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Are you kidding me? How can you not see that this is nothing more than an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with? Imagine the function keys had neve

Are you kidding me? How can you not see that this is nothing more than an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with? Imagine the function keys had never existed to begin with. Don't you think we would have come up with a different way of stepping through code with a debugger? I understand that it's annoying to have to change your habits, but you're a developer for crying out loud: Your job is literally to change how other people do work, to make it more efficient, easier to learn and so on. We all know that our users often resent us, because we change how they have to do their work. But we do it anyway, because we believe deeply (and mostly rightly) that the benefits of progress outweighs the short term annoyances of having to change habits. But when we're the ones who have to change, hoo-boy, suddenly the sky is falling. Give me a break.

simooooo 10y ago
Imagine the function keys never existed.. okay! That made it all better.
jmkni 10y ago
Well...pretty much everything you do is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with. Sleeping in a bed is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with, why not sleep on the floor, or in the bath? The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code, and a part of this is to do with their physical presence on the keyboard. I know that I don't have to use them, there are other ways to achieve the same thing, but those things have always been there and I choose the function keys because they are the best option.
- tracker1 10y ago
  I must admit, I rarely use the function keys as they seem to be different everywhere... Mainly from years of VS usage, actually... But I use the escape key hundreds of times a day.. not having that as a dedicated key will hinder me as much as removing the backspace key.. I mean nobody needs to go back, and you can just use the mouse with cut..
- adamlett 10y ago
  Sleeping in a bed is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with, why not sleep on the floor, or in the bath? Because contrary to what you say, sleeping in a bed is not just an arbitrary habit. The bed is a special purpose piece of furniture, optimised for sleeping in. The use of f-key to step through a program is OTOH simply an accident of history. The f-keys were chosen because they were there. Had they not been, some other solution would have been invented, using the keys that were there, and (this is my point) the solution would have been just as good!
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Sleeping in a bed is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with, why not sleep on the floor, or in the bath? Because your back will hurt, so not that arbitrary after all. You will have no adverse effects of using an alternate method to step in the debugger. >The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code Citation needed. They are at best a random accident. Any other keys or key combos could be used.
- rayiner 10y ago
  > The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code, and a part of this is to do with their physical presence on the keyboard Emacs users are blinking skeptically.
pschastain 10y ago
> an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with You mean a workflow? Who are you (or anyone else) to decide what works best for me? Am I not capable of making my own decisions? Do I really need a hardware company making those choices for me?
- adamlett 10y ago
  Who are you (or anyone else) to decide what works best for me? Am I not capable of making my own decisions? Do I really need a hardware company making those choices for me? Did you not read beyond my first sentence? Who are we as programmers to decide what works best for our users? Were the clerks at the bank not capable of deciding for themselves if their pen and paper workflows worked better for them than the computer programs we made to replace them? The typographers of yore were almost certainly more comfortable and faster using a linotype machine than this new fangled desktop publishing software, that we invented. I simply cannot wrap my head around people in our profession who kick and scream because the march of progress once in a while makes their lifes a tiny bit uncomfortable for a short while.
  - pschastain 10y ago
    > Who are we as programmers to decide what works best for our users? Where did I say that? You seem confused. And your argument regarding publishing and banking software is a strawman intended to shift the focus away from the real argument - that of choice. Forcing a change on my workflow can have very real effects on my ability to generate income. Why should anyone be ok with that?
    - adamlett 10y ago
      > Who are we as programmers to decide what works best for our users? Where did I say that? You seem confused. I am saying that we as programmers force people to change their habits all the time. We do it to in the name of efficiency and progress. We eliminate workflows, we make entire jobs redundant. We of all people should be able to recognise that even though change is uncomfortable, it is inevitable, and mostly for the better. And your argument regarding publishing and banking software is a strawman intended to shift the focus away from the real argument - that of choice Please. Even if we pretend that you don't still have the option to use a third party keyboard, or buy one of the Macs that still have the f-keys, what about the people who would prefer the new touch bar to the f-keys? What about their choice? Forcing a change on my workflow can have very real effects on my ability to generate income I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You are not going to feel a very real effect on your ability to generate an income simply by being forced to learn a different set of shortcut keys to step through a debugger.
tw04 10y ago
It kind of is... this reminds me very much of moving from a blackberry to an iPhone. Sure, the features of the iPhone were great, but for my (at the time) primary purpose of using the device for sending emails, it as a MASSIVE step backwards. I could touch type nearly as fast on a blackberry as on a regular keyboard. Moving to a touchscreen meant I had to look at the screen while typing. It slowed me down tremendously, and IMO was a massive step backwards in usability.
- adamlett 10y ago
  It's an interesting comparison, but IMO not that apt. Going from a physical keyboard to a touch screen, something is definitely lost (even though much is also gained). The removal of the function keys will at worse force people to memorise different hot keys (any reason why the number row could not serve the same purpose exactly as well?), and at best it will make providers of IDEs and other productivity software revisit old assumptions, and improve the usability of their software.
  - tw04 10y ago
    They aren't just function keys. Losing the tactile feedback of volume and screen brightness, while not THE END OF THE WORLD will very quickly become an every day annoyance for me. In order to... have a contextual touchscreen that forces me to take my eyes of the monitor to use? Sorry, I'm just not seeing the draw. I'm also struggling to buy into the "not everyone is a touch typist" excuse. Anyone under the age of about 40 has had a typing class. Anyone under the age of about 25 (who is using a computer for their job/attending college) knew they were going to spend the rest of their life using a computer and probably paid attention.
    - adamlett 10y ago
      Sorry, I'm just not seeing the draw "Sorry, but I'm just not interested in this motorized wagon you've invented. It's noisy and ugly. Could you please just go and invent me a faster horse instead?"

