4 ms·

Great info. I'm especially eager to see the national identities diminishing greatly. They're as bad as religion.

by StijinM 10y ago

return0 10y ago
They are trying to do that with personal identity politics. I dont see that going well either
rayiner 10y ago
When people give up national identity, they replace it with other kinds of group identities. Those replacements aren't necessarily better. Query what the dissolution of national identity does to the modern welfare state. Can we maintain that when people feel more allegiance to their social class or profession than to their countrymen? My family emigrated away from the sub-continent, which has a deep-seated culture of elevating class bonds above national ones. And in places like India you see wealthy people living in enclaves treating the working class around them like a different species. I'm frightened that a decline of nationalism and populism in the US could see a move in the same direction.
- eeZah7Ux 10y ago
  > decline of nationalism and populism in the US Did you just put nationalism in a good light by comparing it with classism? First of all, the two are not necessarily opposed and often go together. Also this is a false dilemma. Humans can live without a group identity or identify as living beings instead of being a "proud $skin_color $religion $nationality $gender". It's not far-fetched to say that this could prevent a lot of social conflicts and wars. Can someone prove me wrong?
  - rayiner 10y ago
    I don't think human beings can live without group identity. I grew up in a DC suburb full of "open minded" cosmopolitan people. Group identity, along economic, political, and educational lines, was intense. People were vicious in demeaning "the dumb uneducated rednecks that live in flyover country." Group identity was asserted by having the right education, belonging to the right political party, having the right profession and aspirations. Human beings are fundamentally social creatures. Consider the ritual of meeting someone for the first time. People grill each other trying to figure out what they have in common. "Oh, how do you know $PARTY_HOST?" Oh, are you from Chicago too? How about the Cubs this year, huh?"
    - olalonde 10y ago
      That used to be a common argument against atheism but I think it's been largely debunked over time (e.g. people can live without religion and won't necessarily replace it with something worse). There's also a distinction to be made between voluntary association through shared interests (e.g. on Hacker News) versus a largely irrational allegiance towards a nation state (which is not usually a deliberate decision but a product of the birth lottery). I do agree that the modern welfare state would likely be difficult to maintain without national identity.
      - harryh 10y ago
        A pretty big percentage of atheists have replaced religion with environmentalism. The narrative is basically the same: We used to live in paradise but then man was corrupted and if we don't repent fast enough we'll be doomed to eternal damnation.
        SilasX 10y ago
        And to extend the analogy, they're deeply offended at technological solutions to things that could be solved with self control. "Birth control? Just stop having sex when you don't want a kid." "Carbon sequestration? Just stop being so wasteful."
        sctb 10y ago
        Arguments are easy when you can place whatever concepts you like in another's head, but we ask that comments stay civil and substantive on Hacker News. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        harryh 10y ago
        Sorry, didn't mean to cross a line!
        olalonde 10y ago
  - jerf 10y ago
    'Humans can live without a group identity or identify as living beings instead of being a "proud $skin_color $religion $nationality $gender".' I think you may wish that was the case, but the evidence for this is rather lacking. Even the people who think they identify that way actually identify as people who identify that way and freely indulge in "othering" the people who choose a different identity basis.
- gutnor 10y ago
  On the other hand, in a context of globilization, nationalism and populism is performing very poorly. The rich people and most importantly rich companies are basically a class on their own and their look after themselves on global scale. Their profit and their power is distributed. Nationalism however stop at the border allowing larger than country entities to play a social race to the bottom between different countries. Everyday the fraction of wealth that is stuck by borders diminishes meaning regardless how much solidarity you have for your countrymen the pot of national money is getting smaller. Not that I have a solution and I don't really disagree with you or agree to GP. Just some counter example: Socialism that looked after working class across all of Europe did shape the social fabric of Europe and is arguably better than the US version. Nationalism, as in the case of Brexit or in France, Austria, Belgium, Holland is difficult to see in a positive light. Sure all those movement do the talk about caring for the little man but their policies are all clearly on the dismantling of the welfare state, not strengthening it.
- GrinningFool 10y ago
  > And in places like India you see wealthy people living in enclaves treating the working class around them like a different species. I'm frightened that a decline of nationalism and populism in the US could see a move in the same direction. We're already there, we just don't yet see it for what it is. Yesterday I watched a man on the phone while paying for his goods at a convenience store. The cashier spoke to him several times, he completely ignored her in favor of his phone. He made no sign of apology, it was literally like she wasn't there for him. And of course, she had to keep smiling because that is her place as a customer service provider. It would be one thing if this were isolated, but (anecdotally, of course) I only see it increasing. We're already at that point where some, at least, fail to consider the working class around them at all.
  - ghufran_syed 10y ago
    Or maybe he was reading a text message about the death of a family member? Extrapolating from almost zero data usually isn't helpful, and probably often ends up being an opportunity to reinforce our own biases.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      This kind of thing happens constantly. They're not all receiving dire news. They're just oblivious.
    - GrinningFool 10y ago
      In this case he was speaking on the phone , and that wasn't the subject matter in question. I k ow this because he was also speaking as if he were in his private office. Certainly it's possible that some of the situations I've seen are of that type of origin - but IMO if you're interacting with a live human it's not an excuse. "I'm sorry , I just got terrible news" takes about two seconds to say. I don't know, I see very little that could excuse the behavior. If someone is able to get into the store and conduct a transaction, then that person is generally able to acknowledge the person assisting him or her on a minimal level as a human.
      - 10y ago
maehwasu 10y ago
It's really easy to see the negatives of things, but harder to see the positives. My gut reaction to national identity is "gross", but having seen the alternatives (personal identity politics), I'm starting to think that national identity can be quite useful, especially to counteract the natural entropy in a multiethnic, liberal democracy.
mzw_mzw 10y ago
Supranational entities are just as bad, except even less responsive to local conditions.

