13 ms·

Court to Cops: No Immunity If You 'Don't Have Time for Constitutional Bullshit'

239 points by fritzw 10y ago

mrcactu5 10y ago
wait. even though the veteran was suicidal, it's that he used the wrong phone number? i'm confused. veterans go though a unique form of stress. and they get seperate medical care etc, which I hear is not always that great.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  He wasn't suicidal. He just call the wrong hotline. > A disabled vet with PTSD accidentally called a suicide prevention hotline when > intending to dial the Veterans Crisis Line. Very first line in the article.
  - mrcactu5 10y ago
    so why was he calling the Veteran's crisis line?
    - mikeash 10y ago
      Because he couldn't sleep, and it's implied he was having trouble with his PTSD. Is it too much to ask to read the article?
      - 086421357909764 10y ago
        To follow your comment, numerous veterans un-able to get support locally through their VA office have used the line as a last ditch effort to get support. Knowing you are suffering from a mental health issue isn't the same as being suicidal.
    - giarc 10y ago
      Really helps to read the article. >On the night of February 2, 2010, suffering from sleep deprivation, he inadvertently phoned the National Suicide Hotline when dialing a number he thought to be a Veterans Crisis Line.
  - stonemetal 10y ago
    Veterans Crisis Line is a suicide prevention hotline setup by the VA for Vets. So yeah he called the wrong suicide prevention line but he still intended to call suicide prevention.
    - Noseshine 10y ago
      As I understand it, and I checked their "About" page to make sure [0], their focus is broader and they want you to call them well before suicidal thoughts, which is why they don't have "suicide" in the name. > In 2011, the National Veterans Suicide Prevention Hotline was renamed the Veterans Crisis > Line to encourage Veterans and their families and friends to make the call. People who know > a Veteran best may be the first to recognize emotional distress and reach out for support > when issues reach a crisis point — and well before a Veteran is at risk of suicide. [0] https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/About/AboutVeteransCrisisLine.aspx https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/About/AboutVeteransCrisis...
      - gohrt 10y ago
        Splitting semantic hairs. The name changed, but the phone number didn't; the goal is still suicide prevention, but with an attempt to avoid the stigma that comes with "suicide" in the name.
        Noseshine 10y ago
        It is not "splitting hairs"! Did you read the article? There is a difference between acute suicide prevention and general prevention! You would not expect the kind of reaction that he got when calling this hotline, because they don't assume an immediate case of suicide that they have to send police to without delay!
      - stonemetal 10y ago
        I would agree that they handle more than suicide response, but I would disagree that they are not primarily suicide response. If you call not in immediate crisis it sounds like they are going to refer you to the closest suicide prevention coordinator. From their when to call page: >If you’re thinking of hurting yourself, looking for ways to kill yourself, or becoming self-destructive, don’t continue to face it alone. Contact the Veterans Crisis Line immediately... >For Veterans NOT in immediate crisis: >Help is always available. Suicide Prevention Coordinators are at all VA Medical Centers (VAMCs) nationwide and work closely with Veterans dealing with mental health conditions and with difficult life events and experiences. https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhenToCall.aspx https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhenToCall.aspx
- mikeash 10y ago
  He wasn't suicidal, he just called the suicide hotline by accident. I'm not too surprised that the suicide hotline had trouble handling someone who wasn't suicidal. I called one once, trying to figure out how to help a mentally ill person who had been e-mailing me. They weren't exactly the appropriate place to call, but this person was in another country and they were the first people I could think of to at least point me in the right direction. They did help, but they also kept asking me questions like, "does this make you suicidal?" Strange experience, although it did work out fine in the end for me.
- altendo 10y ago
  He called the right number. The Veterans' Crisis Line and National Suicide Hotline are the same phone numbers (1-800-273-8255). When you call that number, you need to press 1 at the audio prompt to switch over to the line specific to veterans.
tracker1 10y ago
Nice to see the courts doing the right thing here... While I feel that most Police Officers are mostly good, and that a lot of the anti-police rhetoric exceeds reasonable; I do believe it's become a systemic issue wrt Police organizations exceeding their positions and violating the rights of the people they are meant to serve.
- jrs235 10y ago
  From the comments on the site: "One of the facts that bothers me most -- other than the officers behavior -- is that this comes from the APPEALS court. The District court apparently found no problem with the violation of his constitutional rights."
  - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
