8 ms·

“My position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated”

binaryapparatus 10y ago
Q. I hear you no longer work for Apple; is that true? A. Correct. I joined Apple in January of 1997, almost twenty years ago, because of my profound belief that “the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” That credo remains my truth to this day. Recently, I was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons. Consequently, I am no longer employed by Apple Inc. But, I still believe my credo to be as true today as ever. Because who needs or expects anything remotely 'pro' at Apple any more?
- mc32 10y ago
  >"I was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons" At one of my former employers, when they wanted to get rid of someone nicely, that is provide them their due retirement benefits, etc. They'd eliminate the position. Few months later they'd come up with a new position with similar function with a new person in charge. At least they were nice about it, I suppose, but appeared quite transparent.
- endgame 10y ago
  >“the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” A great vision, and one that I share. But I think that it's also a vision that is completely incompatible with Apple.
  - Razengan 10y ago
    Automation in macOS appears to be remaining as strong as ever. What makes you think it has suffered? In fact, I believe macOS gives you more control than Windows.
    - tedmiston 10y ago
      As strong as ever? Script Editor is practically abandoned... The guide about providing scripting definitions (making your program accessible via AppleScript) was last updated in 2008. [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ScriptableCocoaApplications/RevisionHistory.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002164-CH2-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Co...
      - Razengan 10y ago
        It received an entire new language, and it still works, how is it abandoned? The state and currency of Apple's documentation is a different matter altogether. It's seriously outdated in a lot of places and in a need of a major overhaul.
        tedmiston 10y ago
        The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. I have a strong premonition that JavaScript was added to potentially discontinue AppleScript. The revision history of the AppleScript docs is the third reason.
        Razengan 10y ago
        > The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. In what ways does it need changing? What improvements do you have in mind? I can only think of autocomplete, but the object browser/dictionary helps in its stead.
        tedmiston 10y ago
        I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling me, but without being pedantic, it's a learning environment that lacks standard IDE features, including such basic things as line numbers and a context click for go to function definition. As far as I'm aware there is no third party package ecosystem for extending its limitations either.
- mikeyouse 10y ago
  Just for fun / boredom, if he was granted $100,000 worth of shares every year since 1997 and reinvested his dividends after they started paying out, he'd have somewhere near 800,000 shares today worth nearly $85 million.
  - hueving 10y ago
    Holding onto shares you are granted is one of the most reckless things you can do financially. Whenever you are granted shares, ask yourself the following question. If you were given the equivalent amount in a cash bonus, would you use that cash bonus to buy stock in a single company? For every Apple example, there are 100+ cases where people held onto their shares and rode them right into company bankruptcy, at which point they lost all of their bonus AND their job.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      The highway of failures in Silicon Valley is littered with burned out husks of companies. They should put up little memorials to them. You could reflect on these things while coming into the lobby. "Huh, Pets.com and Flooz both had office space here once..."
      - techdragon 10y ago
        Perhaps they could be a sort of memorial highway, every few miles "sponsored"/"in memorial of" a different dead company... so all the employees can be reminded what might await them at the the other end of their commute.
      - aptwebapps 10y ago
        Maybe an AR app with overlays of old signage ... makes me wonder if anyone's done much with AR with historical data. Could be neat.
  - Johnny555 10y ago
    Does Apple give anyone that's not a senior executive nearly that many shares? If they do, I need to go return a recruiter call immediately.
crack-the-code 10y ago
Does that mean that he was effectively fired? I can't help but think there must be some additional context as to why he was terminated and not transitioned to another role (assuming my understanding of the situation is correct). Is Apple really doing that bad?
- kasey_junk 10y ago
  Why would you think that? It's relatively uncommon for companies to transition employees when they decide to remove whole business functions.
  - maxxxxx 10y ago
    It seems stupid that they just throw away talented people. And then they pay millions for talented people through buying startups.
    - addicted 10y ago
      Well, buying failing startups because of their engineers also helps pad exec investments in those startups. Keeping an employee does not.
    - rhizome 10y ago
      Penny-wise and pound-foolish perhaps, but Apple absolutely doesn't have a cash flow problem that would get in the way of any flavor of these decisions.
    - Naritai 10y ago
      Rarely if ever are the laid-off people talented in the same area that those who are acquihired are.
    - mgkimsal 10y ago
      people have different talents and skills that are valued differently over time.
  - serf 10y ago
cpr 10y ago
Sad day. Sal is and has been the biggest cheerleader for macOS automation technologies ever.
sarreph 10y ago
What a shame. I really thought we'd see some interesting developments in the macOS automation space, as only a couple of years ago JS was introduced as a scripting language alongside AScript. However, this is worrying as there are so so many individuals who rely on bespoke, fine-grained task automation (and not just glossy consumer apps) to use their Mac productively.
- matt4077 10y ago
  I'm quite happy with hammerspoon for MacOS GUI automation. I'm using it to collect the screenshots for a hyper(term) theme gallery (https://hyperthemes.matthi.coffee https://hyperthemes.matthi.coffee). Although now I'm not sure how much hammerspoon relies on the official APIs.
  - i336_ 10y ago
    Two things: 1. You have "https:/" (<-- one "/") in the hyper.io link 2. "server can't find hyper.io: SERVFAIL" I'm interested in terminals, but this has an impossible-to-Google name (for obvious reasons). The themes look really cool though!