Great info. I'm especially eager to see the national identities diminishing greatly. They're as bad as religion.

by StijinM 10y ago

Great info. I'm especially eager to see the national identities diminishing greatly. They're as bad as religion.

return0 10y ago

They are trying to do that with personal identity politics. I dont see that going well either

rayiner 10y ago

When people give up national identity, they replace it with other kinds of group identities. Those replacements aren't necessarily better. Query what the dissolution of national identity does to the modern welfare state. Can we maintain that when people feel more allegiance to their social class or profession than to their countrymen? My family emigrated away from the sub-continent, which has a deep-seated culture of elevating class bonds above national ones. And in places like India you see wealthy people living in enclaves treating the working class around them like a different species. I'm frightened that a decline of nationalism and populism in the US could see a move in the same direction.

eeZah7Ux 10y ago
> decline of nationalism and populism in the US Did you just put nationalism in a good light by comparing it with classism? First of all, the two are not necessarily opposed and often go together. Also this is a false dilemma. Humans can live without a group identity or identify as living beings instead of being a "proud $skin_color $religion $nationality $gender". It's not far-fetched to say that this could prevent a lot of social conflicts and wars. Can someone prove me wrong?
- rayiner 10y ago
  I don't think human beings can live without group identity. I grew up in a DC suburb full of "open minded" cosmopolitan people. Group identity, along economic, political, and educational lines, was intense. People were vicious in demeaning "the dumb uneducated rednecks that live in flyover country." Group identity was asserted by having the right education, belonging to the right political party, having the right profession and aspirations. Human beings are fundamentally social creatures. Consider the ritual of meeting someone for the first time. People grill each other trying to figure out what they have in common. "Oh, how do you know $PARTY_HOST?" Oh, are you from Chicago too? How about the Cubs this year, huh?"
  - olalonde 10y ago
    That used to be a common argument against atheism but I think it's been largely debunked over time (e.g. people can live without religion and won't necessarily replace it with something worse). There's also a distinction to be made between voluntary association through shared interests (e.g. on Hacker News) versus a largely irrational allegiance towards a nation state (which is not usually a deliberate decision but a product of the birth lottery). I do agree that the modern welfare state would likely be difficult to maintain without national identity.
    - harryh 10y ago
      A pretty big percentage of atheists have replaced religion with environmentalism. The narrative is basically the same: We used to live in paradise but then man was corrupted and if we don't repent fast enough we'll be doomed to eternal damnation.
      - SilasX 10y ago
        And to extend the analogy, they're deeply offended at technological solutions to things that could be solved with self control. "Birth control? Just stop having sex when you don't want a kid." "Carbon sequestration? Just stop being so wasteful."
      - sctb 10y ago
        Arguments are easy when you can place whatever concepts you like in another's head, but we ask that comments stay civil and substantive on Hacker News. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        harryh 10y ago
        Sorry, didn't mean to cross a line!
        olalonde 10y ago
- jerf 10y ago
