5 ms·

Jill Stein to file for recount in three states

51 points by ardit33 10y ago

ardit33 10y ago
Looks like it is going to happen. The fundraising is getting close to its goal and it is over 1.9m, (it was 1.7 just 30 mins ago). https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount
- postcarnival 10y ago
  it will lead nowhere... but civil war would be interesting!
  - rbanffy 10y ago
    A rigged election, a civil war interrupted by a Russian nuclear attack. On the bright side, we'll have time travel soon.
FreeKill 10y ago
To bring this more in line with HackerNews usual content, what do you guys think the chances are that the voting machines will actually show a significant discrepancy from the paper receipts? Will this recount actually involve an audit of the voting machine software at all? I have my doubts the outcome will be significantly changed, but I'd love it if the process involved an auditing of the voting machines, just from a curiosity standpoint...
- rbanffy 10y ago
  I would suggest it be checked, but not expect to find anything depending on the model. It'd look for zeroed out blocks, blocks containing data from other blocks or blocks containing random data where there should be none because this is how I'd erase traces of malware myself. Also look for directories with suspicious deleted entries (because I almost forgot I'd need to rewrite those too to erase any fingerprints).
rubyfan 10y ago
What is this data referenced in the article? FTA: With your help, are raising money to demand recounts in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania-- three states where the data suggests significant discrepancies in vote totals," the page reads.
- dangrossman 10y ago
  > The scientists, among them J. Alex Halderman, the director of the University of Michigan Center for Computer Security and Society, told the Clinton campaign they believe there is a questionable trend of Clinton performing worse in counties that relied on electronic voting machines compared to paper ballots and optical scanners Source: Computer scientists urge Clinton campaign to challenge election results http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/hillary-clinton-challenge-results/ http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/hillary-clinton-chall...
- Hansenq 10y ago
  I believe the original article was here, but poorly substantiated: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/activists-urge-hillary-clinton-to-challenge-election-results.html http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/activists-urge-... But Alex Halderman (the professor mentioned) posted a clarification, saying: "Were this year’s deviations from pre-election polls the results of a cyberattack? Probably not. I believe the most likely explanation is that the polls were systematically wrong, rather than that the election was hacked. But I don’t believe that either one of these seemingly unlikely explanations is overwhelmingly more likely than the other. " https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-was-hacked-look-at-the-ballots-c61a6113b0ba https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-wa...
- ctdean 10y ago
  Here's an indirect pointer to the data from J. Alex Halderman: https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-was-hacked-look-at-the-ballots-c61a6113b0ba#.z68z3h9la https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-wa...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
eknight15 10y ago
"Jill Stein is the friend who ruins your wedding but really shows up for you during the divorce." https://twitter.com/morgan_murphy/status/801589703078187008 https://twitter.com/morgan_murphy/status/801589703078187008
epicureanideal 10y ago
I think if there's reason to believe that votes were miscounted or there was fraud, there should be a recount. But I can't help but notice that the media seemed to hammer Trump about the possibility of not accepting the results of the election. I strongly suspect if he were the one demanding a recount it would be treated very differently. It's disappointing that our society so obviously switches its standards based on someone's in-group or out-group status.
- xapata 10y ago
  Recount is different from rejection of results. It was unclear whether he was anticipating a legal fight or simply planning on ignoring the counts. My guess is that he wanted to lose so that he could focus on making noise and have no responsibility.
  - epicureanideal 10y ago
    Why would anyone put so much time and money into an activity they hope to lose? I think the whole issue was created to make him look bad. "Hey, if you lose, will you accept the results?" After Gore/Bush, I don't know if anybody would immediately say "Yes" without thinking about the possibility of questionable things happening. Would you accept the results of an election with fraud? Until the election happens, you can't have 100% confidence that you won't think there was some fraud. A lot of us here have questions about voting machines, people voting who shouldn't, etc. These are natural concerns that should be Hillary's concerns (as they are now) and not just Trump's. The question was not "Assuming there is iron clad proof of no voter fraud, will you accept the results if you lose?" The answer would almost certainly have been "Yes" in that case. I think all of us on this site are smart enough to assign non-zero probability to the chance that this question was asked WITHOUT the "no voter fraud" disclaimer specifically to elicit the reaction that it got.