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Apple is intensely focused on monetization of anything now that the iPhone is turning into a more mature (i.e. Lower growth) product. Do you really expect that a company that is monetizing power brick extension cables in $3000 laptops and USB cables in $700 phones is going to continue to give away the store with things that deliver high value at low cost?
- tedmiston 10y ago
  I think JavaScript was added and AppleScript Editor renamed to Script Editor as Apple's hint that AppleScript is a dead language. Automator is what it is (I don't use it), but we have to be realistic in admitting it never really caught on. Even drag-and-drop GUI programming is too intimidating to the average user. I hope this is not a harbinger of Apple giving up on user automation entirely.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
r00fus 10y ago
Sad to hear about Sal's departure (I'm not going to speculate on the reasoning). What I guessing as I read into this is that Apple is likely moving towards cloud-based everything, and de-emphasizing OS-level functionality that's not tied to cloud.
Jerry2 10y ago
Apple's plan for the future does not include Mac or MacOS. They've been treating macOS as a second-tier OS for years and have been barely updating it. And when they do update it, they just backport some iOS features to it. You can also tell that macOS is not a priority because security updates for same kernel issues always come weeks after they've been fixed on iOS. And let's not even get into Mac hardware and how there's no more true Pro options and how rarely they even update them. Cook's infamous quote says it all about the future of Mac: >“I think if you’re looking at a PC, why would you buy a PC anymore? No really, why would you buy one?” – Tim Cook, talking about the iPad Pro Requiem for the Mac is in order.
- mikek 10y ago
  "PC" in Apple lingo refers to Windows machines. http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/cook-why-would-you-buy-a-pc-anymore http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/cook-why-would-y...
  - 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
    You're not wrong about "PC", but Cook was pretty clearly talking about a larger market shift away from laptops and desktops: > Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones. I don't really buy the downplaying of the "many, many people" wording in the linked blog post. I think the fact that Cook was silent about Mac while still bothering to mention "other than their phones" is a kind of statement in itself.
  - blinkingled 10y ago
    But does that make any sense? Why would people not need PCs but need Macs?
    - r00fus 10y ago
      To sync/backup and write code for their iOS devices? Actually the real answer is to avoid Microsoft. Microsoft - remove telemetry and you'll have me back.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
WesBrownSQL 10y ago
Hey, 20 years come get your reduction prize. This guys salary is probably a rounding error on a spreadsheet but what he knows about Apple in any line of their business would be worth the money. Just a shame.
mevile 10y ago
> was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons. Consequently. Business reasons to not have a head of automation for an Operating System? It truly could be the case, but honestly I'd be ok if someone investigated companies like Apple to see if there's an illegal pattern of letting go people over the age of 40.
- jballanc 10y ago
  I can't speak for the Apple of today, but when I left Apple in 2010 there were more wizened, "gray-beard" programmers working for Apple than at probably all the SOMA startups combined. Of all the things you could accuse Apple of (and there are plenty), I think ageism has got to be near the bottom of that list.
bootload 10y ago
"UNIX CLI (shell, python, ruby, perl), System Services, Apple Events (JavaScript, AppleScript, AppleScriptObj-C, Scripting Bridge), Automator, Apple Configurator (AppleScript, Automator), and Application scripting support in Photos, iWork, Finder, Mail, and other Apple applications." I can speculate why Apple has made this decision. Notice the amount of siri integration into macOS? This theoretically makes automation by code the black sheep in Apples grand plan. Do away with code, push voice.
- cauterized 10y ago
  Yup, that's exactly what my company's open plan office is missing. 50 people muttering aloud at their computers all day.
  - blacksmith_tb 10y ago
    And accidentally automating each other's machines...
  - bootload 10y ago
    "The integration of an at least partially voice-controlled intelligent digital assistant into a desktop, laptop, and/or tablet computer environment provides additional capabilities to the digital assistant, and enhances the usability and capabilities of the desktop, laptop, and/or tablet computer." "Intelligent Digital Assistant in a Desktop Environment", 2013 Apple patent ~ http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=2&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=(345%2F473.CCLS.+AND+20140807.PD.)&OS=ccl/345/473+and+pd/8/7/2014&RS=(CCL/345/473+AND+PD/20140807) http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    I can't wait for the asshole 50 feet away whose quiet voice sounds like a hotdog guy at a baseball game yells "Hey Siri" and 30 computers respond.
- redial 10y ago
  Voice control is not automation, you just replace using your mouse/keyboard to perform actions with using your voice to perform them, but you still have to do each one. Automation is having the computer perform multiple seemingly disconnected tasks one after the other without supervision. How you start the automated workflow is irrelevant.
carsongross 10y ago
Remember this the next time you hear corporations complain about ruthless employees who are willing to jump ship for mere money.
draw_down 10y ago
Unfortunately they have been neglecting this aspect of the Mac for a long time. It's a real shame because it used to be a solid advantage of the Mac over other OSs. Recently I looked to see if Automator is still on my system, I was surprised it's still included. They clearly don't care about this part of macOS and it's such a shame.
- matt4077 10y ago
  It's there, it works, you haven't looked at it in years. Apple may or may not care about it, but apparently neither do you. Automation probably gets us excited about ideas to streamline our lives, but nobody ever gets around to it. I certainly hope it remains well-supported because there are people who actually need it (accessibility comes to mind). Also because I did actually just use it in a toy project.
- nicky0 10y ago
  It can't be all that important to you if you couldn't even remember if it was installed.
bluthru 10y ago
This is a great way to scare pro users after a lukewarm reaction to the latest MacBook Pro's.