    Not necessarily? It seems reasonable the MPD could & would have appealed if the district ruled against, especially given this case hadn't made national media. And although there were egregious comments made, this is the kind of situation where precedent and judicial restraint almost always ends up favoring the PD. Edit: District court did rule in MPD's favor. Which isn't surprising of course. Still, wouldn't have been surprised if MPD appealed had it gone against them, for above mentioned reasons.
    - jrs235 10y ago
      Matthew Corrigan is the Appellant meaning he was the one appealing the lower courts decision.
    - vilhelm_s 10y ago
      The court opinion is linked in the first paragraph of the article. It begins > [Corrigan] now appeals the grant of summary judgment to the defendants, challenging the district court’s rulings that there was no constitutional violation and that the officers were entitled to qualified immunity. Also interesting is how close this case was: the appeals court panel was split 2-1. The dissenting judge agrees that there was a constitutional violation, but says this law was not "clearly established" so the officers should have immunity. It goes to show how low the qualified immunity bar is.
libeclipse 10y ago
The police officers' behaviour in the situation was inexcusable, but the bias and anti-police rhetoric in the article is excessive.
- SubiculumCode 10y ago
  If police use excessive force and fuck a guy's constitutional 'bullshit' then they can stand some more 'excessive, yet Constitutionally protected bullshit' in return. phew.
- smitherfield 10y ago
  I wouldn't even call it inexcusable. The police are allowed to enter a private residence to prevent a person from harming themselves or others, and they had received a report, which they had no reason to believe was untrue, stating that the guy was suicidal and had a gun.
  - libeclipse 10y ago
    I agree that it's not solely the police's fault. The fault rather lies in the whole chain that led up to the events.
  - coldcode 10y ago
    Once, maybe. The second time is the unconstitutional behavior and will result in the city paying millions of dollars.
    - exclusiv 10y ago
      Which is sad because the public gets screwed by them twice.
      - mcguire 10y ago
        The nice thing about democracy is that you get the government you deserve.
  - 10y ago
StanislavPetrov 10y ago
The real problem here is that these cops were not immediately arrested for home invasion and the abuse of his Constitutional rights. Why is this limited to a civil suit? These cops acted unlawfully and unconstitutionally and should be criminally charged.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  Ha, you must not be from around here. Don't get me wrong, I agree in principle, but an on-duty cop getting arrested AT THE SCENE of their misconduct? Sadly, it's impossible to imagine. Even when they kill someone in the most egregious circumstances, they're immediately given a celebratory cigarette, wrapped up in a blanket, passed off to union handlers, and coddled for at least 24 hours before even having to acknowledge that they might have done something wrong.
  - baldfat 10y ago
    Unions are not the problem. Union can only work within the policies in place. The problem is with those policies.
    - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
      Didn't say they were the problem, just pointing out that that's what happens. But I don't agree with your second statement. Unions heavily influence those policies during collective bargaining.
- clarkmoody 10y ago
  That would require a widespread acceptance of libertarian ideals of justice, which is not present in society. People respond to incentives. Giving any individual any sort of immunity against laws that apply to everyone else will ultimately lead to the worst abuses. How many will we never hear about? This sort of story will continue to appear until there is a systemic change.
  - 10y ago
Neliquat 10y ago
This is the problem with American LEOs. Not racism, but a basic contempt for the system.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  I agree, though I would say the contempt is not consciously cultivated - and one certainly doesn't become a cop if one has strong anti-establishment beliefs. Rather, I think it comes from the dissonance introduced by internalizing the 'warrior mentality' which creates a fantastical perception of the cop's reality as an endless war against unremitting criminality. In such a reality, the barriers created by "constitutional bullshit" could very well be the difference between life and death to the warrior, who is taught that they and their comrades survival is the most important goal at all times. So they come to resent such checks on their power as being imposed by clueless bureaucrats and overly idealistic citizens who don't appreciate the harsh reality of life on the battlefield.
- Beltiras 10y ago
  Don't think this is a uniquely American problem. Icelandic police just got handed a sentence for stripsearching a 16 year old girl.
  - belovedeagle 10y ago
    > just got handed a sentence And here we see why the current American problem is uniquely American — because that would never have happened.
    - hga 10y ago
      Really?? https://www.google.com/search?q=strip+search+texas+road https://www.google.com/search?q=strip+search+texas+road And not just in Texas, see some of the articles. ADDED: I missed that, to date, to my knowledge and from what I've just been reviewing, none of the police in these cases have been so much as criminally charged. Yes, that indeed shows it didn't happen in the US.
Beltiras 10y ago