  'Humans can live without a group identity or identify as living beings instead of being a "proud $skin_color $religion $nationality $gender".' I think you may wish that was the case, but the evidence for this is rather lacking. Even the people who think they identify that way actually identify as people who identify that way and freely indulge in "othering" the people who choose a different identity basis.
gutnor 10y ago
On the other hand, in a context of globilization, nationalism and populism is performing very poorly. The rich people and most importantly rich companies are basically a class on their own and their look after themselves on global scale. Their profit and their power is distributed. Nationalism however stop at the border allowing larger than country entities to play a social race to the bottom between different countries. Everyday the fraction of wealth that is stuck by borders diminishes meaning regardless how much solidarity you have for your countrymen the pot of national money is getting smaller. Not that I have a solution and I don't really disagree with you or agree to GP. Just some counter example: Socialism that looked after working class across all of Europe did shape the social fabric of Europe and is arguably better than the US version. Nationalism, as in the case of Brexit or in France, Austria, Belgium, Holland is difficult to see in a positive light. Sure all those movement do the talk about caring for the little man but their policies are all clearly on the dismantling of the welfare state, not strengthening it.
GrinningFool 10y ago
> And in places like India you see wealthy people living in enclaves treating the working class around them like a different species. I'm frightened that a decline of nationalism and populism in the US could see a move in the same direction. We're already there, we just don't yet see it for what it is. Yesterday I watched a man on the phone while paying for his goods at a convenience store. The cashier spoke to him several times, he completely ignored her in favor of his phone. He made no sign of apology, it was literally like she wasn't there for him. And of course, she had to keep smiling because that is her place as a customer service provider. It would be one thing if this were isolated, but (anecdotally, of course) I only see it increasing. We're already at that point where some, at least, fail to consider the working class around them at all.
- ghufran_syed 10y ago
  Or maybe he was reading a text message about the death of a family member? Extrapolating from almost zero data usually isn't helpful, and probably often ends up being an opportunity to reinforce our own biases.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    This kind of thing happens constantly. They're not all receiving dire news. They're just oblivious.
  - GrinningFool 10y ago
    In this case he was speaking on the phone , and that wasn't the subject matter in question. I k ow this because he was also speaking as if he were in his private office. Certainly it's possible that some of the situations I've seen are of that type of origin - but IMO if you're interacting with a live human it's not an excuse. "I'm sorry , I just got terrible news" takes about two seconds to say. I don't know, I see very little that could excuse the behavior. If someone is able to get into the store and conduct a transaction, then that person is generally able to acknowledge the person assisting him or her on a minimal level as a human.
    - 10y ago

maehwasu 10y ago

It's really easy to see the negatives of things, but harder to see the positives. My gut reaction to national identity is "gross", but having seen the alternatives (personal identity politics), I'm starting to think that national identity can be quite useful, especially to counteract the natural entropy in a multiethnic, liberal democracy.

mzw_mzw 10y ago

Supranational entities are just as bad, except even less responsive to local conditions.