7 ms·

Mystery over Dutch WW2 shipwrecks vanished from Java Sea bed

61 points by willvarfar 10y ago

anc84 10y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/16/british-second-world-war-ships-illegal-scavenging-java-sea https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/16/british-second...
vermontdevil 10y ago
Wouldn't an earthquake have shifted the ships elsewhere? I'm just speculating here. Edit: Never mind. Saw the Guardian link which provides more info. I'm surprised there's capability to salvage that deep for large wrecks.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- q3r3qr3q 10y ago
  Could also be time travelers.
  - B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
    According to a John Varley SF story, those time travelers work more in about-to-crash airplanes, replacing live passengers with puppets in the nick of time. (I forget what they did with the recruits.)
- dvtv75 10y ago
  You should check out the Wiki article on the Soviet submarine K-219. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-219 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-219 Short version: after she went down, someone went down and ripped off the nuclear missile doors, and took several of her missiles directly from the tubes, at 6000 meters. I don't imagine too many countries had the technology to do that.
  - PerfectDlite 10y ago
    > ripped off the nuclear missile doors That's probably a result of missile(s) explosion, similar to explosion which resulted in her loss. Occam's razor, you know.
    - dvtv75 10y ago
      That's a good point, I didn't consider that. (Obviously!)
harveywi 10y ago
Did they investigate garbage collection as a possible explanation?
- Insanity 10y ago
  Did not expect this comment but it made me smile :D +1 to that!
ChuckMcM 10y ago
This bit surprised me: "Illegal salvaging of the wrecks for steel, aluminium and brass has become commonplace." I suppose it makes sense as these materials are easily reprocessed into a commodity that can be sold, but still the work involved relative to the available ships to be salvaged that are not underwater seems like it would make this financially infeasible to me. Then there is the whole "How the heck do you dismantle a ship underwater?" that is a discovery television show I'd probably record and watch. Edit: found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5k5j7EpFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5k5j7EpFQ which is an underwater cutting torch.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I've helped float a 70ft steel wreck off of the Caribbean Sea floor using second hand airbags that cost no more than a few thousand dollars (EDIT: You'll want to spend a bit more if this isn't just for fun). Physics is awesome, and the only cost is your time and the materials. Also, if you were only interested in the most valuable materials on the vessel that are accessible without entering a confined space, you'd just need a scuba rig (very low barrier to entry). I would definitely not attempt extensive disassembly underwater. Far more dangerous than floating the vessel and breaking it on shore, dry dock, low tide. EDIT: I thought I'd add why its not safe underwater. Help yourself to some Delta P nightmare fuel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEtbFm_CjE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEtbFm_CjE0 (also confined spaces, unstable underwater structures, etc)
  - schoen 10y ago
    Would you be willing to write up some more about your experiences with floating the wreck? I bet people here would find it very interesting!
    - dvtv75 10y ago
      Absolutely! It would be most interesting to hear some firsthand experiences.
      - 10y ago
joezydeco 10y ago
The pre-nuclear era steel would certainly be more valuable than post-war steel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
trhway 10y ago
it isn't just steel, there is also brass, etc. Anyway, having at least 2 metal hungry countries - India and China - right near by and knowing how in 199x some entrepreneurial souls salvaged and sold for scrap to India some relatively modern (back then) USSR navy ships left in Africa after collapse of the USSR i'm not at all surprised .. i mean it is just 70m depth. And we're talking about area where ships are regularly "lost" - at least when it comes to registration paperwork - and where a whole large passenger plane was lost recently. So no surprise that one more illegal salvage operation went unnoticed or looked unremarkable if by chance there happened somebody around to look at it at all.
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  Or was done by the government itself.
- realityking 10y ago
  Do you have a link about those USSR ships left in Africa? I'd love to learn more about them.
- roywiggins 10y ago
  My favorite missing craft is the 727 cargo plane that was flown out of Angola and never seen or heard from again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Boeing_727-223_disappearance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Boeing_727-223_disappeara...
verytrivial 10y ago
Satellite imagery? The salvage ships would be 10s of metres in length and would have loitered for days. Might give some clues (but I'm not sure what you could do with them...)
fred_is_fred 10y ago
Wouldn't a ship underwater for 70 years be covered in coral and/or rusted or somehow otherwise modified so that it's hard to salvage?
dba7dba 10y ago
That is messed up. What happened to the remains that were surely in the wreck? So wrong.