    - Avshalom 10y ago
      "I think the whole issue was created to make him look bad." ...He created the issue. He spent weeks/months claiming the system was rigged, the election would be rigged, that the only way he could possibly lose was if he was cheated because he was going to win by such a landslide. He kept calling for people to loiter around polling sites with guns to prevent funny business... That wasn't post-2000 reticence about the preliminary call.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 10y ago
Basically, this is pretty much academic at this point. Hilary would have to gain enough votes to flip all 3 states. Trump will win the recount. However, this will absolutely enrage his base as they see it as an attempt by the elite to steal the election. Trump seems to be moderating on some of his previous stances, but will likely reverse and be even more extreme after he wins a recount. Also, look for pressure on the Senate to completely suspend the filibuster and push through a very right wing Justice. Based on how President Obama and Hilary Clinton are handling this so far, I expect them to intervene to squash any recount and try to make the transition as smooth as possible.
- pvdebbe 10y ago
  I noticed the same, Obama and Hillary both started to act very sportsmanlike right after the results. As is appropriate. It's the media and other factors that seem to hold on to a distant dream they once had.
  - vinay427 10y ago
    What's unsportsmanlike about a recount, especially by a third party candidate that received so few votes? It's not like she's not accepting the results of the election, just challenging the accuracy of the reported results.
    - pvdebbe 10y ago
      I didn't mean Stein, more like meant about all the rioting and the news coverage that tries to paint this grudgy picture.
      - vinay427 10y ago
        Yes, then I misunderstood your comment, and in that case I agree.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  >look for pressure on the Senate to completely suspend the filibuster and push through a very right wing Justice Currently, Republicans hold the Senate (52,R vs 48,D). And, according to Wikipedia: "On November 21, 2013, the Senate voted, in a 52 to 48 vote, to require only a majority vote to end a filibuster of all executive and judicial nominees, excluding Supreme Court nominees, rather than the 3/5 of votes previously required. A 3/5 supermajority is still required to end filibusters on legislation and Supreme Court nominees." So, that is some context for anyone else not up to speed on the specifics.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 10y ago
Looked into this a little more, and I doubt that Jill Stein could even get a recount in Pennsylvania. According to http://billypenn.com/2016/11/23/a-pennsylvania-recount-for-hillary-clinton-a-nightmare-scenario-explained/ http://billypenn.com/2016/11/23/a-pennsylvania-recount-for-h... " A candidate can’t actually file for a vote recount under Pennsylvania law. Instead, they would have to challenge a county board regarding its vote computations, and a state appeals judge would have to rule that a statewide recount is necessary. That means the Clinton campaign would either have to request a recount by petition in every voting district or present a prima facie case showing voter fraud. (Prima facie is a lower threshold than beyond a reasonable doubt. A judge would just have to rule that fraud probably occurred in order to call for a recount.) " While a state judge just possibly might rule for Clinton for a recount, I seriously doubt a judge would do that Jill Stein as she has no realistic chance of winning the state.
rmason 10y ago
They'd be wasting their money in Michigan. The director of the Michigan Bureau of Elections said nothing is connected to the Internet. That's because Michigan is entirely a paper and optical scan state. http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/23/michigan-elections-director-casts-doubt-hacking-claim/94327842/ http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/23/michigan...
cmurf 10y ago
If there's any modern case to be made for the electoral college, it's in these states. If they aren't all effectively faithless voters, then the founding purpose of the college is not true and should be done away with. Instead, it sounds like the faithless voters, should there be any, and if they defect, would vote for some other Republican. So it's not like Hillary would win just because Donald doesn't get enough votes. If the election is questionable, the state legislatures can pick its Electors, and they should. That's what authenticates the process. Of course there needs to be more facts than just speculation there's been tampering or fraud; but the way these systems are designed, they may not have sufficient auditing to determine it, itself a big problem.

