5 ms·

"It’s better for Facebook to be a part of enabling conversation, even if it's not yet the full conversation," Mr. Zuckerberg said, according to employees. Larr

"It’s better for Facebook to be a part of enabling conversation, even if it's not yet the full conversation," Mr. Zuckerberg said, according to employees. Larry Page (or, Eric Schmidt?) made a similar comment, before Google closed China office after Chinese officials were found to be monitoring dissidents through their internal tools, that censored Google is better than no Google.

dorianm 10y ago
Probably Eric Schmidt because he was the only one who wanted to stay in China after the censorship (in How Google Works, he explains it in details: https://www.amazon.com/How-Google-Works-Eric-Schmidt/dp/1455582344 https://www.amazon.com/How-Google-Works-Eric-Schmidt/dp/1455...)
Zarel 10y ago
> Larry Page (or, Eric Schmidt?) made a similar comment, before Google closed China office For the record, I agreed with Google that a censored Google was better than no Google, and one of my biggest frustrations at the time was that sanctimonious Americans seemed to think they knew better than me, someone who would actually lose access to Google if they pulled out of China. Google would tell me if search results were censored, and wouldn't shut down my internet for a few hours if I accidentally typed the wrong thing, which was much much better than anything else I had access to. Then Google did pull out of China and it did suck and meanwhile Americans celebrated it because it didn't affect them at all. Ugh. > after Chinese officials were found to be monitoring dissidents through their internal tools Google pulled out of China because Gmail got hacked and Google assumed the hackers were affiliated with the Chinese government. I think the evidence pointed in that direction but wasn't conclusive, but either way, I haven't heard anything about monitoring dissidents through internal tools. Anyway, I feel the same way about Facebook. It'd be nice to be able to access Facebook and talk to my friends while in China, and having censored communication is better than nothing.
- dvcrn 10y ago
  > and wouldn't shut down my internet for a few hours if I accidentally typed the wrong thing that is actually happening?
  - snnn 10y ago
    Not shutdown his internet, shutdown his connection to Google for a while. In that time, he can still use Yahoo,Bing,Baidu...
  - Zarel 10y ago
    Well, that was way back in I think around 2005? So I don't remember it too clearly. But I remember a few times where I suddenly lost internet and the people around me said "oh, you probably tried to go to a site you're not allowed to, it'll come back in an hourish." I haven't had that experience more recently, but I think that's partially because HTTPS is everywhere these days and partially because I use VPNs a lot more because I do need that Google/Facebook access.
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
    It would basically put you in a penalty box if you searched for the wrong thing, with your internet not working very well for a couple of minutes. I'm not sure how they did it, but it was a real thing. It doesn't really happen very much anymore, but mainly because most sites moved to https and can only be blocked completely ATM.
- orf 10y ago
  It knew the hackers where the Chinese government. And they where. What other highly skilled state sponsored attackers would break into Google China to steal information about people the Chinese government deemed dissidents?
- 75j 10y ago
  > Google pulled out of China because Gmail got hacked and Google assumed the hackers were affiliated with the Chinese government. Then it seems pulling out was the right move. If Chinese citizens trusted that Google could secure their communications, and Google was then unable to, that put certain citizens at risk of persecution. Better to have them using a Chinese email provider where the default assumption is that everything is monitored, and then use the proper tools for actual private communication.
  - clusmore 10y ago
    By this logic, should they pull out of the US too because Google (and Facebook both) has been completely pwned by the US government? Not meaning to be snide.
    - 75j 10y ago
      Not snide at all, and I agree.
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
    Gmail was never hosted in china. When Google pulled out, it meant shitting down the china local search engine, with the one through HK eventually being blocked. Gmail wasn't even blocked in china until a couple of years ago.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  As an American who was living in china at the time, yes, it was inconvenient, but at the same time I think they made the right stand. You can already get a western harmonious search engine in Bing, anyways, and I preferred google's course of action to Microsoft's (my employer at the time). I don't think American companies have morally good reason to be complicit in Chinese censorship, but I understand why they play along, even if I personally don't agree.
  - Zarel 10y ago
    I don't want Bing, though, I want Google. Ignoring the whole hacking incident, does Google pulling out of China actually improve the world in some way? I think "giving customers as much of what they want as possible" is a morally good reason. On the other hand, I don't see any morally good reason for them to pull out of China, other than holier-than-thou moralizing?
    - fma 10y ago
      Google is a public, profit making company. Can't really believe the "Do no evil" mantra. It was a financial decision to pull out. They were losing ground to Baidu and this allowed them to save face. It's like how Google shuts down every other product - it's not making profit.
      - panarky 10y ago
        You can make a profit and do the right thing. Sometimes doing the right thing actually helps you make more profit. I'd guess that withdrawing from China was a net loser for Google overall, but in my case it strengthened my brand loyalty to Google.
        seanmcdirmid 10y ago
        Even if they stayed, they wouldn't have been allowed to win or are much business there. Baidu was the sanctioned champion, and had huge unfair advantages given them by the government (e.g. They were allowed to index lots of porn). It wasn't really a net loss given what we know today about China's protective policies.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  It'd be nice to be able to access Facebook and talk to my friends while in China, and having censored communication is better than nothing. Thanks very much for sharing your perspective. My concern is that -- if we don't draw the line somewhere -- the U.S. will (continue to) become more like China in this regard, over time. A state of affairs which I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg will be perfectly willing to accomodate, and work with.
snnn 10y ago
Yahoo closed their Beijing office but Google never did it. Google has 100+ engineers in Beijing and Shanghai. Google also has a lot of servers in Beijing, to serve dl.google.com etc.
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
Note, google didn't close down their office, they just shutdown operations. There were and are still engineers and sales people employed in china, and specifically the wudaokou headquarters.
panarky 10y ago
Recall that even when Google was censoring, they displayed a prominent message on each page showing that results were removed by government diktat. But even that went against Google's ethics, so rather than comply with the censorship regime, they withdrew from the market. Will Facebook prominently disclose when posts are censored?

dorianm 10y ago

Probably Eric Schmidt because he was the only one who wanted to stay in China after the censorship (in How Google Works, he explains it in details: https://www.amazon.com/How-Google-Works-Eric-Schmidt/dp/1455582344 https://www.amazon.com/How-Google-Works-Eric-Schmidt/dp/1455...)

