7 ms·

I don't see how you can have a humane prison not be a criminal university. I mean, in the old days, they would just throw you in cell and leave you there for ye

by ythn 10y ago

I don't see how you can have a humane prison not be a criminal university. I mean, in the old days, they would just throw you in cell and leave you there for years. Your meals would come in through a slot in the door and you would poop and pee in a pot. No face-to-face interaction with other prisoners. No shared cells. No recreational time in open areas where you can form cliques. The only communication that happened between prisoners was via tapping or other coded acoustics. Allowing prisoners to interact face to face in open and closed environments is going to introduce these extra complexities of prisoners "poisoning" other prisoners.

mmanfrin 10y ago
It's not that socializing is the problem, it's that there is no enforcement -- your safety inside is guaranteed by nothing; so participation in a gang is inevitable as an outgrowth of the lack of safety.
cma 10y ago
Can you provide a source that in the "old days" all prison was solitary confinement?
- yaur 10y ago
  Eastern State Penitentiary is considered the first "true penitentiary" Wikipedia[1] has pretty good coverage of its history, including starting with an all solitary system. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_State_Penitentiary
  - jmiserez 10y ago
    * in the US. We've certainly had prisons before 1829 elsewhere in the world.
    - paulddraper 10y ago
      Sure, there were prisons in ancient times too. I think the 1829 example may be more relevant.
andrepd 10y ago
That's wrong. It's false that prison was like you describe in "the old days". In fact, any statement about historical fact that begins with "in the old days", generalising wildly different realities across time and space into one short anecdotal tidbit is most certainly going to be wrong.
lambda 10y ago
"I don't see how you can have a humane prison not be a criminal university." By having it promote positive improvement and rehabilitation rather than purely punishment. Here is what a humane prison looks like: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35813470 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35813470 http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Prison
- moyta 10y ago
  "A society will be judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members" ~Pope John Paul II By treating prisoners humanely, a society is showing how it treats those who are at the bottom rungs of it. It is a reflection on the society itself.
  - jedrek 10y ago
    A lot of people call those prisons "dorms" and they say that prisoners live in better conditions than a lot of people outside of prison. And yet, they don't make the jump to the idea that maybe people shouldn't be living in worse conditions.
    - moyta 10y ago
      Definitely, I am a big believer in Housing First and affordable housing by allowing high density development, as it is a viable path forward for cities and it defends suburbs from pressure to redevelop much more destructive low density redevelopment.
      - iaskwhy 10y ago
        I'm getting off-topic here but can you share some resources on how low density developments are much more destructive? I'm usually very pro low density housing (and also very anti high density housing) so I'd like to have some new perspectives on this. Thanks.
wav-part 10y ago
In short, punishment should be banished away. Not banished to a certain location. We as society wants that certain people do not live among us. But that does not imply they have to live in worst condition. So the solution, instead of prision have contained societies. Both private and public run. So then going to prision would mean relocating to one of the contained societies [1], completely upto the the "offender". In these societies they will have their own system of governence. [1] They would also would be allowed to move to another country.
- BjoernKW 10y ago
  > They would also would be allowed to move to another country If those countries are having them, that is. In medieval times banishment for the most part was equivalent to death (or turning to a life of crime as a bandit). While a nice idea in theory, how would a contained society actually work? Prisons already are miniature societies (just generally not very humanely run ones). It'd still be a prison, albeit a larger one, wouldn't it? Worst case it'd be something like Manhattan in Escape from New York. I'm not saying it couldn't work but it's not an easy thing to get right.
  - wav-part 10y ago
    > how would a contained society actually work? If a society is understanding enough to have CS, it safe to expect they would also not use CS for non-violent crimes. So now what would CS for violent criminals with no skill look like ? Ok so this would be a prision/rehabilitation-center in traditional sense but with a twist that they can also leave provided the country have them.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
Take a look at humane prisons that work in other countries. If treating people humanely meant that folks learned more criminal ways, Norway would have an awful time with this. The opposite is true, however. For the most part, folks are committed to trying to make the prisoners a good neighbor upon being releases - from day 1 of being released. What you describe - some of the prisons of the "old days" also produced ex-offenders that were seriously mentally ill. That is very easily the effect of having solitary of that sort for so many years. Even if you do wind up being able to mentally withstand the place, you get released with no knowledge of what has happened - which happens now, actually.