51 points by ardit33 10y ago

Looks like it is going to happen. The fundraising is getting close to its goal and it is over 1.9m, (it was 1.7 just 30 mins ago). https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount

postcarnival 10y ago
it will lead nowhere... but civil war would be interesting!
- rbanffy 10y ago
  A rigged election, a civil war interrupted by a Russian nuclear attack. On the bright side, we'll have time travel soon.

FreeKill 10y ago

To bring this more in line with HackerNews usual content, what do you guys think the chances are that the voting machines will actually show a significant discrepancy from the paper receipts? Will this recount actually involve an audit of the voting machine software at all? I have my doubts the outcome will be significantly changed, but I'd love it if the process involved an auditing of the voting machines, just from a curiosity standpoint...

rbanffy 10y ago
I would suggest it be checked, but not expect to find anything depending on the model. It'd look for zeroed out blocks, blocks containing data from other blocks or blocks containing random data where there should be none because this is how I'd erase traces of malware myself. Also look for directories with suspicious deleted entries (because I almost forgot I'd need to rewrite those too to erase any fingerprints).

rubyfan 10y ago

What is this data referenced in the article? FTA: With your help, are raising money to demand recounts in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania-- three states where the data suggests significant discrepancies in vote totals," the page reads.

dangrossman 10y ago
> The scientists, among them J. Alex Halderman, the director of the University of Michigan Center for Computer Security and Society, told the Clinton campaign they believe there is a questionable trend of Clinton performing worse in counties that relied on electronic voting machines compared to paper ballots and optical scanners Source: Computer scientists urge Clinton campaign to challenge election results http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/hillary-clinton-challenge-results/ http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/hillary-clinton-chall...
Hansenq 10y ago
I believe the original article was here, but poorly substantiated: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/activists-urge-hillary-clinton-to-challenge-election-results.html http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/activists-urge-... But Alex Halderman (the professor mentioned) posted a clarification, saying: "Were this year’s deviations from pre-election polls the results of a cyberattack? Probably not. I believe the most likely explanation is that the polls were systematically wrong, rather than that the election was hacked. But I don’t believe that either one of these seemingly unlikely explanations is overwhelmingly more likely than the other. " https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-was-hacked-look-at-the-ballots-c61a6113b0ba https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-wa...
ctdean 10y ago
Here's an indirect pointer to the data from J. Alex Halderman: https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-was-hacked-look-at-the-ballots-c61a6113b0ba#.z68z3h9la https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to-know-if-the-election-wa...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

eknight15 10y ago

"Jill Stein is the friend who ruins your wedding but really shows up for you during the divorce." https://twitter.com/morgan_murphy/status/801589703078187008 https://twitter.com/morgan_murphy/status/801589703078187008

epicureanideal 10y ago

I think if there's reason to believe that votes were miscounted or there was fraud, there should be a recount. But I can't help but notice that the media seemed to hammer Trump about the possibility of not accepting the results of the election. I strongly suspect if he were the one demanding a recount it would be treated very differently. It's disappointing that our society so obviously switches its standards based on someone's in-group or out-group status.

xapata 10y ago
Recount is different from rejection of results. It was unclear whether he was anticipating a legal fight or simply planning on ignoring the counts. My guess is that he wanted to lose so that he could focus on making noise and have no responsibility.
- epicureanideal 10y ago
  Why would anyone put so much time and money into an activity they hope to lose? I think the whole issue was created to make him look bad. "Hey, if you lose, will you accept the results?" After Gore/Bush, I don't know if anybody would immediately say "Yes" without thinking about the possibility of questionable things happening. Would you accept the results of an election with fraud? Until the election happens, you can't have 100% confidence that you won't think there was some fraud. A lot of us here have questions about voting machines, people voting who shouldn't, etc. These are natural concerns that should be Hillary's concerns (as they are now) and not just Trump's. The question was not "Assuming there is iron clad proof of no voter fraud, will you accept the results if you lose?" The answer would almost certainly have been "Yes" in that case. I think all of us on this site are smart enough to assign non-zero probability to the chance that this question was asked WITHOUT the "no voter fraud" disclaimer specifically to elicit the reaction that it got.
  - Avshalom 10y ago
    "I think the whole issue was created to make him look bad." ...He created the issue. He spent weeks/months claiming the system was rigged, the election would be rigged, that the only way he could possibly lose was if he was cheated because he was going to win by such a landslide. He kept calling for people to loiter around polling sites with guns to prevent funny business... That wasn't post-2000 reticence about the preliminary call.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 10y ago