I'm just glad the cops didn't kill the dog. My first thought when reading about his dog was "Oh no!".
- Beltiras 10y ago
  There's even a blog about police murdering dogs. https://dogmurders.wordpress.com/ https://dogmurders.wordpress.com/
- curried_haskell 10y ago
  I had the same thought... half expecting the cops to execute his dog.
ryanlol 10y ago
The other cops. You know, the decent human beings that somehow ended up working as police officers. If you can't find any of those, we might as well just shoot all the cops.
- mistercow 10y ago
  I wish you hadn't advocated violence, because your first sentence raised a good point. Where were the good cops, who we are assured comprise the majority, and who should have arrested these allegedly rare "bad apples"?
  - ryanlol 10y ago
    If there is no good cops then what we have is an armed gang going around robbing and shooting people on the street. Violence has always been considered an OK solution to that. Of course, one would hope that the idea that there exists no good cops to arrest the bad cops is as absurd as it sounds. When you take a look though, you'll quickly realise that internally the good cops are the "bad apples". To be fair, this is all probably just the natural outcome of how police departments are built. Putting people in these positions of power with no system built to effectively scrutinise their actions is inevitably going to lead to large scale corruption.
  - pyre 10y ago
    Probably keeping their heads low because once you "turn" on another cop -- even if that cop is shooting up a crowd of people with a machine gun while eating babies -- other cops feel that they can't trust you anymore. If they make a mistake, any mistake, you will just "tattle" on them.
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    If we are to take the idiom seriously, the good cops (the rest of the barrel) are spoiled by the rare bad apples.
- sctb 10y ago
  We detached this flagged subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12979154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12979154.
jknoepfler 10y ago
The very idea that the police would return to the house without cause or warrant and search it - which is a grotesque constitutional violation - reflects an attitude of hostility and opposition to the community the police are supposed to literally "protect and serve." I'm increasingly of the belief that the domestic police in the United States shouldn't even be called a force, they should be called a service. They should not carry firearms, and they should not receive primarily military training. They should be well paid and receive aggressive financial incentives to continue their education. They should always be wearing a body cam when on duty. There will always be a need for armed police at some point, but that point is not the streets, and not daily response to mundane events.
- gohrt 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
- dforrestwilson1 10y ago
  One caveat to this: from the data I've seen a lot of these issues revolve around specific communities. Please keep in mind that police forces are not national, but rather local.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    They are local, but we see patterns repeated nationally.
    - pyre 10y ago
      We also see some of the same patterns internationally. One might even venture a guess that the power the is inherently given to perform police duties has a universal appeal towards abuse that affects many humans in the same way...
      - soundwave106 10y ago
        Which is why I see it less as an American police problem versus an American police culture problem. The bad cop stereotype is universal. But America's current police culture in my opinion encourages bad cop behavior. The culture is way too military-oriented versus community oriented at the moment. It is hard to "protect and serve" your community if you are always at "war" with some "enemy". This case is a perfect example of that.
Kenji 10y ago
Having mental health problems is dangerous. Once again it shows that you must not let the state know in any way, shape or form, or else you can expect that they take rights away from you.
zekevermillion 10y ago
Very sad that someone calling with PTSD did not get help, but the opposite. 4th amendment violations happen all the time. It's good to see justice done here, the system worked (eventually). The upshot of this story is not so much that the police messed up, as occasionally happens with treagic result -- it is that veterans still are not getting quality care.
FilterSweep 10y ago
One thing not discussed yet here is that it also appears to me the National Suicide Hotline isn't even handling their calls correctly. I'm clearly no suicide prevention expert, but questioning the caller on drug use, repeatedly demanding to put weapons (that are not even present) away, then calling a militant police force upon no response, shows that the Hotline isn't really being the sympathetic role they were initially intended to be. As bad as this situation has been for veterans, it brings to light how poorly (IMO) they are handling citizens reaching out for help as well.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  This stood out to me as well. The drug use question is a reasonable one, at least in terms of active use. It has a significant impact on how you want to talk to someone, how at-risk they are, and yes, on what the police should be aware of if they're eventually contacted. It shouldn't ever go further if the person doesn't need a police visit, though. Demanding that he "say the guns are down" sounds like stupid and alarming legalism. It strikes me as someone reading a script, unable to deal with an answer of "they were never up to begin with, and are locked away, can we move on". And the whole thing... yes, the police can help with suicides. Yes, someone hanging up without explanation is a bad sign. But you can't fail to help people, then assume they're unstable for hanging up on you, then make wild and unjustified claims to the police.
