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A thought: Alan Turing died when he was 41. Anything Turing would have invented between 41 and his natural death are things lost to society because of the perse

by tsally 16y ago

A thought: Alan Turing died when he was 41. Anything Turing would have invented between 41 and his natural death are things lost to society because of the persecution of homosexuals. What an incredible cost.

caryme 16y ago
Although I agree with you that Turing's death was an incredible loss, I wouldn't be so sure he would have died a natural death. Turing had considered suicide before, during his failed work on the Riemann hypothesis. At that time, he schemed up a suicide mechanism involving an apple and electrical wiring which he described in a letter to an old boyfriend. Turing was pretty eccentric, romanticized suicide (and was a little obsessed with this apple idea), and was in and out of depression. Mind you, I agree. I'm just not so sure Turing ever would have died naturally.
- rjurney 16y ago
  He uh... also tried to poison his PhD advisor.
  - bdr 16y ago
    You aren't thinking of Oppenheimer?
    - rjurney 16y ago
      Whoops, you're right :/
  - madair 16y ago
    Hopefully someone will fix this misinformation soon, and gaddammit dude, when you're going to accuse someone of attempted murder, do a little fact check and send along a reference link or something for crissakkes
    - rjurney 16y ago
      Whoops, you're right. I mixed him up with Oppenheimer.
bdr 16y ago
What if he'd just been an ordinary guy? I think the damage to his life and the lives of those who knew him is more important than what he would have invented.
- lincolnq 16y ago
  That doesn't seem obvious to me. Inventions can change many lives, but the scope of a person's social life is necessarily limited. Why do you say that?
  - sjs 16y ago
    I don't think any amount of human suffering is really worth some perceived progress. Not only because the progress will likely come around eventually anyway if it's for the better, but if we're trying to better humankind we shouldn't start by harming even a single human.
    - doug_m 16y ago
      Really? even Alexander Fleming before his accidental discovery of penicillin?
      - sjs 16y ago
        It's a fine line, but if the patients are willful participants then I guess that's a different story. If they are not willful then I'm unmoved on my stance.
- tsally 16y ago
  Just to be clear, subjecting someone of lesser brilliance (99.9999999% of the population) to Turing's treatment would be equally immoral. Seriously destabilizing a suicidal person is murder and on a moral level I don't believe in claiming that a particular murder is more or less immoral than another. Murder is murder and I don't think you can compare magnitudes. So if he had been an ordinary guy, his murder would still have been wrong on a moral level. I'm simply arguing that in addition to the usual costs of murder (felt in large part by the deceased family), society has borne an additional cost.
axod 16y ago
You make it sound like he was murdered because he was gay. I don't think it was quite that clear cut. I'm quite a believer in "if he hadn't done it, someone else would have" personally. I don't mean to belittle anyones contribution, but the idea that there's only one genius who can come up with something seems very unlikely to me. Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time.
- dazzawazza 16y ago
  Anyone who has ever discovered anything surely knows this? The world is full of curious minds. This doesn't belittle this individual curious mind but honour the millions of others.
- jules 16y ago
  > You make it sound like he was murdered because he was gay. I don't think it was quite that clear cut. Lets turn it around then. If he hadn't been gay, would he have been murdered? > Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time. Yeah, this is true. Even revolutionary ideas seem to show up at multiple places at the same time. So it seems that the state of knowledge at the time of invention matters a great deal.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >If he hadn't been gay, would he have been murdered? He committed suicide.
- devinj 16y ago
  Other people did do it, and even at nearly the exact same time. Turing just did it more convincingly. (See: Alonzo Church and the Lambda calculus).
  - eru 16y ago
    And Turing helped a lot with the War effort, building hardware (i.e. stuff you can kick) as well as developing theories.
defenestrator 16y ago
I didn't even know he was a homosexual. Nor does it matter.
- lukev 16y ago
  It mattered a lot to him.
  - sophacles 16y ago
    And the authorities at the time.
pbhjpbhj 16y ago
I've always assumed that Turing was bisexual, he certainly had a pretty intense relationship with his fiancee. I can't really understand how, if he was an openly gay man (as I've seen claimed) that he needed to make the confession that he did to his fiancee who he spent his leisure time and work time with; how is she couldn't know but everyone else did? He also appeared to be an ephebophile. I have a hypothesis that his sexual liaisons with teenagers were an attempt to recapture his relationship with his (sole and very close) friend that died when he was at boarding school.