Basically, this is pretty much academic at this point. Hilary would have to gain enough votes to flip all 3 states. Trump will win the recount. However, this will absolutely enrage his base as they see it as an attempt by the elite to steal the election. Trump seems to be moderating on some of his previous stances, but will likely reverse and be even more extreme after he wins a recount. Also, look for pressure on the Senate to completely suspend the filibuster and push through a very right wing Justice. Based on how President Obama and Hilary Clinton are handling this so far, I expect them to intervene to squash any recount and try to make the transition as smooth as possible.

pvdebbe 10y ago
I noticed the same, Obama and Hillary both started to act very sportsmanlike right after the results. As is appropriate. It's the media and other factors that seem to hold on to a distant dream they once had.
- vinay427 10y ago
  What's unsportsmanlike about a recount, especially by a third party candidate that received so few votes? It's not like she's not accepting the results of the election, just challenging the accuracy of the reported results.
  - pvdebbe 10y ago
    I didn't mean Stein, more like meant about all the rioting and the news coverage that tries to paint this grudgy picture.
    - vinay427 10y ago
      Yes, then I misunderstood your comment, and in that case I agree.
narrowrail 10y ago
>look for pressure on the Senate to completely suspend the filibuster and push through a very right wing Justice Currently, Republicans hold the Senate (52,R vs 48,D). And, according to Wikipedia: "On November 21, 2013, the Senate voted, in a 52 to 48 vote, to require only a majority vote to end a filibuster of all executive and judicial nominees, excluding Supreme Court nominees, rather than the 3/5 of votes previously required. A 3/5 supermajority is still required to end filibusters on legislation and Supreme Court nominees." So, that is some context for anyone else not up to speed on the specifics.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 10y ago

Looked into this a little more, and I doubt that Jill Stein could even get a recount in Pennsylvania. According to http://billypenn.com/2016/11/23/a-pennsylvania-recount-for-hillary-clinton-a-nightmare-scenario-explained/ http://billypenn.com/2016/11/23/a-pennsylvania-recount-for-h... " A candidate can’t actually file for a vote recount under Pennsylvania law. Instead, they would have to challenge a county board regarding its vote computations, and a state appeals judge would have to rule that a statewide recount is necessary. That means the Clinton campaign would either have to request a recount by petition in every voting district or present a prima facie case showing voter fraud. (Prima facie is a lower threshold than beyond a reasonable doubt. A judge would just have to rule that fraud probably occurred in order to call for a recount.) " While a state judge just possibly might rule for Clinton for a recount, I seriously doubt a judge would do that Jill Stein as she has no realistic chance of winning the state.

rmason 10y ago

They'd be wasting their money in Michigan. The director of the Michigan Bureau of Elections said nothing is connected to the Internet. That's because Michigan is entirely a paper and optical scan state. http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/23/michigan-elections-director-casts-doubt-hacking-claim/94327842/ http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/23/michigan...

cmurf 10y ago

If there's any modern case to be made for the electoral college, it's in these states. If they aren't all effectively faithless voters, then the founding purpose of the college is not true and should be done away with. Instead, it sounds like the faithless voters, should there be any, and if they defect, would vote for some other Republican. So it's not like Hillary would win just because Donald doesn't get enough votes. If the election is questionable, the state legislatures can pick its Electors, and they should. That's what authenticates the process. Of course there needs to be more facts than just speculation there's been tampering or fraud; but the way these systems are designed, they may not have sufficient auditing to determine it, itself a big problem.