8 ms·

Apple is not saying anything like this, just a bunch of whiners twisting things. Just like they did after any Mac upgrade.

HNSucksAss 10y ago
WRONG. The removal of a dozen keys from an already gimped keyboard is decidedly anti-developer. Oh, but if you opt for the one remaining Apple laptop with an almost-full keyboard, guess what? Apple will PUNISH you by deleting one of the USB/Thunderbolt ports. Yeah: Power users and developers, the ones most likely to use I/O ports and function keys, get pettily PUNISHED when they opt for one or the other. And you can shove your "whining" canard and your judgmental "upgrade" term, because anyone who takes computers seriously will easily break down that strawman. This "touch strip" is an embarrassing gimmick that doesn't hold up to common sense, much less developers' needs. As a user, we're suddenly supposed to embrace this non-palpable display strip on the keyboard, compulsively glancing down at it every few seconds to see if some goodies have popped up based on the caprices of the app we're using or the window we happened to click on? And as developers, we're supposed to write extra code to support this bullshit that only exists on SOME keyboards and ONE platform that has 5% market share? And all this on glued-together computers with soldered-in RAM, proprietary drive interfaces, stupid glossy screens with no matte option... yeah, this "whining" is well-founded in FACT and self respect. Try getting some of both.
erelde 10y ago
I don't know if it's just the usual whining of people complaining about new things. From the exterior (I'm too young and the only Mac I've ever used was the Macintosh Plus -bragging, with 4Mo of RAM- while I was a child), it really seems like Apple has dropped the ball for professionals, both developers and graphics people. There are now equally well designed PCs (laptops and desktops) from other manufacturers, Windows has a lot of support, if you want to use Linux, the kernel now supports a wide range of hardware. In the meantime, Apple doesn't have a good desktop offering, and their laptops seem gimmicky to me while not offering a performance edge over their competitors. A few months ago I thought about buying a (my first) Macbook and waited for their announcement, now I'm looking the other way. And around me, I'm the guy people go to ask when they have a computer related purchase to make.
- Twisell 10y ago
  I don't now where you lived the past 20 years but theses are maybe the most classical arguments against mac in business. Mac have never been "for Pro" if you go that way. So I guess it confirm that it's not the company that shifted it's focus, but maybe there is more potentials customers expectation of Apple going more "pro".
  - erelde 10y ago
    They may be classics, but are they wrong? Yes, Apple has never targeted businesses, but they did target individuals professionnals at some point. Video and sound editors used to work on Macs, and now move to windows. It's a classic, but is it wrong?
    - Twisell 10y ago
      I guess as always it will mostly depend on your use case. However this recent announcement from IBM might emphasis the need to reconsider theses year old arguments to take accounts of new facts : https://www.jamf.com/blog/debate-over-ibm-confirms-that-macs-are-535-less-expensive-than-pcs/ https://www.jamf.com/blog/debate-over-ibm-confirms-that-macs...
      - erelde 10y ago
        I knew about that (and Google's Macs). But for standards businesses with relatively technologically inept people, when you need an Active Directory, you just need it.
- nicky0 10y ago
  > equally well designed PCs That bit is debatable.
  - amiga-workbench 10y ago
    I agree, PC manufacturers havent quite caught on that less is more (at least aesthetically) I see machines like the HP Spectre and feel they are still somewhat overdesigned.
coldtea 10y ago
>WRONG. The removal of a dozen keys from an already gimped keyboard is decidedly anti-developer. I am a developer and I could not care less about function keys. Why the duck would developers need function keys? Even for Vim, the age-old advice is to remap Esc so that you keep your hands on the home row. A flexible multi-touch strip of context-aware keys can do much more things -- e.g. map debugger step moves when I'm running an IDE, or trigger builds, show the SCM status of the current opened file, etc.
- chj 10y ago
  I care. I don't remember that advice, and I never have trouble relocating my fingers in sub seconds.
  - jeffhuys 10y ago
    So you'd rather press F5 to build and F6 to debug instead of tapping "Build" or "Debug"?
    - Nullabillity 10y ago
      Absolutely. You shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway, and that becomes a lot harder if you don't have tactile feedback.
- Steeeve 10y ago
  More than a few developers have spoken up on the issue here on HN. The escape key is commonly used, as are many other function keys. Other vendors have rolled out similar gadgets to apple and they've been rejected by the development community at large - which apple would have known because they don't implement things like that willy nilly.
  - Kipters 10y ago
    Since we're talking about what is basically a rebrand of Xamarin Studio, the current release of Xamarin Studio for Mac uses the function keys for stepping in the debugger
oceanswave 10y ago
Microsoft announces VS for mac, HN thread turns into I hate macs rant. Sigh.

