7 ms·

I still giggle a bit every single time one of these EU healthcare stories pops up. It highlights a core difference between one of the two most "advanced" place

I still giggle a bit every single time one of these EU healthcare stories pops up. It highlights a core difference between one of the two most "advanced" places in the western world. For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. It is a as essential as a core human function as breathing and blinking. We don't notice it, it's just there. And most of us are more than happy to pay higher taxes in order for us ( or our fellow citizens ) to enjoy these. Granted , our taxes could be better managed, institutions could be more efficient, and governments less corrupt. But until someone shows us - with long term data backing up these claims - that there is a better alternative , we will keep giggling .

ekianjo 10y ago
> free education ( university included ) La Fac is one of the worst places to get an education though.
- zdkl 10y ago
  If you're not in the fac mindset, sure. But still, equal access and cheap education is not something to spit at!
  - bosie 10y ago
    > If you're not in the fac mindset what is a "fac mindset"?
    - binarycoffee 10y ago
      fac = faculté, basically a French university. I guess what the parents refer to is that Universities in France are not as elitist as in other countries; the most prestigious higher education public schools are often considered to be the so-called "grandes ecoles" (engineering schools) or some specific administration/economics schools.
      - omginternets 10y ago
        Grandes écoles are not just engineering, administration and economics schools.
    - zdkl 10y ago
      The facs in France are well known for their laissez-faire attitude vis à vis students' personal work. The faculty personnel has a limited engagement with the integration of the students into the cursus. Combined with the moderate interest post-high school students show this leads to about 50% of the promotion not quite dropping out.(+) And then there's the 'diplomas for all' aspect which incentivises the faculty to reach out and lower the barrier of passage into the next year, with obvious consequences.... (+) oh the humanities, mostly
- Majestic121 10y ago
  Just look at the Shanghai Ranking, some facs seems to be doing pretty good : http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-2016/France.html http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-201... While it is true that there are some very bad Facs and cursuses, dissing 'La fac' altogether seems a bit harsh
  - peteretep 10y ago
    > some facs seems to be > doing pretty good 3 in the top hundred for a country with France's intellectual and cultural pedigree is a disgrace.
    - ward 10y ago
      30% of the ranking's rating is based on nobel laureate/fields medal in alumni or staff. 20% based just on amount of publications in Nature and Science. I never know why people rate these rankings so highly when there are such unimpressive metrics like these. Not to mention that this particular ranking does not seem to consider education at all anyway, which is what the GP was talking about.
      - peteretep 10y ago
        France has a similarly poor showing in virtually every ranking.
- peteretep 10y ago
  Shame this is being downvoted. Non-UK EU countries have some pretty shitty universities given how rich they are. Of the top 40 in the Shanghai Rankings, two are non-UK EU and five are in the UK. Cost-to-user in the UK isn't free but it's pretty cheap when compared to the American competition.
  - DrJohanson 10y ago
    The Shanghai Rankings are about research more than teaching. I don't know in other EU countries, but in Germany and in France almost all of the research is done by public institutions unaffiliated with universities (Max Planck Society, CNRS...).
jdub 10y ago
There's another way to look at it that I don't think the USA will be ready to understand any time soon: Universal health and education are (key parts of) freedom. You can even put a market spin on it: None of the risks involved in starting a small business in Australia have to do with health care for myself, or for people who might consider joining my small business as employees. I've never felt as if I'm giving up autonomy or surrendering to the yoke of the state or whatever. Public universal health care gives me freedom. From and for so many things.
- quantum_state 10y ago
  With the election in US, I have to say that civilization in the country has been set back for many centuries.. not surprised to see a dog bites dog environment in the States...
  - StevePerkins 10y ago
    > been set back for many centuries Oh come ON, Internet...
  - estel 10y ago
    A century is a very long time, even for a President.
- witty_username 10y ago
  But someone has to pay for the health care, so they're losing some freedom (money in this case). That person gives up freedom also on the pricing of your healthcare. Note: that person may be you, depending on taxation
  - jdub 10y ago
    The value of the better society I live in is greater than the value of what I pay in tax.
  - omginternets 10y ago
    You're equating money with freedom where the question is philosophical: can you be 'free' in any meaningful way if your life is burdened by a lack of education, the financial ruin of having been seriously ill, or the handicap of having been poorly treated for a disease? So yes, that's precisely the trade-off. We accept to lose a little bit of money in exchange for the ability to flourish.
YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
>> free education ( university included ) keep in mind that this is not a given in all EU countries. In the UK (still an EU country, though not for long) one has to either get a student loan from the British state, or cover their own tuition fees.
- jdietrich 10y ago
  The British student loan system is essentially a graduate tax in disguise. You only repay 9% of your income over £21,000, deducted automatically from your wages in the same way as income tax. The loan is cancelled after 30 years, regardless of how much you have repaid. Young people understand that it's not a "debt" in the conventional sense of the word.
  - Marazan 10y ago
    Except it counts against you for mortgage applications so in one very important way it is exactly like a debt.
    - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
      But this is fairly practical and honest: I'd want to know if the person had student loans taken out of their paycheck before giving a mortgage. It might make a difference on how much I loan the person: They obviously don't have the disposable income as another person making the same wages yet not having a loan taken out.
    - sveiss 10y ago
      It only counts against you for mortgage applications because it reduces your net income, just like any tax does. A rise in general Income Tax rates would have a similar impact. It doesn't show up on your credit report, you can't miss a payment and damage your future creditworthiness, and lenders don't include the value of the loan when calculating your total indebtedness. It's much closer to a graduate tax than a personal loan for mortgage purposes.
    - jdietrich 10y ago
switch007 10y ago
> For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. Many people in the UK fear for the life expectancy of the NHS. It's featured in the media very often. Ditto welfare benefits. We pay for dental care and prescriptions. Hospitals and health centre are closing left, right and centre. Benefits are being slashed in cruel ways. Many have private health care through their employers. Kids are leaving University with £40,000+ loans now. :(
- Noseshine 10y ago
  Don't downvote the parent comment, those following British news sources will know that for quite some time UK government seems to be trying to undermine the system and make it so bad that they can then point to how bad it is as justification for privatization. Just a few examples: - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/15/bma-theresa-may-nhs-crisis-autumn-statement https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/15/bma-theresa-... - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-zoe-norris/nhs-cameron-hunt_b_7308144.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-zoe-norris/nhs-cameron-hu... - http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article4713380.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article4713380.ece - https://www.ft.com/content/35a3e764-705a-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926 https://www.ft.com/content/35a3e764-705a-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b... (or without paywall: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/31/bma-announces-further-strikes-junior-doctors-contract-dispute https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/31/bma-announce...) Other articles were written by doctors in the NHS, what they had to say didn't sound good at all. But the problem is that the government wants to abolish the "socialized" system and mishandles it (deliberately, as many article writers claim).
- switch007 10y ago
  NHS is most widely held concern of UK adults in poll "Issues Facing Britain (Issues Index)" by Ipsos Mori (Sep 2016) https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3788/Concern-about-the-NHS-and-education-rises-to-the-highest-level-for-over-a-year.aspx https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharch...
- iraklism 10y ago
riffraff 10y ago
not to ruin your idealism (I agree with your sentiment) but university is not free in large parts of Europe (it is generally cheaper than US though).