61 points by willvarfar 10y ago

anc84 10y ago

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/16/british-second-world-war-ships-illegal-scavenging-java-sea https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/16/british-second...

vermontdevil 10y ago

Wouldn't an earthquake have shifted the ships elsewhere? I'm just speculating here. Edit: Never mind. Saw the Guardian link which provides more info. I'm surprised there's capability to salvage that deep for large wrecks.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
q3r3qr3q 10y ago
Could also be time travelers.
- B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
  According to a John Varley SF story, those time travelers work more in about-to-crash airplanes, replacing live passengers with puppets in the nick of time. (I forget what they did with the recruits.)
dvtv75 10y ago
You should check out the Wiki article on the Soviet submarine K-219. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-219 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-219 Short version: after she went down, someone went down and ripped off the nuclear missile doors, and took several of her missiles directly from the tubes, at 6000 meters. I don't imagine too many countries had the technology to do that.
- PerfectDlite 10y ago
  > ripped off the nuclear missile doors That's probably a result of missile(s) explosion, similar to explosion which resulted in her loss. Occam's razor, you know.
  - dvtv75 10y ago
    That's a good point, I didn't consider that. (Obviously!)

harveywi 10y ago

Did they investigate garbage collection as a possible explanation?

Insanity 10y ago
Did not expect this comment but it made me smile :D +1 to that!

ChuckMcM 10y ago

This bit surprised me: "Illegal salvaging of the wrecks for steel, aluminium and brass has become commonplace." I suppose it makes sense as these materials are easily reprocessed into a commodity that can be sold, but still the work involved relative to the available ships to be salvaged that are not underwater seems like it would make this financially infeasible to me. Then there is the whole "How the heck do you dismantle a ship underwater?" that is a discovery television show I'd probably record and watch. Edit: found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5k5j7EpFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5k5j7EpFQ which is an underwater cutting torch.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
I've helped float a 70ft steel wreck off of the Caribbean Sea floor using second hand airbags that cost no more than a few thousand dollars (EDIT: You'll want to spend a bit more if this isn't just for fun). Physics is awesome, and the only cost is your time and the materials. Also, if you were only interested in the most valuable materials on the vessel that are accessible without entering a confined space, you'd just need a scuba rig (very low barrier to entry). I would definitely not attempt extensive disassembly underwater. Far more dangerous than floating the vessel and breaking it on shore, dry dock, low tide. EDIT: I thought I'd add why its not safe underwater. Help yourself to some Delta P nightmare fuel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEtbFm_CjE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEtbFm_CjE0 (also confined spaces, unstable underwater structures, etc)
- schoen 10y ago
  Would you be willing to write up some more about your experiences with floating the wreck? I bet people here would find it very interesting!
  - dvtv75 10y ago
    Absolutely! It would be most interesting to hear some firsthand experiences.
    - 10y ago

joezydeco 10y ago

The pre-nuclear era steel would certainly be more valuable than post-war steel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

trhway 10y ago

it isn't just steel, there is also brass, etc. Anyway, having at least 2 metal hungry countries - India and China - right near by and knowing how in 199x some entrepreneurial souls salvaged and sold for scrap to India some relatively modern (back then) USSR navy ships left in Africa after collapse of the USSR i'm not at all surprised .. i mean it is just 70m depth. And we're talking about area where ships are regularly "lost" - at least when it comes to registration paperwork - and where a whole large passenger plane was lost recently. So no surprise that one more illegal salvage operation went unnoticed or looked unremarkable if by chance there happened somebody around to look at it at all.

BurningFrog 10y ago
Or was done by the government itself.
realityking 10y ago
Do you have a link about those USSR ships left in Africa? I'd love to learn more about them.
roywiggins 10y ago
My favorite missing craft is the 727 cargo plane that was flown out of Angola and never seen or heard from again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Boeing_727-223_disappearance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Boeing_727-223_disappeara...

verytrivial 10y ago

Satellite imagery? The salvage ships would be 10s of metres in length and would have loitered for days. Might give some clues (but I'm not sure what you could do with them...)

fred_is_fred 10y ago

Wouldn't a ship underwater for 70 years be covered in coral and/or rusted or somehow otherwise modified so that it's hard to salvage?

dba7dba 10y ago

That is messed up. What happened to the remains that were surely in the wreck? So wrong.