HNSucksAss 10y ago

WRONG. The removal of a dozen keys from an already gimped keyboard is decidedly anti-developer. Oh, but if you opt for the one remaining Apple laptop with an almost-full keyboard, guess what? Apple will PUNISH you by deleting one of the USB/Thunderbolt ports. Yeah: Power users and developers, the ones most likely to use I/O ports and function keys, get pettily PUNISHED when they opt for one or the other. And you can shove your "whining" canard and your judgmental "upgrade" term, because anyone who takes computers seriously will easily break down that strawman. This "touch strip" is an embarrassing gimmick that doesn't hold up to common sense, much less developers' needs. As a user, we're suddenly supposed to embrace this non-palpable display strip on the keyboard, compulsively glancing down at it every few seconds to see if some goodies have popped up based on the caprices of the app we're using or the window we happened to click on? And as developers, we're supposed to write extra code to support this bullshit that only exists on SOME keyboards and ONE platform that has 5% market share? And all this on glued-together computers with soldered-in RAM, proprietary drive interfaces, stupid glossy screens with no matte option... yeah, this "whining" is well-founded in FACT and self respect. Try getting some of both.

erelde 10y ago

I don't know if it's just the usual whining of people complaining about new things. From the exterior (I'm too young and the only Mac I've ever used was the Macintosh Plus -bragging, with 4Mo of RAM- while I was a child), it really seems like Apple has dropped the ball for professionals, both developers and graphics people. There are now equally well designed PCs (laptops and desktops) from other manufacturers, Windows has a lot of support, if you want to use Linux, the kernel now supports a wide range of hardware. In the meantime, Apple doesn't have a good desktop offering, and their laptops seem gimmicky to me while not offering a performance edge over their competitors. A few months ago I thought about buying a (my first) Macbook and waited for their announcement, now I'm looking the other way. And around me, I'm the guy people go to ask when they have a computer related purchase to make.

Twisell 10y ago
I don't now where you lived the past 20 years but theses are maybe the most classical arguments against mac in business. Mac have never been "for Pro" if you go that way. So I guess it confirm that it's not the company that shifted it's focus, but maybe there is more potentials customers expectation of Apple going more "pro".
- erelde 10y ago
  They may be classics, but are they wrong? Yes, Apple has never targeted businesses, but they did target individuals professionnals at some point. Video and sound editors used to work on Macs, and now move to windows. It's a classic, but is it wrong?
  - Twisell 10y ago
    I guess as always it will mostly depend on your use case. However this recent announcement from IBM might emphasis the need to reconsider theses year old arguments to take accounts of new facts : https://www.jamf.com/blog/debate-over-ibm-confirms-that-macs-are-535-less-expensive-than-pcs/ https://www.jamf.com/blog/debate-over-ibm-confirms-that-macs...
    - erelde 10y ago
      I knew about that (and Google's Macs). But for standards businesses with relatively technologically inept people, when you need an Active Directory, you just need it.
nicky0 10y ago
> equally well designed PCs That bit is debatable.
- amiga-workbench 10y ago
  I agree, PC manufacturers havent quite caught on that less is more (at least aesthetically) I see machines like the HP Spectre and feel they are still somewhat overdesigned.

coldtea 10y ago

>WRONG. The removal of a dozen keys from an already gimped keyboard is decidedly anti-developer. I am a developer and I could not care less about function keys. Why the duck would developers need function keys? Even for Vim, the age-old advice is to remap Esc so that you keep your hands on the home row. A flexible multi-touch strip of context-aware keys can do much more things -- e.g. map debugger step moves when I'm running an IDE, or trigger builds, show the SCM status of the current opened file, etc.

chj 10y ago
I care. I don't remember that advice, and I never have trouble relocating my fingers in sub seconds.
- jeffhuys 10y ago
  So you'd rather press F5 to build and F6 to debug instead of tapping "Build" or "Debug"?
  - Nullabillity 10y ago
    Absolutely. You shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway, and that becomes a lot harder if you don't have tactile feedback.
Steeeve 10y ago
More than a few developers have spoken up on the issue here on HN. The escape key is commonly used, as are many other function keys. Other vendors have rolled out similar gadgets to apple and they've been rejected by the development community at large - which apple would have known because they don't implement things like that willy nilly.
- Kipters 10y ago
  Since we're talking about what is basically a rebrand of Xamarin Studio, the current release of Xamarin Studio for Mac uses the function keys for stepping in the debugger

oceanswave 10y ago

Microsoft announces VS for mac, HN thread turns into I hate macs rant. Sigh.