simooooo 10y ago

Imagine the function keys never existed.. okay! That made it all better.

jmkni 10y ago

Well...pretty much everything you do is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with. Sleeping in a bed is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with, why not sleep on the floor, or in the bath? The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code, and a part of this is to do with their physical presence on the keyboard. I know that I don't have to use them, there are other ways to achieve the same thing, but those things have always been there and I choose the function keys because they are the best option.

tracker1 10y ago
I must admit, I rarely use the function keys as they seem to be different everywhere... Mainly from years of VS usage, actually... But I use the escape key hundreds of times a day.. not having that as a dedicated key will hinder me as much as removing the backspace key.. I mean nobody needs to go back, and you can just use the mouse with cut..
adamlett 10y ago
Sleeping in a bed is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with, why not sleep on the floor, or in the bath? Because contrary to what you say, sleeping in a bed is not just an arbitrary habit. The bed is a special purpose piece of furniture, optimised for sleeping in. The use of f-key to step through a program is OTOH simply an accident of history. The f-keys were chosen because they were there. Had they not been, some other solution would have been invented, using the keys that were there, and (this is my point) the solution would have been just as good!
coldtea 10y ago
>Sleeping in a bed is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with, why not sleep on the floor, or in the bath? Because your back will hurt, so not that arbitrary after all. You will have no adverse effects of using an alternate method to step in the debugger. >The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code Citation needed. They are at best a random accident. Any other keys or key combos could be used.
rayiner 10y ago
> The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code, and a part of this is to do with their physical presence on the keyboard Emacs users are blinking skeptically.

pschastain 10y ago

> an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with You mean a workflow? Who are you (or anyone else) to decide what works best for me? Am I not capable of making my own decisions? Do I really need a hardware company making those choices for me?

adamlett 10y ago
Who are you (or anyone else) to decide what works best for me? Am I not capable of making my own decisions? Do I really need a hardware company making those choices for me? Did you not read beyond my first sentence? Who are we as programmers to decide what works best for our users? Were the clerks at the bank not capable of deciding for themselves if their pen and paper workflows worked better for them than the computer programs we made to replace them? The typographers of yore were almost certainly more comfortable and faster using a linotype machine than this new fangled desktop publishing software, that we invented. I simply cannot wrap my head around people in our profession who kick and scream because the march of progress once in a while makes their lifes a tiny bit uncomfortable for a short while.
- pschastain 10y ago
  > Who are we as programmers to decide what works best for our users? Where did I say that? You seem confused. And your argument regarding publishing and banking software is a strawman intended to shift the focus away from the real argument - that of choice. Forcing a change on my workflow can have very real effects on my ability to generate income. Why should anyone be ok with that?
  - adamlett 10y ago
    > Who are we as programmers to decide what works best for our users? Where did I say that? You seem confused. I am saying that we as programmers force people to change their habits all the time. We do it to in the name of efficiency and progress. We eliminate workflows, we make entire jobs redundant. We of all people should be able to recognise that even though change is uncomfortable, it is inevitable, and mostly for the better. And your argument regarding publishing and banking software is a strawman intended to shift the focus away from the real argument - that of choice Please. Even if we pretend that you don't still have the option to use a third party keyboard, or buy one of the Macs that still have the f-keys, what about the people who would prefer the new touch bar to the f-keys? What about their choice? Forcing a change on my workflow can have very real effects on my ability to generate income I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You are not going to feel a very real effect on your ability to generate an income simply by being forced to learn a different set of shortcut keys to step through a debugger.

tw04 10y ago

It kind of is... this reminds me very much of moving from a blackberry to an iPhone. Sure, the features of the iPhone were great, but for my (at the time) primary purpose of using the device for sending emails, it as a MASSIVE step backwards. I could touch type nearly as fast on a blackberry as on a regular keyboard. Moving to a touchscreen meant I had to look at the screen while typing. It slowed me down tremendously, and IMO was a massive step backwards in usability.

adamlett 10y ago
It's an interesting comparison, but IMO not that apt. Going from a physical keyboard to a touch screen, something is definitely lost (even though much is also gained). The removal of the function keys will at worse force people to memorise different hot keys (any reason why the number row could not serve the same purpose exactly as well?), and at best it will make providers of IDEs and other productivity software revisit old assumptions, and improve the usability of their software.
- tw04 10y ago
  They aren't just function keys. Losing the tactile feedback of volume and screen brightness, while not THE END OF THE WORLD will very quickly become an every day annoyance for me. In order to... have a contextual touchscreen that forces me to take my eyes of the monitor to use? Sorry, I'm just not seeing the draw. I'm also struggling to buy into the "not everyone is a touch typist" excuse. Anyone under the age of about 40 has had a typing class. Anyone under the age of about 25 (who is using a computer for their job/attending college) knew they were going to spend the rest of their life using a computer and probably paid attention.
  - adamlett 10y ago
    Sorry, I'm just not seeing the draw "Sorry, but I'm just not interested in this motorized wagon you've invented. It's noisy and ugly. Could you please just go and invent me a faster horse instead?"