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> The European Commission is right about investigating how Google is doing business lately. Why is it right? Nobody forces people to buy Android phones

by elcct 10y ago

digi_owl 10y ago
The basic problem is that all this leave AOSP as less than a full device OS, because Google has put so much of it into Play Services. Never mind that to be able to bundle Play OEMs need to adhere to the requirements Google put forth in the CDD. And part of that requirement is that Google services apps are front and center when a new user boot up "their" device.
adtac 10y ago
See, this is what I've never been able to understand. If you buy a camera and put it somewhere, would you complain that it's always recording you? Google's product is this - helping you as much as possible in your daily activities. This obviously wouldn't be possible without user tracking. So I never understand those who buy Google's phones and then complain about the tracking the same time.
- tdkl 10y ago
  Google phones are Nexus and Pixel series and I'm willing to bet those aren't the majority sold. Data collection happens nevertheless the device.
- sp332 10y ago
  If I buy a camera and it sends video of me to someone else all the time... yes.
- tombrossman 10y ago
  I think Google's 'product' is their ability to demonstrate to advertisers Google's ability to manipulate users more effectively than their competitors can. To accomplish this, tracking is necessary. Any 'help' they provide you is purely incidental. If the data showed it was more effective to mislead users, they would be obliged to do that and ensure maximum value to shareholders. Look at the fake news controversy Facebook is dealing with. Fake news generated more page views and was more profitable, so that's what everyone pushed. What I'd love to see is a service doing some or all of the tracking and data storage on the end user's device, with relevant data being matched and pushed to anonymous users algorithmically. Easier said than done I concede, but that's what I want. I'm happy to pay for such a useful service and I strongly prefer this to trading personal info.
tdkl 10y ago
Nobody forced them to buy Windows computers either. Directly. It's just the network effect and the market who do.
crc32 10y ago
Consumers are not omniscient, and in my view should be able to pay (through taxes) to pre-vet products. I think a good way of thinking about this is food laws - i am happy to pay for enforcement of laws that make sure when i buy beef it is not, in fact, horse meat, rather than having to carry round a testing kit or rely on reputation/brand etc. Occasionally some work might be required to check new technologies are applied in a constructive way, e.g. that a new bleach used to whiten bread is safe. Oh yes, and also there is a power imbalance between the individual consumer and corporations/market forces. Think of regulatory bodies as a "consumers union". Would it be possible to organise efficiently without the force of government?
- elcct 10y ago
  I see your point, but this will lead to uncontrollable growth of civil servant class and effectively will inhibit any growth, plus as a side effect you'll get people not aware that one should use so called common sense. I can agree that such laws should exist for things directly responsible for someone's health, but that should end there. Power imbalance exists largely because of the regulations that are significantly increasing the barrier of entry for the new players. More regulation will make this problem worse.
  - Daishiman 10y ago
    > Power imbalance exists largely because of the regulations that are significantly increasing the barrier of entry for the new players. More regulation will make this problem worse. Markets and the nature of economies of scale create barriers to entry. They are a normal entity of any economic system. The "free market" only alleviates situations in which there is small added value in being an entrenched player, something which just doesn't happen in many situations and which disregards network effects and established knowledge in specific industries. What "common sense" do you expect people to have for mobile tech? 99% of people do not and should not have to know what Google Play Services is, in the same way that you probably lack knowledge of things many doctors would tell you should be "common sense", or lawyers, or accountants. It is absolutely acceptable that there should be people on the lookout for these basic privacy issues.
  - 10y ago

> The European Commission is right about investigating how Google is doing business lately. Why is it right? Nobody forces people to buy Android phones

by elcct 10y ago

> The European Commission is right about investigating how Google is doing business lately. Why is it right? Nobody forces people to buy Android phones

digi_owl 10y ago

The basic problem is that all this leave AOSP as less than a full device OS, because Google has put so much of it into Play Services. Never mind that to be able to bundle Play OEMs need to adhere to the requirements Google put forth in the CDD. And part of that requirement is that Google services apps are front and center when a new user boot up "their" device.

adtac 10y ago

See, this is what I've never been able to understand. If you buy a camera and put it somewhere, would you complain that it's always recording you? Google's product is this - helping you as much as possible in your daily activities. This obviously wouldn't be possible without user tracking. So I never understand those who buy Google's phones and then complain about the tracking the same time.

tdkl 10y ago
Google phones are Nexus and Pixel series and I'm willing to bet those aren't the majority sold. Data collection happens nevertheless the device.
sp332 10y ago
If I buy a camera and it sends video of me to someone else all the time... yes.
tombrossman 10y ago
I think Google's 'product' is their ability to demonstrate to advertisers Google's ability to manipulate users more effectively than their competitors can. To accomplish this, tracking is necessary. Any 'help' they provide you is purely incidental. If the data showed it was more effective to mislead users, they would be obliged to do that and ensure maximum value to shareholders. Look at the fake news controversy Facebook is dealing with. Fake news generated more page views and was more profitable, so that's what everyone pushed. What I'd love to see is a service doing some or all of the tracking and data storage on the end user's device, with relevant data being matched and pushed to anonymous users algorithmically. Easier said than done I concede, but that's what I want. I'm happy to pay for such a useful service and I strongly prefer this to trading personal info.

tdkl 10y ago

Nobody forced them to buy Windows computers either. Directly. It's just the network effect and the market who do.

crc32 10y ago

Consumers are not omniscient, and in my view should be able to pay (through taxes) to pre-vet products. I think a good way of thinking about this is food laws - i am happy to pay for enforcement of laws that make sure when i buy beef it is not, in fact, horse meat, rather than having to carry round a testing kit or rely on reputation/brand etc. Occasionally some work might be required to check new technologies are applied in a constructive way, e.g. that a new bleach used to whiten bread is safe. Oh yes, and also there is a power imbalance between the individual consumer and corporations/market forces. Think of regulatory bodies as a "consumers union". Would it be possible to organise efficiently without the force of government?

elcct 10y ago
I see your point, but this will lead to uncontrollable growth of civil servant class and effectively will inhibit any growth, plus as a side effect you'll get people not aware that one should use so called common sense. I can agree that such laws should exist for things directly responsible for someone's health, but that should end there. Power imbalance exists largely because of the regulations that are significantly increasing the barrier of entry for the new players. More regulation will make this problem worse.
- Daishiman 10y ago
  > Power imbalance exists largely because of the regulations that are significantly increasing the barrier of entry for the new players. More regulation will make this problem worse. Markets and the nature of economies of scale create barriers to entry. They are a normal entity of any economic system. The "free market" only alleviates situations in which there is small added value in being an entrenched player, something which just doesn't happen in many situations and which disregards network effects and established knowledge in specific industries. What "common sense" do you expect people to have for mobile tech? 99% of people do not and should not have to know what Google Play Services is, in the same way that you probably lack knowledge of things many doctors would tell you should be "common sense", or lawyers, or accountants. It is absolutely acceptable that there should be people on the lookout for these basic privacy issues.
- 10y ago