  - mcguire 10y ago
    It stood out to me as well. As an initial thought, I would have expected the hotline to operate under the same privacy regulations as any other medical facility. At least in the absence of any warning otherwise.
joesmo 10y ago
This is why it's a terrible idea in the US to tell anyone about your problems, especially mental problems. Help is NOT out there unless you're extremely lucky and rich. Most likely, there are a bunch of goons like in this article waiting to pick you up, beat you up, and drop you off at the nearest jail. That's if they don't just kill you outright. And the uninformed still wonder why we have so many problems with mental health and suicide in the US, a place where seeking help--even by accident--is likely to make things worse or even lead to death.
- altendo 10y ago
  > Help is NOT out there unless you're extremely lucky and rich There is, for sure. There are crisis centers that don't respond like that. They may not be common - so maybe some luck is involved - but there are people out there trying to help others.
altendo 10y ago
This is hard to read. I volunteer at a crisis center, and just reading the description of how the phone volunteer handled the call made me cringe. In my experience, you don't call the cops just because they call the suicide hotline and have guns - I've experienced instances where callers call and aren't suicidal. I'd need a clear sense of intent before going out of my way to do that. I really hope this was just a one-off thing, and not at all how volunteers (if they are volunteers at all) treat callers on the suicide hotline.
- mcguire 10y ago
  Do your clients know that you may call the police if you get a sense of intent?
  - altendo 10y ago
    If I perceive an imminent likelihood of an attempt, I'll generally start trying to get a location from them - it's not subtle, they'll know. Sometimes people will give it, other times they resist for whatever reason. For those that resist I will process that feeling that they have and then try again. They may even ask if I'll contact police, in which case I can't lie to them. Ultimately I may _never_ get a location, or I'll have an extremely ill-defined location - it's always up to the caller if that is information they want to give.
    - altendo 10y ago
      clarification: if it gets to the point where I suspect an attempt is likely, or if an attempt is happening, I will start working towards attempting to get location information. The first thing I usually do, however, is help the caller process their feelings to help build trust upfront, even in cases of high suicidality. Speed is of the essence though in certain circumstances.
ashmud 10y ago
News story from 2012: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/may/23/miller-iraq-vet-brutalized-over-guns-dc/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/may/23/miller-...
altendo 10y ago
the article fails to clarify this, but the number for the Veterans' Crisis Line and the National Suicide Hotline are the same (1-800-273-8255). When you call that number, you are prompted to press 1 to be redirected to the veterans line. In this case, Mr. Corrigan likely missed the prompt and got sent to the suicide hotline - a not uncommon experience for veterans.
- mcguire 10y ago
  Is there a notice that the National Suicide Hotline will report your call to your local police? Does the Veterans' line have the same policy?
  - mcguire 10y ago
    Answering part of my own question: nope. https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhatToExpect.aspx https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhatToExpect.aspx
  - altendo 10y ago
    It depends entirely on where your call to the suicide hotline gets routed. I won't contact police unless there's an immediate threat to the caller or to someone else (in cases of abuse/homicide, the caller might not be the one in danger), anything short of that I won't. This, however, is how my crisis center handles such calls. I can't speak for every organization that takes calls from the suicide hotline.
VaChildAbuse 10y ago
Well this is nice to read. I have PTSD, and attempted suicide three weeks ago. I was having a big problem last night and almost rang the same number. I'm glad that I didn't. So next time I'll probably just get into a bag, or jump from a higher place than last time.
- ImTalking 10y ago
  Very sorry to hear this, mate. With depression, we lose sight of the small wins in life like a beautiful day, or a walk on the beach. Society measures success by wealth/status but individually, deep down, all of us know that the accumulation of small wins is the ticket. My son has asperger's and this is what I try to instil in him. I hope you're OK.
ccvannorman 10y ago
I read through this article and was shocked at the level of expectation for constitutional violation built into the police departments "standard operating procedures." Happy to see the court wasn't having it, and hope this trend continues to clamp down on this department and others who believe or behave similarly.