by ythn 10y ago

mmanfrin 10y ago

It's not that socializing is the problem, it's that there is no enforcement -- your safety inside is guaranteed by nothing; so participation in a gang is inevitable as an outgrowth of the lack of safety.

cma 10y ago

Can you provide a source that in the "old days" all prison was solitary confinement?

yaur 10y ago
Eastern State Penitentiary is considered the first "true penitentiary" Wikipedia[1] has pretty good coverage of its history, including starting with an all solitary system. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_State_Penitentiary
- jmiserez 10y ago
  * in the US. We've certainly had prisons before 1829 elsewhere in the world.
  - paulddraper 10y ago
    Sure, there were prisons in ancient times too. I think the 1829 example may be more relevant.

andrepd 10y ago

That's wrong. It's false that prison was like you describe in "the old days". In fact, any statement about historical fact that begins with "in the old days", generalising wildly different realities across time and space into one short anecdotal tidbit is most certainly going to be wrong.

lambda 10y ago

"I don't see how you can have a humane prison not be a criminal university." By having it promote positive improvement and rehabilitation rather than purely punishment. Here is what a humane prison looks like: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35813470 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35813470 http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Prison

moyta 10y ago
"A society will be judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members" ~Pope John Paul II By treating prisoners humanely, a society is showing how it treats those who are at the bottom rungs of it. It is a reflection on the society itself.
- jedrek 10y ago
  A lot of people call those prisons "dorms" and they say that prisoners live in better conditions than a lot of people outside of prison. And yet, they don't make the jump to the idea that maybe people shouldn't be living in worse conditions.
  - moyta 10y ago
    Definitely, I am a big believer in Housing First and affordable housing by allowing high density development, as it is a viable path forward for cities and it defends suburbs from pressure to redevelop much more destructive low density redevelopment.
    - iaskwhy 10y ago
      I'm getting off-topic here but can you share some resources on how low density developments are much more destructive? I'm usually very pro low density housing (and also very anti high density housing) so I'd like to have some new perspectives on this. Thanks.

wav-part 10y ago

In short, punishment should be banished away. Not banished to a certain location. We as society wants that certain people do not live among us. But that does not imply they have to live in worst condition. So the solution, instead of prision have contained societies. Both private and public run. So then going to prision would mean relocating to one of the contained societies [1], completely upto the the "offender". In these societies they will have their own system of governence. [1] They would also would be allowed to move to another country.

BjoernKW 10y ago
> They would also would be allowed to move to another country If those countries are having them, that is. In medieval times banishment for the most part was equivalent to death (or turning to a life of crime as a bandit). While a nice idea in theory, how would a contained society actually work? Prisons already are miniature societies (just generally not very humanely run ones). It'd still be a prison, albeit a larger one, wouldn't it? Worst case it'd be something like Manhattan in Escape from New York. I'm not saying it couldn't work but it's not an easy thing to get right.
- wav-part 10y ago
  > how would a contained society actually work? If a society is understanding enough to have CS, it safe to expect they would also not use CS for non-violent crimes. So now what would CS for violent criminals with no skill look like ? Ok so this would be a prision/rehabilitation-center in traditional sense but with a twist that they can also leave provided the country have them.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

Take a look at humane prisons that work in other countries. If treating people humanely meant that folks learned more criminal ways, Norway would have an awful time with this. The opposite is true, however. For the most part, folks are committed to trying to make the prisoners a good neighbor upon being releases - from day 1 of being released. What you describe - some of the prisons of the "old days" also produced ex-offenders that were seriously mentally ill. That is very easily the effect of having solitary of that sort for so many years. Even if you do wind up being able to mentally withstand the place, you get released with no knowledge of what has happened - which happens now, actually.