Q. I hear you no longer work for Apple; is that true? A. Correct. I joined Apple in January of 1997, almost twenty years ago, because of my profound belief that “the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” That credo remains my truth to this day. Recently, I was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons. Consequently, I am no longer employed by Apple Inc. But, I still believe my credo to be as true today as ever. Because who needs or expects anything remotely 'pro' at Apple any more?

mc32 10y ago
>"I was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons" At one of my former employers, when they wanted to get rid of someone nicely, that is provide them their due retirement benefits, etc. They'd eliminate the position. Few months later they'd come up with a new position with similar function with a new person in charge. At least they were nice about it, I suppose, but appeared quite transparent.
endgame 10y ago
>“the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” A great vision, and one that I share. But I think that it's also a vision that is completely incompatible with Apple.
- Razengan 10y ago
  Automation in macOS appears to be remaining as strong as ever. What makes you think it has suffered? In fact, I believe macOS gives you more control than Windows.
  - tedmiston 10y ago
    As strong as ever? Script Editor is practically abandoned... The guide about providing scripting definitions (making your program accessible via AppleScript) was last updated in 2008. [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ScriptableCocoaApplications/RevisionHistory.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002164-CH2-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Co...
    - Razengan 10y ago
      It received an entire new language, and it still works, how is it abandoned? The state and currency of Apple's documentation is a different matter altogether. It's seriously outdated in a lot of places and in a need of a major overhaul.
      - tedmiston 10y ago
        The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. I have a strong premonition that JavaScript was added to potentially discontinue AppleScript. The revision history of the AppleScript docs is the third reason.
        Razengan 10y ago
        > The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. In what ways does it need changing? What improvements do you have in mind? I can only think of autocomplete, but the object browser/dictionary helps in its stead.
        tedmiston 10y ago
        I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling me, but without being pedantic, it's a learning environment that lacks standard IDE features, including such basic things as line numbers and a context click for go to function definition. As far as I'm aware there is no third party package ecosystem for extending its limitations either.
mikeyouse 10y ago
Just for fun / boredom, if he was granted $100,000 worth of shares every year since 1997 and reinvested his dividends after they started paying out, he'd have somewhere near 800,000 shares today worth nearly $85 million.
- hueving 10y ago
  Holding onto shares you are granted is one of the most reckless things you can do financially. Whenever you are granted shares, ask yourself the following question. If you were given the equivalent amount in a cash bonus, would you use that cash bonus to buy stock in a single company? For every Apple example, there are 100+ cases where people held onto their shares and rode them right into company bankruptcy, at which point they lost all of their bonus AND their job.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    The highway of failures in Silicon Valley is littered with burned out husks of companies. They should put up little memorials to them. You could reflect on these things while coming into the lobby. "Huh, Pets.com and Flooz both had office space here once..."
    - techdragon 10y ago
      Perhaps they could be a sort of memorial highway, every few miles "sponsored"/"in memorial of" a different dead company... so all the employees can be reminded what might await them at the the other end of their commute.
    - aptwebapps 10y ago
      Maybe an AR app with overlays of old signage ... makes me wonder if anyone's done much with AR with historical data. Could be neat.
- Johnny555 10y ago
  Does Apple give anyone that's not a senior executive nearly that many shares? If they do, I need to go return a recruiter call immediately.