239 points by fritzw 10y ago

wait. even though the veteran was suicidal, it's that he used the wrong phone number? i'm confused. veterans go though a unique form of stress. and they get seperate medical care etc, which I hear is not always that great.

Noseshine 10y ago
He wasn't suicidal. He just call the wrong hotline. > A disabled vet with PTSD accidentally called a suicide prevention hotline when > intending to dial the Veterans Crisis Line. Very first line in the article.
- mrcactu5 10y ago
  so why was he calling the Veteran's crisis line?
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Because he couldn't sleep, and it's implied he was having trouble with his PTSD. Is it too much to ask to read the article?
    - 086421357909764 10y ago
      To follow your comment, numerous veterans un-able to get support locally through their VA office have used the line as a last ditch effort to get support. Knowing you are suffering from a mental health issue isn't the same as being suicidal.
  - giarc 10y ago
    Really helps to read the article. >On the night of February 2, 2010, suffering from sleep deprivation, he inadvertently phoned the National Suicide Hotline when dialing a number he thought to be a Veterans Crisis Line.
- stonemetal 10y ago
  Veterans Crisis Line is a suicide prevention hotline setup by the VA for Vets. So yeah he called the wrong suicide prevention line but he still intended to call suicide prevention.
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    As I understand it, and I checked their "About" page to make sure [0], their focus is broader and they want you to call them well before suicidal thoughts, which is why they don't have "suicide" in the name. > In 2011, the National Veterans Suicide Prevention Hotline was renamed the Veterans Crisis > Line to encourage Veterans and their families and friends to make the call. People who know > a Veteran best may be the first to recognize emotional distress and reach out for support > when issues reach a crisis point — and well before a Veteran is at risk of suicide. [0] https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/About/AboutVeteransCrisisLine.aspx https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/About/AboutVeteransCrisis...
    - gohrt 10y ago
      Splitting semantic hairs. The name changed, but the phone number didn't; the goal is still suicide prevention, but with an attempt to avoid the stigma that comes with "suicide" in the name.
      - Noseshine 10y ago
        It is not "splitting hairs"! Did you read the article? There is a difference between acute suicide prevention and general prevention! You would not expect the kind of reaction that he got when calling this hotline, because they don't assume an immediate case of suicide that they have to send police to without delay!
    - stonemetal 10y ago
      I would agree that they handle more than suicide response, but I would disagree that they are not primarily suicide response. If you call not in immediate crisis it sounds like they are going to refer you to the closest suicide prevention coordinator. From their when to call page: >If you’re thinking of hurting yourself, looking for ways to kill yourself, or becoming self-destructive, don’t continue to face it alone. Contact the Veterans Crisis Line immediately... >For Veterans NOT in immediate crisis: >Help is always available. Suicide Prevention Coordinators are at all VA Medical Centers (VAMCs) nationwide and work closely with Veterans dealing with mental health conditions and with difficult life events and experiences. https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhenToCall.aspx https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhenToCall.aspx
mikeash 10y ago
He wasn't suicidal, he just called the suicide hotline by accident. I'm not too surprised that the suicide hotline had trouble handling someone who wasn't suicidal. I called one once, trying to figure out how to help a mentally ill person who had been e-mailing me. They weren't exactly the appropriate place to call, but this person was in another country and they were the first people I could think of to at least point me in the right direction. They did help, but they also kept asking me questions like, "does this make you suicidal?" Strange experience, although it did work out fine in the end for me.
altendo 10y ago
He called the right number. The Veterans' Crisis Line and National Suicide Hotline are the same phone numbers (1-800-273-8255). When you call that number, you need to press 1 at the audio prompt to switch over to the line specific to veterans.

tracker1 10y ago

Nice to see the courts doing the right thing here... While I feel that most Police Officers are mostly good, and that a lot of the anti-police rhetoric exceeds reasonable; I do believe it's become a systemic issue wrt Police organizations exceeding their positions and violating the rights of the people they are meant to serve.