ekianjo 10y ago

> free education ( university included ) La Fac is one of the worst places to get an education though.

zdkl 10y ago
If you're not in the fac mindset, sure. But still, equal access and cheap education is not something to spit at!
- bosie 10y ago
  > If you're not in the fac mindset what is a "fac mindset"?
  - binarycoffee 10y ago
    fac = faculté, basically a French university. I guess what the parents refer to is that Universities in France are not as elitist as in other countries; the most prestigious higher education public schools are often considered to be the so-called "grandes ecoles" (engineering schools) or some specific administration/economics schools.
    - omginternets 10y ago
      Grandes écoles are not just engineering, administration and economics schools.
  - zdkl 10y ago
    The facs in France are well known for their laissez-faire attitude vis à vis students' personal work. The faculty personnel has a limited engagement with the integration of the students into the cursus. Combined with the moderate interest post-high school students show this leads to about 50% of the promotion not quite dropping out.(+) And then there's the 'diplomas for all' aspect which incentivises the faculty to reach out and lower the barrier of passage into the next year, with obvious consequences.... (+) oh the humanities, mostly
Majestic121 10y ago
Just look at the Shanghai Ranking, some facs seems to be doing pretty good : http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-2016/France.html http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-201... While it is true that there are some very bad Facs and cursuses, dissing 'La fac' altogether seems a bit harsh
- peteretep 10y ago
  > some facs seems to be > doing pretty good 3 in the top hundred for a country with France's intellectual and cultural pedigree is a disgrace.
  - ward 10y ago
    30% of the ranking's rating is based on nobel laureate/fields medal in alumni or staff. 20% based just on amount of publications in Nature and Science. I never know why people rate these rankings so highly when there are such unimpressive metrics like these. Not to mention that this particular ranking does not seem to consider education at all anyway, which is what the GP was talking about.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      France has a similarly poor showing in virtually every ranking.
peteretep 10y ago
Shame this is being downvoted. Non-UK EU countries have some pretty shitty universities given how rich they are. Of the top 40 in the Shanghai Rankings, two are non-UK EU and five are in the UK. Cost-to-user in the UK isn't free but it's pretty cheap when compared to the American competition.
- DrJohanson 10y ago
  The Shanghai Rankings are about research more than teaching. I don't know in other EU countries, but in Germany and in France almost all of the research is done by public institutions unaffiliated with universities (Max Planck Society, CNRS...).