Zarel 10y ago

> Larry Page (or, Eric Schmidt?) made a similar comment, before Google closed China office For the record, I agreed with Google that a censored Google was better than no Google, and one of my biggest frustrations at the time was that sanctimonious Americans seemed to think they knew better than me, someone who would actually lose access to Google if they pulled out of China. Google would tell me if search results were censored, and wouldn't shut down my internet for a few hours if I accidentally typed the wrong thing, which was much much better than anything else I had access to. Then Google did pull out of China and it did suck and meanwhile Americans celebrated it because it didn't affect them at all. Ugh. > after Chinese officials were found to be monitoring dissidents through their internal tools Google pulled out of China because Gmail got hacked and Google assumed the hackers were affiliated with the Chinese government. I think the evidence pointed in that direction but wasn't conclusive, but either way, I haven't heard anything about monitoring dissidents through internal tools. Anyway, I feel the same way about Facebook. It'd be nice to be able to access Facebook and talk to my friends while in China, and having censored communication is better than nothing.

dvcrn 10y ago
> and wouldn't shut down my internet for a few hours if I accidentally typed the wrong thing that is actually happening?
- snnn 10y ago
  Not shutdown his internet, shutdown his connection to Google for a while. In that time, he can still use Yahoo,Bing,Baidu...
- Zarel 10y ago
  Well, that was way back in I think around 2005? So I don't remember it too clearly. But I remember a few times where I suddenly lost internet and the people around me said "oh, you probably tried to go to a site you're not allowed to, it'll come back in an hourish." I haven't had that experience more recently, but I think that's partially because HTTPS is everywhere these days and partially because I use VPNs a lot more because I do need that Google/Facebook access.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  It would basically put you in a penalty box if you searched for the wrong thing, with your internet not working very well for a couple of minutes. I'm not sure how they did it, but it was a real thing. It doesn't really happen very much anymore, but mainly because most sites moved to https and can only be blocked completely ATM.
orf 10y ago
It knew the hackers where the Chinese government. And they where. What other highly skilled state sponsored attackers would break into Google China to steal information about people the Chinese government deemed dissidents?
75j 10y ago
> Google pulled out of China because Gmail got hacked and Google assumed the hackers were affiliated with the Chinese government. Then it seems pulling out was the right move. If Chinese citizens trusted that Google could secure their communications, and Google was then unable to, that put certain citizens at risk of persecution. Better to have them using a Chinese email provider where the default assumption is that everything is monitored, and then use the proper tools for actual private communication.
- clusmore 10y ago
  By this logic, should they pull out of the US too because Google (and Facebook both) has been completely pwned by the US government? Not meaning to be snide.
  - 75j 10y ago
    Not snide at all, and I agree.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Gmail was never hosted in china. When Google pulled out, it meant shitting down the china local search engine, with the one through HK eventually being blocked. Gmail wasn't even blocked in china until a couple of years ago.
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
As an American who was living in china at the time, yes, it was inconvenient, but at the same time I think they made the right stand. You can already get a western harmonious search engine in Bing, anyways, and I preferred google's course of action to Microsoft's (my employer at the time). I don't think American companies have morally good reason to be complicit in Chinese censorship, but I understand why they play along, even if I personally don't agree.
- Zarel 10y ago
  I don't want Bing, though, I want Google. Ignoring the whole hacking incident, does Google pulling out of China actually improve the world in some way? I think "giving customers as much of what they want as possible" is a morally good reason. On the other hand, I don't see any morally good reason for them to pull out of China, other than holier-than-thou moralizing?
  - fma 10y ago
    Google is a public, profit making company. Can't really believe the "Do no evil" mantra. It was a financial decision to pull out. They were losing ground to Baidu and this allowed them to save face. It's like how Google shuts down every other product - it's not making profit.
    - panarky 10y ago
      You can make a profit and do the right thing. Sometimes doing the right thing actually helps you make more profit. I'd guess that withdrawing from China was a net loser for Google overall, but in my case it strengthened my brand loyalty to Google.
      - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
        Even if they stayed, they wouldn't have been allowed to win or are much business there. Baidu was the sanctioned champion, and had huge unfair advantages given them by the government (e.g. They were allowed to index lots of porn). It wasn't really a net loss given what we know today about China's protective policies.
kafkaesq 10y ago
It'd be nice to be able to access Facebook and talk to my friends while in China, and having censored communication is better than nothing. Thanks very much for sharing your perspective. My concern is that -- if we don't draw the line somewhere -- the U.S. will (continue to) become more like China in this regard, over time. A state of affairs which I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg will be perfectly willing to accomodate, and work with.

snnn 10y ago

Yahoo closed their Beijing office but Google never did it. Google has 100+ engineers in Beijing and Shanghai. Google also has a lot of servers in Beijing, to serve dl.google.com etc.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago

Note, google didn't close down their office, they just shutdown operations. There were and are still engineers and sales people employed in china, and specifically the wudaokou headquarters.

panarky 10y ago

Recall that even when Google was censoring, they displayed a prominent message on each page showing that results were removed by government diktat. But even that went against Google's ethics, so rather than comply with the censorship regime, they withdrew from the market. Will Facebook prominently disclose when posts are censored?