jrs235 10y ago
From the comments on the site: "One of the facts that bothers me most -- other than the officers behavior -- is that this comes from the APPEALS court. The District court apparently found no problem with the violation of his constitutional rights."
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  Not necessarily? It seems reasonable the MPD could & would have appealed if the district ruled against, especially given this case hadn't made national media. And although there were egregious comments made, this is the kind of situation where precedent and judicial restraint almost always ends up favoring the PD. Edit: District court did rule in MPD's favor. Which isn't surprising of course. Still, wouldn't have been surprised if MPD appealed had it gone against them, for above mentioned reasons.
  - jrs235 10y ago
    Matthew Corrigan is the Appellant meaning he was the one appealing the lower courts decision.
  - vilhelm_s 10y ago
    The court opinion is linked in the first paragraph of the article. It begins > [Corrigan] now appeals the grant of summary judgment to the defendants, challenging the district court’s rulings that there was no constitutional violation and that the officers were entitled to qualified immunity. Also interesting is how close this case was: the appeals court panel was split 2-1. The dissenting judge agrees that there was a constitutional violation, but says this law was not "clearly established" so the officers should have immunity. It goes to show how low the qualified immunity bar is.

libeclipse 10y ago

The police officers' behaviour in the situation was inexcusable, but the bias and anti-police rhetoric in the article is excessive.

SubiculumCode 10y ago
If police use excessive force and fuck a guy's constitutional 'bullshit' then they can stand some more 'excessive, yet Constitutionally protected bullshit' in return. phew.
smitherfield 10y ago
I wouldn't even call it inexcusable. The police are allowed to enter a private residence to prevent a person from harming themselves or others, and they had received a report, which they had no reason to believe was untrue, stating that the guy was suicidal and had a gun.
- libeclipse 10y ago
  I agree that it's not solely the police's fault. The fault rather lies in the whole chain that led up to the events.
- coldcode 10y ago
  Once, maybe. The second time is the unconstitutional behavior and will result in the city paying millions of dollars.
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    Which is sad because the public gets screwed by them twice.
    - mcguire 10y ago
      The nice thing about democracy is that you get the government you deserve.
- 10y ago

StanislavPetrov 10y ago

The real problem here is that these cops were not immediately arrested for home invasion and the abuse of his Constitutional rights. Why is this limited to a civil suit? These cops acted unlawfully and unconstitutionally and should be criminally charged.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
Ha, you must not be from around here. Don't get me wrong, I agree in principle, but an on-duty cop getting arrested AT THE SCENE of their misconduct? Sadly, it's impossible to imagine. Even when they kill someone in the most egregious circumstances, they're immediately given a celebratory cigarette, wrapped up in a blanket, passed off to union handlers, and coddled for at least 24 hours before even having to acknowledge that they might have done something wrong.
- baldfat 10y ago
  Unions are not the problem. Union can only work within the policies in place. The problem is with those policies.
  - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
    Didn't say they were the problem, just pointing out that that's what happens. But I don't agree with your second statement. Unions heavily influence those policies during collective bargaining.
clarkmoody 10y ago
That would require a widespread acceptance of libertarian ideals of justice, which is not present in society. People respond to incentives. Giving any individual any sort of immunity against laws that apply to everyone else will ultimately lead to the worst abuses. How many will we never hear about? This sort of story will continue to appear until there is a systemic change.
- 10y ago

Neliquat 10y ago

This is the problem with American LEOs. Not racism, but a basic contempt for the system.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
I agree, though I would say the contempt is not consciously cultivated - and one certainly doesn't become a cop if one has strong anti-establishment beliefs. Rather, I think it comes from the dissonance introduced by internalizing the 'warrior mentality' which creates a fantastical perception of the cop's reality as an endless war against unremitting criminality. In such a reality, the barriers created by "constitutional bullshit" could very well be the difference between life and death to the warrior, who is taught that they and their comrades survival is the most important goal at all times. So they come to resent such checks on their power as being imposed by clueless bureaucrats and overly idealistic citizens who don't appreciate the harsh reality of life on the battlefield.
Beltiras 10y ago
Don't think this is a uniquely American problem. Icelandic police just got handed a sentence for stripsearching a 16 year old girl.
- belovedeagle 10y ago
  > just got handed a sentence And here we see why the current American problem is uniquely American — because that would never have happened.
  - hga 10y ago
    Really?? https://www.google.com/search?q=strip+search+texas+road https://www.google.com/search?q=strip+search+texas+road And not just in Texas, see some of the articles. ADDED: I missed that, to date, to my knowledge and from what I've just been reviewing, none of the police in these cases have been so much as criminally charged. Yes, that indeed shows it didn't happen in the US.

