4 ms·

How would Google protect its customers from law enforcement and mass surveillance programs? The government can just force them to do whatever and issue a gag or

How would Google protect its customers from law enforcement and mass surveillance programs? The government can just force them to do whatever and issue a gag order to keep them quiet. Apple is just putting on a show with their tough security rhetoric, they can't resist the US government if they really want some data.

jonathankoren 10y ago
Apple is doing more than putting on a show. They've actively trying to build ML products that don't involve sending everything back to the mothership ala Google, FB, etc., but rather store and execute on the local device. (The efficacy and user experience of these products remains to be determined.) From a security standpoint, Apple wouldn't have anything to turn over, because they never had it to begin with. Google et al, hoover up everything the least bit interesting.
- bitmapbrother 10y ago
  No, he's right. Apple is putting on a PR show. If a warrant is served to Apple they'll hand over whatever data they have on you including any metadata on your encrypted data. They also have teams working 24/7 to serve up this data to government officials and law enforcement. It's all in the leaked Apple/Podesta emails.
  - willstrafach 10y ago
    Your framing is disingenuous, considering that any large company will have staff ready to respond to legal / discovery demands. This is a legal process, not something Apple is doing out of their own volition.
    - jwtadvice 10y ago
      I agree with this. Government leverage on Apple is huge, as is the magnitude of public-private partnership. Mass surveillance of its products is not likely something that Apple would have pursued on its own. However, it Apple has capitulated to a combination of carrots and sticks. Today, it enables surveillance of its customers.
      - jonathankoren 10y ago
        Citation needed.
    - bitmapbrother 10y ago
      I'm sure all large companies have staff to handle these requests for information, but this is the first time I've heard of a company creating a team that does nothing but hand over customer data 24 hours a day. Apple VP Lisa Jackson: >Please know that Apple will continue its work with law enforcement. We share law enforcement’s concerns about the threat to citizens and we work closely with authorities to comply with legal requests for data that have helped solve complex crimes. Thousands of times every month, we give governments information about Apple customers and devices, in response to warrants and other forms of legal process. We have a team that responds to those requests 24 hours a day. Strong encryption does not eliminate Apple’s ability to give law enforcement meta-data or any of a number of other very useful categories of data.
      - jwtadvice 10y ago
        Yes. For an understanding of what data Apple gives surveillance operations access to, the following list is enumerated in an older Law Enforcement Access document: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12983081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12983081 It's also important to understand that the purpose for this surveillance (this following section being informed by the Snowden Disclosures) is not merely for investigative work or for tracking down terrorists. Intelligence work of this kind is used in HUMINT operations (mass propaganda), for industrial espionage, for diplomatic espionage and for signals collections (intelligence used to break into networks). It is not clear whether Apple shares these concerns with the US government, or whether it shares lesser concerns that show up at a much lower frequency.
      - phil21 10y ago
        Plenty of telecoms have had 24 hour abuse desks, which generally handled this sort of thing. Even more specialized departments for law enforcement in the huge majors and you always had a 24x7 on-call legal counsel if needed. It is absolutely possible to get someone on in real time if you are Important(tm) enough and have a lawful reason that is life critical in nature. Facebook, Google, Apple, Twitter, etc. all pretty much fall under the "telecom" label these days in what they do, so it's not surprising in the least. Just expanding on that - not dipping my toe into any other part of this debate!
amelius 10y ago
I think the point that Apple is making is that they don't have the data in the first place (because of their device-side encryption).

jonathankoren 10y ago

Apple is doing more than putting on a show. They've actively trying to build ML products that don't involve sending everything back to the mothership ala Google, FB, etc., but rather store and execute on the local device. (The efficacy and user experience of these products remains to be determined.) From a security standpoint, Apple wouldn't have anything to turn over, because they never had it to begin with. Google et al, hoover up everything the least bit interesting.

bitmapbrother 10y ago
No, he's right. Apple is putting on a PR show. If a warrant is served to Apple they'll hand over whatever data they have on you including any metadata on your encrypted data. They also have teams working 24/7 to serve up this data to government officials and law enforcement. It's all in the leaked Apple/Podesta emails.
- willstrafach 10y ago
  Your framing is disingenuous, considering that any large company will have staff ready to respond to legal / discovery demands. This is a legal process, not something Apple is doing out of their own volition.
  - jwtadvice 10y ago
    I agree with this. Government leverage on Apple is huge, as is the magnitude of public-private partnership. Mass surveillance of its products is not likely something that Apple would have pursued on its own. However, it Apple has capitulated to a combination of carrots and sticks. Today, it enables surveillance of its customers.
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      Citation needed.
  - bitmapbrother 10y ago
    I'm sure all large companies have staff to handle these requests for information, but this is the first time I've heard of a company creating a team that does nothing but hand over customer data 24 hours a day. Apple VP Lisa Jackson: >Please know that Apple will continue its work with law enforcement. We share law enforcement’s concerns about the threat to citizens and we work closely with authorities to comply with legal requests for data that have helped solve complex crimes. Thousands of times every month, we give governments information about Apple customers and devices, in response to warrants and other forms of legal process. We have a team that responds to those requests 24 hours a day. Strong encryption does not eliminate Apple’s ability to give law enforcement meta-data or any of a number of other very useful categories of data.
    - jwtadvice 10y ago
      Yes. For an understanding of what data Apple gives surveillance operations access to, the following list is enumerated in an older Law Enforcement Access document: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12983081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12983081 It's also important to understand that the purpose for this surveillance (this following section being informed by the Snowden Disclosures) is not merely for investigative work or for tracking down terrorists. Intelligence work of this kind is used in HUMINT operations (mass propaganda), for industrial espionage, for diplomatic espionage and for signals collections (intelligence used to break into networks). It is not clear whether Apple shares these concerns with the US government, or whether it shares lesser concerns that show up at a much lower frequency.
    - phil21 10y ago
      Plenty of telecoms have had 24 hour abuse desks, which generally handled this sort of thing. Even more specialized departments for law enforcement in the huge majors and you always had a 24x7 on-call legal counsel if needed. It is absolutely possible to get someone on in real time if you are Important(tm) enough and have a lawful reason that is life critical in nature. Facebook, Google, Apple, Twitter, etc. all pretty much fall under the "telecom" label these days in what they do, so it's not surprising in the least. Just expanding on that - not dipping my toe into any other part of this debate!

amelius 10y ago

I think the point that Apple is making is that they don't have the data in the first place (because of their device-side encryption).