jdub 10y ago

There's another way to look at it that I don't think the USA will be ready to understand any time soon: Universal health and education are (key parts of) freedom. You can even put a market spin on it: None of the risks involved in starting a small business in Australia have to do with health care for myself, or for people who might consider joining my small business as employees. I've never felt as if I'm giving up autonomy or surrendering to the yoke of the state or whatever. Public universal health care gives me freedom. From and for so many things.

quantum_state 10y ago
With the election in US, I have to say that civilization in the country has been set back for many centuries.. not surprised to see a dog bites dog environment in the States...
- StevePerkins 10y ago
  > been set back for many centuries Oh come ON, Internet...
- estel 10y ago
  A century is a very long time, even for a President.
witty_username 10y ago
But someone has to pay for the health care, so they're losing some freedom (money in this case). That person gives up freedom also on the pricing of your healthcare. Note: that person may be you, depending on taxation
- jdub 10y ago
  The value of the better society I live in is greater than the value of what I pay in tax.
- omginternets 10y ago
  You're equating money with freedom where the question is philosophical: can you be 'free' in any meaningful way if your life is burdened by a lack of education, the financial ruin of having been seriously ill, or the handicap of having been poorly treated for a disease? So yes, that's precisely the trade-off. We accept to lose a little bit of money in exchange for the ability to flourish.

YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago

>> free education ( university included ) keep in mind that this is not a given in all EU countries. In the UK (still an EU country, though not for long) one has to either get a student loan from the British state, or cover their own tuition fees.

jdietrich 10y ago
The British student loan system is essentially a graduate tax in disguise. You only repay 9% of your income over £21,000, deducted automatically from your wages in the same way as income tax. The loan is cancelled after 30 years, regardless of how much you have repaid. Young people understand that it's not a "debt" in the conventional sense of the word.
- Marazan 10y ago
  Except it counts against you for mortgage applications so in one very important way it is exactly like a debt.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    But this is fairly practical and honest: I'd want to know if the person had student loans taken out of their paycheck before giving a mortgage. It might make a difference on how much I loan the person: They obviously don't have the disposable income as another person making the same wages yet not having a loan taken out.
  - sveiss 10y ago
    It only counts against you for mortgage applications because it reduces your net income, just like any tax does. A rise in general Income Tax rates would have a similar impact. It doesn't show up on your credit report, you can't miss a payment and damage your future creditworthiness, and lenders don't include the value of the loan when calculating your total indebtedness. It's much closer to a graduate tax than a personal loan for mortgage purposes.
  - jdietrich 10y ago

switch007 10y ago

> For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. Many people in the UK fear for the life expectancy of the NHS. It's featured in the media very often. Ditto welfare benefits. We pay for dental care and prescriptions. Hospitals and health centre are closing left, right and centre. Benefits are being slashed in cruel ways. Many have private health care through their employers. Kids are leaving University with £40,000+ loans now. :(

Noseshine 10y ago
Don't downvote the parent comment, those following British news sources will know that for quite some time UK government seems to be trying to undermine the system and make it so bad that they can then point to how bad it is as justification for privatization. Just a few examples: - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/15/bma-theresa-may-nhs-crisis-autumn-statement https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/15/bma-theresa-... - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-zoe-norris/nhs-cameron-hunt_b_7308144.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-zoe-norris/nhs-cameron-hu... - http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article4713380.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article4713380.ece - https://www.ft.com/content/35a3e764-705a-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926 https://www.ft.com/content/35a3e764-705a-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b... (or without paywall: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/31/bma-announces-further-strikes-junior-doctors-contract-dispute https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/31/bma-announce...) Other articles were written by doctors in the NHS, what they had to say didn't sound good at all. But the problem is that the government wants to abolish the "socialized" system and mishandles it (deliberately, as many article writers claim).
switch007 10y ago
NHS is most widely held concern of UK adults in poll "Issues Facing Britain (Issues Index)" by Ipsos Mori (Sep 2016) https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3788/Concern-about-the-NHS-and-education-rises-to-the-highest-level-for-over-a-year.aspx https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharch...
iraklism 10y ago

riffraff 10y ago

not to ruin your idealism (I agree with your sentiment) but university is not free in large parts of Europe (it is generally cheaper than US though).