Beltiras 10y ago

I'm just glad the cops didn't kill the dog. My first thought when reading about his dog was "Oh no!".

Beltiras 10y ago
There's even a blog about police murdering dogs. https://dogmurders.wordpress.com/ https://dogmurders.wordpress.com/
curried_haskell 10y ago
I had the same thought... half expecting the cops to execute his dog.

ryanlol 10y ago

The other cops. You know, the decent human beings that somehow ended up working as police officers. If you can't find any of those, we might as well just shoot all the cops.

mistercow 10y ago
I wish you hadn't advocated violence, because your first sentence raised a good point. Where were the good cops, who we are assured comprise the majority, and who should have arrested these allegedly rare "bad apples"?
- ryanlol 10y ago
  If there is no good cops then what we have is an armed gang going around robbing and shooting people on the street. Violence has always been considered an OK solution to that. Of course, one would hope that the idea that there exists no good cops to arrest the bad cops is as absurd as it sounds. When you take a look though, you'll quickly realise that internally the good cops are the "bad apples". To be fair, this is all probably just the natural outcome of how police departments are built. Putting people in these positions of power with no system built to effectively scrutinise their actions is inevitably going to lead to large scale corruption.
- pyre 10y ago
  Probably keeping their heads low because once you "turn" on another cop -- even if that cop is shooting up a crowd of people with a machine gun while eating babies -- other cops feel that they can't trust you anymore. If they make a mistake, any mistake, you will just "tattle" on them.
- dllthomas 10y ago
  If we are to take the idiom seriously, the good cops (the rest of the barrel) are spoiled by the rare bad apples.
sctb 10y ago
We detached this flagged subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12979154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12979154.

jknoepfler 10y ago

The very idea that the police would return to the house without cause or warrant and search it - which is a grotesque constitutional violation - reflects an attitude of hostility and opposition to the community the police are supposed to literally "protect and serve." I'm increasingly of the belief that the domestic police in the United States shouldn't even be called a force, they should be called a service. They should not carry firearms, and they should not receive primarily military training. They should be well paid and receive aggressive financial incentives to continue their education. They should always be wearing a body cam when on duty. There will always be a need for armed police at some point, but that point is not the streets, and not daily response to mundane events.

gohrt 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
dforrestwilson1 10y ago
One caveat to this: from the data I've seen a lot of these issues revolve around specific communities. Please keep in mind that police forces are not national, but rather local.
- gohrt 10y ago
  They are local, but we see patterns repeated nationally.
  - pyre 10y ago
    We also see some of the same patterns internationally. One might even venture a guess that the power the is inherently given to perform police duties has a universal appeal towards abuse that affects many humans in the same way...
    - soundwave106 10y ago
      Which is why I see it less as an American police problem versus an American police culture problem. The bad cop stereotype is universal. But America's current police culture in my opinion encourages bad cop behavior. The culture is way too military-oriented versus community oriented at the moment. It is hard to "protect and serve" your community if you are always at "war" with some "enemy". This case is a perfect example of that.

Kenji 10y ago

Having mental health problems is dangerous. Once again it shows that you must not let the state know in any way, shape or form, or else you can expect that they take rights away from you.

zekevermillion 10y ago

Very sad that someone calling with PTSD did not get help, but the opposite. 4th amendment violations happen all the time. It's good to see justice done here, the system worked (eventually). The upshot of this story is not so much that the police messed up, as occasionally happens with treagic result -- it is that veterans still are not getting quality care.

FilterSweep 10y ago

One thing not discussed yet here is that it also appears to me the National Suicide Hotline isn't even handling their calls correctly. I'm clearly no suicide prevention expert, but questioning the caller on drug use, repeatedly demanding to put weapons (that are not even present) away, then calling a militant police force upon no response, shows that the Hotline isn't really being the sympathetic role they were initially intended to be. As bad as this situation has been for veterans, it brings to light how poorly (IMO) they are handling citizens reaching out for help as well.

