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A censored [favorite service] with state surveillance is better than no [favorite service] is the new normal. Really? It's kind of depressing to see where the

by anondon 10y ago

A censored [favorite service] with state surveillance is better than no [favorite service] is the new normal. Really? It's kind of depressing to see where the world is going,, where the world bends to the will of state actors eventually. Given a long enough timeframe any draconian law can be made the new normal and I think that is what is happening. It's also sad to see the internet become a tool to control entire populations and have them see and experience the world in a way that is convenient for state actors. And every effort to circumvent state control gets regulated before going mainstream. Eg- Look at Bitcoin, the calls for KYC norms, asking customer data. Another example is Tor, numerous attempts to unmask users.

notliketherest 10y ago
Well people do have a choice. But most people don't know how or don't care. That's the real problem.
- gscott 10y ago
  The people in China do not really have a choice. Those that disagree or hold a contrary opinion disappear, are held under house arrest, or go on a show trial. Even if you agree 100% with the State but you have a faith or a belief system then you are harassed.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
brianwawok 10y ago
How do you propose we change the laws in China? Lead a revolution?
gnaritas 10y ago
You've got it a bit backwards, the state is in control, always has been; the world isn't going that way, it's been that way. The Internet is not immune to laws or nations. > And every effort to circumvent state control gets regulated before going mainstream. So efforts to break laws are circumvented by the state who's laws are being broken, hardly surprising or unusual. This is what's expected to happen.
arcticfox 10y ago
Curious: what's the best social media option at the moment against this? Maybe something like Telegram's new Telegraph?
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  What is social media ? Best option relative to what ? Without any details, I'd say the best social media option is going out with friends for a walk or a chat or alternatively traveling on your own in a foreign country for an extended period of time.
olalonde 10y ago
> A censored [favorite service] with state surveillance is better than no [favorite service] is the new normal. Really? This is nothing new, it's been going on for a very long time in China and not part of some new global trend. Also, I do think that in China, a "censored [favorite service] with state surveillance is better than no [favorite service]" and so do nearly all the Chinese. Otherwise, by reductio ad absurdum, you'd be forced to conclude that China would be better off without the Internet. This has nothing to do with endorsing censorship/surveillance by the way.
- 50CNT 10y ago
  Honestly, living in China, this might just be more convenient. It's not like my newsfeed is a particularly great source of news, I mostly use FB to keep in touch with friends abroad. Chinese revolutionaries already know how to circumvent these things on Chinese messaging platforms. They'll just come up with a new set of codewords.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  China's isolation is the responsibility of its government. Chinese citizens should expect their government to change to allow them access to foreign resources. They should not demand that foreign companies change for China, as China's rules are diametrically opposed to the essential values of other countries.
  - otaviokz 10y ago
    They should be smarter and do like our governments in the "West" do, just brainwash their own citizens enough so they don't even care for external content/data.
  - throwaway7312 10y ago
    There's a lot of 'should's there. Whether China should or should not demand foreign companies change for China is irrelevant. China does demand it... And foreign companies do change.
    - 10y ago
wallace_f 10y ago
>It's kind of depressing to see where the world is going,, where the world bends to the will of state actors eventually. Given a long enough timeframe any draconian law can be made the new normal and I think that is what is happening. >It's also sad to see the internet become a tool to control entire populations and have them see and experience the world in a way that is convenient for state actors. And every effort to circumvent state control gets regulated before going mainstream. Eg- Look at Bitcoin, the calls for KYC norms, asking customer data. Another example is Tor, numerous attempts to unmask users. I agree, and I have a question. What do you tell people when you don't use Facebook? I don't feel like supporting this, but is there a good way to sum this up for people that are non-informed (shit does that sound pretentious? Trying to think of a better way to put it. I think most people would not approve of Facebook and this associated trend you discuss, if they knew more about it)?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- brownbat 10y ago
  > What do you tell people when you don't use Facebook? There are so many options. * It's not 2006 anymore. * That whole privacy thing, never can tell what they're doing with your data. * I was creeped out when I saw a friend's face endorsing a product on a third party website thanks to FB. I couldn't be sure what my face was selling, so I dropped out. * It's just gated internet, like AOL all over again. (Hat tip, Cringely.) * People get addicted to FB, it's good to cut loose and experience the offline world every now and again, force real interactions. * I think X social network is better. * I'm a hipster / It's too popular. * All my best friends use X instead. * My whole family is on it. * My whole family is not on it. * Kept having fights with relatives. * Spent too much time on it. * Someone stole/hacked/forged my account once, it was a big hassle, so I've just stayed away. * I stand with Native Americans / LGBT users / victims of abuse in protest of FB's true name policy. * Facebook banned me after I [insert amusing story here]. * I don't want to upset Cameron Winklevoss.
  - odammit 10y ago
    I was on a first date and my date asked if I had a facebook. I said no (I didn't) and we she asked why. I said, "because I could give a shit less" (or something equally as cool). She said it was "creepy" that I didn't have one and that I must be hiding something. SMH. I was hiding something, my privacy. Now I use facebook and I'm a dopamine junkie looping hamster.
pizza 10y ago
Every tool that accelerates information acquisition will accelerate state policy, even if that includes censorship. That the internet is being used for this isn't new - this year alone in Turkey President Erdogan encouraged masses to suppress the attempted coup. If you pick out any (one/many)-to-(one/many) broadcasting technology, and I'll point you to a historical atrocity that used it.
rwmj 10y ago
I think he means "me making money out of censored Facebook is better than some other guy making money out of censored WeChat".