by tsally 16y ago

caryme 16y ago

Although I agree with you that Turing's death was an incredible loss, I wouldn't be so sure he would have died a natural death. Turing had considered suicide before, during his failed work on the Riemann hypothesis. At that time, he schemed up a suicide mechanism involving an apple and electrical wiring which he described in a letter to an old boyfriend. Turing was pretty eccentric, romanticized suicide (and was a little obsessed with this apple idea), and was in and out of depression. Mind you, I agree. I'm just not so sure Turing ever would have died naturally.

rjurney 16y ago
He uh... also tried to poison his PhD advisor.
- bdr 16y ago
  You aren't thinking of Oppenheimer?
  - rjurney 16y ago
    Whoops, you're right :/
- madair 16y ago
  Hopefully someone will fix this misinformation soon, and gaddammit dude, when you're going to accuse someone of attempted murder, do a little fact check and send along a reference link or something for crissakkes
  - rjurney 16y ago
    Whoops, you're right. I mixed him up with Oppenheimer.

bdr 16y ago

What if he'd just been an ordinary guy? I think the damage to his life and the lives of those who knew him is more important than what he would have invented.

lincolnq 16y ago
That doesn't seem obvious to me. Inventions can change many lives, but the scope of a person's social life is necessarily limited. Why do you say that?
- sjs 16y ago
  I don't think any amount of human suffering is really worth some perceived progress. Not only because the progress will likely come around eventually anyway if it's for the better, but if we're trying to better humankind we shouldn't start by harming even a single human.
  - doug_m 16y ago
    Really? even Alexander Fleming before his accidental discovery of penicillin?
    - sjs 16y ago
      It's a fine line, but if the patients are willful participants then I guess that's a different story. If they are not willful then I'm unmoved on my stance.
tsally 16y ago
Just to be clear, subjecting someone of lesser brilliance (99.9999999% of the population) to Turing's treatment would be equally immoral. Seriously destabilizing a suicidal person is murder and on a moral level I don't believe in claiming that a particular murder is more or less immoral than another. Murder is murder and I don't think you can compare magnitudes. So if he had been an ordinary guy, his murder would still have been wrong on a moral level. I'm simply arguing that in addition to the usual costs of murder (felt in large part by the deceased family), society has borne an additional cost.

axod 16y ago

You make it sound like he was murdered because he was gay. I don't think it was quite that clear cut. I'm quite a believer in "if he hadn't done it, someone else would have" personally. I don't mean to belittle anyones contribution, but the idea that there's only one genius who can come up with something seems very unlikely to me. Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time.

dazzawazza 16y ago
Anyone who has ever discovered anything surely knows this? The world is full of curious minds. This doesn't belittle this individual curious mind but honour the millions of others.
jules 16y ago
> You make it sound like he was murdered because he was gay. I don't think it was quite that clear cut. Lets turn it around then. If he hadn't been gay, would he have been murdered? > Most inventions are 'discovered' by many people at around the same time. Yeah, this is true. Even revolutionary ideas seem to show up at multiple places at the same time. So it seems that the state of knowledge at the time of invention matters a great deal.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >If he hadn't been gay, would he have been murdered? He committed suicide.
devinj 16y ago
Other people did do it, and even at nearly the exact same time. Turing just did it more convincingly. (See: Alonzo Church and the Lambda calculus).
- eru 16y ago
  And Turing helped a lot with the War effort, building hardware (i.e. stuff you can kick) as well as developing theories.

defenestrator 16y ago

I didn't even know he was a homosexual. Nor does it matter.

lukev 16y ago
It mattered a lot to him.
- sophacles 16y ago
  And the authorities at the time.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago

I've always assumed that Turing was bisexual, he certainly had a pretty intense relationship with his fiancee. I can't really understand how, if he was an openly gay man (as I've seen claimed) that he needed to make the confession that he did to his fiancee who he spent his leisure time and work time with; how is she couldn't know but everyone else did? He also appeared to be an ephebophile. I have a hypothesis that his sexual liaisons with teenagers were an attempt to recapture his relationship with his (sole and very close) friend that died when he was at boarding school.