Bartweiss 10y ago
This stood out to me as well. The drug use question is a reasonable one, at least in terms of active use. It has a significant impact on how you want to talk to someone, how at-risk they are, and yes, on what the police should be aware of if they're eventually contacted. It shouldn't ever go further if the person doesn't need a police visit, though. Demanding that he "say the guns are down" sounds like stupid and alarming legalism. It strikes me as someone reading a script, unable to deal with an answer of "they were never up to begin with, and are locked away, can we move on". And the whole thing... yes, the police can help with suicides. Yes, someone hanging up without explanation is a bad sign. But you can't fail to help people, then assume they're unstable for hanging up on you, then make wild and unjustified claims to the police.
- mcguire 10y ago
  It stood out to me as well. As an initial thought, I would have expected the hotline to operate under the same privacy regulations as any other medical facility. At least in the absence of any warning otherwise.

joesmo 10y ago

This is why it's a terrible idea in the US to tell anyone about your problems, especially mental problems. Help is NOT out there unless you're extremely lucky and rich. Most likely, there are a bunch of goons like in this article waiting to pick you up, beat you up, and drop you off at the nearest jail. That's if they don't just kill you outright. And the uninformed still wonder why we have so many problems with mental health and suicide in the US, a place where seeking help--even by accident--is likely to make things worse or even lead to death.

altendo 10y ago
> Help is NOT out there unless you're extremely lucky and rich There is, for sure. There are crisis centers that don't respond like that. They may not be common - so maybe some luck is involved - but there are people out there trying to help others.

altendo 10y ago

This is hard to read. I volunteer at a crisis center, and just reading the description of how the phone volunteer handled the call made me cringe. In my experience, you don't call the cops just because they call the suicide hotline and have guns - I've experienced instances where callers call and aren't suicidal. I'd need a clear sense of intent before going out of my way to do that. I really hope this was just a one-off thing, and not at all how volunteers (if they are volunteers at all) treat callers on the suicide hotline.

mcguire 10y ago
Do your clients know that you may call the police if you get a sense of intent?
- altendo 10y ago
  If I perceive an imminent likelihood of an attempt, I'll generally start trying to get a location from them - it's not subtle, they'll know. Sometimes people will give it, other times they resist for whatever reason. For those that resist I will process that feeling that they have and then try again. They may even ask if I'll contact police, in which case I can't lie to them. Ultimately I may _never_ get a location, or I'll have an extremely ill-defined location - it's always up to the caller if that is information they want to give.
  - altendo 10y ago
    clarification: if it gets to the point where I suspect an attempt is likely, or if an attempt is happening, I will start working towards attempting to get location information. The first thing I usually do, however, is help the caller process their feelings to help build trust upfront, even in cases of high suicidality. Speed is of the essence though in certain circumstances.

ashmud 10y ago

News story from 2012: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/may/23/miller-iraq-vet-brutalized-over-guns-dc/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/may/23/miller-...

altendo 10y ago

the article fails to clarify this, but the number for the Veterans' Crisis Line and the National Suicide Hotline are the same (1-800-273-8255). When you call that number, you are prompted to press 1 to be redirected to the veterans line. In this case, Mr. Corrigan likely missed the prompt and got sent to the suicide hotline - a not uncommon experience for veterans.

mcguire 10y ago
Is there a notice that the National Suicide Hotline will report your call to your local police? Does the Veterans' line have the same policy?
- mcguire 10y ago
  Answering part of my own question: nope. https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhatToExpect.aspx https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/GetHelp/WhatToExpect.aspx
- altendo 10y ago
  It depends entirely on where your call to the suicide hotline gets routed. I won't contact police unless there's an immediate threat to the caller or to someone else (in cases of abuse/homicide, the caller might not be the one in danger), anything short of that I won't. This, however, is how my crisis center handles such calls. I can't speak for every organization that takes calls from the suicide hotline.

VaChildAbuse 10y ago

Well this is nice to read. I have PTSD, and attempted suicide three weeks ago. I was having a big problem last night and almost rang the same number. I'm glad that I didn't. So next time I'll probably just get into a bag, or jump from a higher place than last time.

ImTalking 10y ago
Very sorry to hear this, mate. With depression, we lose sight of the small wins in life like a beautiful day, or a walk on the beach. Society measures success by wealth/status but individually, deep down, all of us know that the accumulation of small wins is the ticket. My son has asperger's and this is what I try to instil in him. I hope you're OK.

ccvannorman 10y ago

I read through this article and was shocked at the level of expectation for constitutional violation built into the police departments "standard operating procedures." Happy to see the court wasn't having it, and hope this trend continues to clamp down on this department and others who believe or behave similarly.