crack-the-code 10y ago

Does that mean that he was effectively fired? I can't help but think there must be some additional context as to why he was terminated and not transitioned to another role (assuming my understanding of the situation is correct). Is Apple really doing that bad?

kasey_junk 10y ago
Why would you think that? It's relatively uncommon for companies to transition employees when they decide to remove whole business functions.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  It seems stupid that they just throw away talented people. And then they pay millions for talented people through buying startups.
  - addicted 10y ago
    Well, buying failing startups because of their engineers also helps pad exec investments in those startups. Keeping an employee does not.
  - rhizome 10y ago
    Penny-wise and pound-foolish perhaps, but Apple absolutely doesn't have a cash flow problem that would get in the way of any flavor of these decisions.
  - Naritai 10y ago
    Rarely if ever are the laid-off people talented in the same area that those who are acquihired are.
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    people have different talents and skills that are valued differently over time.
- serf 10y ago

cpr 10y ago

Sad day. Sal is and has been the biggest cheerleader for macOS automation technologies ever.

sarreph 10y ago

What a shame. I really thought we'd see some interesting developments in the macOS automation space, as only a couple of years ago JS was introduced as a scripting language alongside AScript. However, this is worrying as there are so so many individuals who rely on bespoke, fine-grained task automation (and not just glossy consumer apps) to use their Mac productively.

matt4077 10y ago
I'm quite happy with hammerspoon for MacOS GUI automation. I'm using it to collect the screenshots for a hyper(term) theme gallery (https://hyperthemes.matthi.coffee https://hyperthemes.matthi.coffee). Although now I'm not sure how much hammerspoon relies on the official APIs.
- i336_ 10y ago
  Two things: 1. You have "https:/" (<-- one "/") in the hyper.io link 2. "server can't find hyper.io: SERVFAIL" I'm interested in terminals, but this has an impossible-to-Google name (for obvious reasons). The themes look really cool though!
Spooky23 10y ago
Apple is intensely focused on monetization of anything now that the iPhone is turning into a more mature (i.e. Lower growth) product. Do you really expect that a company that is monetizing power brick extension cables in $3000 laptops and USB cables in $700 phones is going to continue to give away the store with things that deliver high value at low cost?
tedmiston 10y ago
I think JavaScript was added and AppleScript Editor renamed to Script Editor as Apple's hint that AppleScript is a dead language. Automator is what it is (I don't use it), but we have to be realistic in admitting it never really caught on. Even drag-and-drop GUI programming is too intimidating to the average user. I hope this is not a harbinger of Apple giving up on user automation entirely.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

r00fus 10y ago

Sad to hear about Sal's departure (I'm not going to speculate on the reasoning). What I guessing as I read into this is that Apple is likely moving towards cloud-based everything, and de-emphasizing OS-level functionality that's not tied to cloud.

