But 'people' everywhere, in sufficient quantities, is dumb. This place is no different.
- slantyyz 10y ago
  Overall, HN is pretty good because people here care a lot about facts. If, however, you don't think there are echo chambers here, you might want to look again. The parameters are just different here. The echo chambers here tend to be related to > surprise, surprise < technical stuff, and things can get pretty heated and occasionally mean. Fortunately there is a lot of self-policing here, but on some topics you might notice excessive downvoting of non-inflammatory opinions that simply run counter to what the herd is thinking. People might not care about your gender/religion here, but they do focus on other attributes. I've seen people marginalized or dismissed as not being "real programmers" for using a glossy screen, PHP (not so much now, but PHP debates were really bad a few years ago), etc. On any given day, you'll find some people who think that Microsoft/Google/Facebook/Apple/etc. are crooked and evil and will never change their opinion. On the same note, you'll also find people who think Apple/Tesla/Elon Musk/etc. are infallible. More recently, if you look at the debates over the whether the new Macbook Pro is "pro enough", you'll see a lot of comments to the effect that "it's [not] like that for me, so it must [not] be true for you/everyone else [either]", which is pretty similar to the bubbles people sit in the non-HN world too.
  - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
    Don't forget the vicious anti-JS sentiments that get voted to the top in most threads about JS as a language (they seem to not bother stepping into the discussions about particular JS frameworks/projects, mercifully). Being a dev who mostly works with JS, and happens to enjoy it and think it's a fine language, makes me feel like a closeted Trump voter in HN land. But yea, aside from the tech-centric bubbles and biases, the intellectual climate here is pretty refreshing compared to Reddit, Twitter or FB.
    - reitoei 10y ago
      > the intellectual climate here is pretty refreshing compared to Reddit, Twitter or FB This is what I was trying to say in my original comment. I guess I got a bit too hyperbolic :)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
eponeponepon 10y ago
Can you be sure of that? Can anyone? Might you and I not be the same Markov chain generator without even knowing it?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

api 10y ago

Pop is crap. Always has been, always will be. We now have a pop Internet. I too was optimistic years ago that it might not become crap, but I think we are just seeing the reality here.