by anondon 10y ago

notliketherest 10y ago

Well people do have a choice. But most people don't know how or don't care. That's the real problem.

gscott 10y ago
The people in China do not really have a choice. Those that disagree or hold a contrary opinion disappear, are held under house arrest, or go on a show trial. Even if you agree 100% with the State but you have a faith or a belief system then you are harassed.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

brianwawok 10y ago

How do you propose we change the laws in China? Lead a revolution?

gnaritas 10y ago

You've got it a bit backwards, the state is in control, always has been; the world isn't going that way, it's been that way. The Internet is not immune to laws or nations. > And every effort to circumvent state control gets regulated before going mainstream. So efforts to break laws are circumvented by the state who's laws are being broken, hardly surprising or unusual. This is what's expected to happen.

arcticfox 10y ago

Curious: what's the best social media option at the moment against this? Maybe something like Telegram's new Telegraph?

bigbugbag 10y ago
What is social media ? Best option relative to what ? Without any details, I'd say the best social media option is going out with friends for a walk or a chat or alternatively traveling on your own in a foreign country for an extended period of time.

olalonde 10y ago

> A censored [favorite service] with state surveillance is better than no [favorite service] is the new normal. Really? This is nothing new, it's been going on for a very long time in China and not part of some new global trend. Also, I do think that in China, a "censored [favorite service] with state surveillance is better than no [favorite service]" and so do nearly all the Chinese. Otherwise, by reductio ad absurdum, you'd be forced to conclude that China would be better off without the Internet. This has nothing to do with endorsing censorship/surveillance by the way.

50CNT 10y ago
Honestly, living in China, this might just be more convenient. It's not like my newsfeed is a particularly great source of news, I mostly use FB to keep in touch with friends abroad. Chinese revolutionaries already know how to circumvent these things on Chinese messaging platforms. They'll just come up with a new set of codewords.
nitrogen 10y ago
China's isolation is the responsibility of its government. Chinese citizens should expect their government to change to allow them access to foreign resources. They should not demand that foreign companies change for China, as China's rules are diametrically opposed to the essential values of other countries.
- otaviokz 10y ago
  They should be smarter and do like our governments in the "West" do, just brainwash their own citizens enough so they don't even care for external content/data.
- throwaway7312 10y ago
  There's a lot of 'should's there. Whether China should or should not demand foreign companies change for China is irrelevant. China does demand it... And foreign companies do change.
  - 10y ago

wallace_f 10y ago

>It's kind of depressing to see where the world is going,, where the world bends to the will of state actors eventually. Given a long enough timeframe any draconian law can be made the new normal and I think that is what is happening. >It's also sad to see the internet become a tool to control entire populations and have them see and experience the world in a way that is convenient for state actors. And every effort to circumvent state control gets regulated before going mainstream. Eg- Look at Bitcoin, the calls for KYC norms, asking customer data. Another example is Tor, numerous attempts to unmask users. I agree, and I have a question. What do you tell people when you don't use Facebook? I don't feel like supporting this, but is there a good way to sum this up for people that are non-informed (shit does that sound pretentious? Trying to think of a better way to put it. I think most people would not approve of Facebook and this associated trend you discuss, if they knew more about it)?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
brownbat 10y ago
> What do you tell people when you don't use Facebook? There are so many options. * It's not 2006 anymore. * That whole privacy thing, never can tell what they're doing with your data. * I was creeped out when I saw a friend's face endorsing a product on a third party website thanks to FB. I couldn't be sure what my face was selling, so I dropped out. * It's just gated internet, like AOL all over again. (Hat tip, Cringely.) * People get addicted to FB, it's good to cut loose and experience the offline world every now and again, force real interactions. * I think X social network is better. * I'm a hipster / It's too popular. * All my best friends use X instead. * My whole family is on it. * My whole family is not on it. * Kept having fights with relatives. * Spent too much time on it. * Someone stole/hacked/forged my account once, it was a big hassle, so I've just stayed away. * I stand with Native Americans / LGBT users / victims of abuse in protest of FB's true name policy. * Facebook banned me after I [insert amusing story here]. * I don't want to upset Cameron Winklevoss.
- odammit 10y ago
  I was on a first date and my date asked if I had a facebook. I said no (I didn't) and we she asked why. I said, "because I could give a shit less" (or something equally as cool). She said it was "creepy" that I didn't have one and that I must be hiding something. SMH. I was hiding something, my privacy. Now I use facebook and I'm a dopamine junkie looping hamster.

pizza 10y ago

Every tool that accelerates information acquisition will accelerate state policy, even if that includes censorship. That the internet is being used for this isn't new - this year alone in Turkey President Erdogan encouraged masses to suppress the attempted coup. If you pick out any (one/many)-to-(one/many) broadcasting technology, and I'll point you to a historical atrocity that used it.

rwmj 10y ago

I think he means "me making money out of censored Facebook is better than some other guy making money out of censored WeChat".