Jerry2 10y ago

Apple's plan for the future does not include Mac or MacOS. They've been treating macOS as a second-tier OS for years and have been barely updating it. And when they do update it, they just backport some iOS features to it. You can also tell that macOS is not a priority because security updates for same kernel issues always come weeks after they've been fixed on iOS. And let's not even get into Mac hardware and how there's no more true Pro options and how rarely they even update them. Cook's infamous quote says it all about the future of Mac: >“I think if you’re looking at a PC, why would you buy a PC anymore? No really, why would you buy one?” – Tim Cook, talking about the iPad Pro Requiem for the Mac is in order.

mikek 10y ago
"PC" in Apple lingo refers to Windows machines. http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/cook-why-would-you-buy-a-pc-anymore http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/cook-why-would-y...
- 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
  You're not wrong about "PC", but Cook was pretty clearly talking about a larger market shift away from laptops and desktops: > Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones. I don't really buy the downplaying of the "many, many people" wording in the linked blog post. I think the fact that Cook was silent about Mac while still bothering to mention "other than their phones" is a kind of statement in itself.
- blinkingled 10y ago
  But does that make any sense? Why would people not need PCs but need Macs?
  - r00fus 10y ago
    To sync/backup and write code for their iOS devices? Actually the real answer is to avoid Microsoft. Microsoft - remove telemetry and you'll have me back.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

WesBrownSQL 10y ago

Hey, 20 years come get your reduction prize. This guys salary is probably a rounding error on a spreadsheet but what he knows about Apple in any line of their business would be worth the money. Just a shame.

mevile 10y ago

> was informed that my position as Product Manager of Automation Technologies was eliminated for business reasons. Consequently. Business reasons to not have a head of automation for an Operating System? It truly could be the case, but honestly I'd be ok if someone investigated companies like Apple to see if there's an illegal pattern of letting go people over the age of 40.

jballanc 10y ago
I can't speak for the Apple of today, but when I left Apple in 2010 there were more wizened, "gray-beard" programmers working for Apple than at probably all the SOMA startups combined. Of all the things you could accuse Apple of (and there are plenty), I think ageism has got to be near the bottom of that list.

bootload 10y ago

"UNIX CLI (shell, python, ruby, perl), System Services, Apple Events (JavaScript, AppleScript, AppleScriptObj-C, Scripting Bridge), Automator, Apple Configurator (AppleScript, Automator), and Application scripting support in Photos, iWork, Finder, Mail, and other Apple applications." I can speculate why Apple has made this decision. Notice the amount of siri integration into macOS? This theoretically makes automation by code the black sheep in Apples grand plan. Do away with code, push voice.

cauterized 10y ago
Yup, that's exactly what my company's open plan office is missing. 50 people muttering aloud at their computers all day.
- blacksmith_tb 10y ago
  And accidentally automating each other's machines...
- bootload 10y ago
  "The integration of an at least partially voice-controlled intelligent digital assistant into a desktop, laptop, and/or tablet computer environment provides additional capabilities to the digital assistant, and enhances the usability and capabilities of the desktop, laptop, and/or tablet computer." "Intelligent Digital Assistant in a Desktop Environment", 2013 Apple patent ~ http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=2&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=(345%2F473.CCLS.+AND+20140807.PD.)&OS=ccl/345/473+and+pd/8/7/2014&RS=(CCL/345/473+AND+PD/20140807) http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...
- Spooky23 10y ago
  I can't wait for the asshole 50 feet away whose quiet voice sounds like a hotdog guy at a baseball game yells "Hey Siri" and 30 computers respond.
redial 10y ago
Voice control is not automation, you just replace using your mouse/keyboard to perform actions with using your voice to perform them, but you still have to do each one. Automation is having the computer perform multiple seemingly disconnected tasks one after the other without supervision. How you start the automated workflow is irrelevant.

carsongross 10y ago

Remember this the next time you hear corporations complain about ruthless employees who are willing to jump ship for mere money.

draw_down 10y ago

Unfortunately they have been neglecting this aspect of the Mac for a long time. It's a real shame because it used to be a solid advantage of the Mac over other OSs. Recently I looked to see if Automator is still on my system, I was surprised it's still included. They clearly don't care about this part of macOS and it's such a shame.

matt4077 10y ago
It's there, it works, you haven't looked at it in years. Apple may or may not care about it, but apparently neither do you. Automation probably gets us excited about ideas to streamline our lives, but nobody ever gets around to it. I certainly hope it remains well-supported because there are people who actually need it (accessibility comes to mind). Also because I did actually just use it in a toy project.
nicky0 10y ago
It can't be all that important to you if you couldn't even remember if it was installed.

bluthru 10y ago

This is a great way to scare pro users after a lukewarm reaction to the latest MacBook Pro's.