5 ms·

I'm in that database because my photo was taken for a driver's license. Imagine the system is not 100% reliable (which of course it isn't), I wind up being matc

I'm in that database because my photo was taken for a driver's license. Imagine the system is not 100% reliable (which of course it isn't), I wind up being matched as a probable, and become a target for investigation, and potentially arrested. At this point I am only guilty of driving a car and will have to defend myself by hiring a lawyer. Eventually it will be obvious I couldn't be the person. By then my life is mostly in ruin. Yet there is nothing I can do to avoid this possibility legally.

anonymfus 10y ago
Same thing happens when police publishes photo of suspect and then your neighbour reports you.
CalChris 10y ago
Yes. This is similar to asset seizure where the entire burden of proving your innocence is placed on you.
gm-conspiracy 10y ago
"Yet there is nothing I can do to avoid this possibility legally." Don't drive? I know that sucks, but with self-driving cars on the horizon, these sort of "capitulation of rights" scenarios should not need to exist. We are very vulnerable (in terms of rights) when driving in the US.
- r0muald 10y ago
  > We are very vulnerable (in terms of rights) when driving in the US. We are very vulnerable (in terms of rights) in the US.
- CapitalistCartr 10y ago
  In the USA that doesn't help. If you don't have a driver's license, you have to have a "state-issued ID card", which is the same except it doesn't confer the right to drive. The only way to avoid both is to opt out of society completely, which is effectively giving up living in this country.
  - uiri 10y ago
    > If you don't have a driver's license, you have to have a "state-issued ID card", which is the same except it doesn't confer the right to drive. Why? There are alternatives for ID and proof-of-age, such as a passport booklet/card.
    - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
      They're expensive, most Americans don't have them, especially the poorer, and they're a greater hassle: people expect a driver's license. And once you've had one, they have your photo; too late to change. Also, not having a driver's license is looked down on in most of the USA, outside a few major cities. It constrains job/dating/social/living location opportunities.
    - fourthark 10y ago
      Obviously, a passport does not avoid the facial recognition problem we're talking about here.
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      No. Most laws only require people requesting proof of identity accept an in-state drivers license or military ID.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- c22 10y ago
  In Washington I was able to request to not have a photo on my license which I started doing when they started using a facial database. The license says "NOT VALID FOR IDENTIFICATION" in large red letters, so I can't use it to buy beer. But I can use it to drive a car which is all I really need it for.
  - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
    Just learned that California, Missouri, Louisiana, Mississippi, Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont are the lone states that do not use facial recognition tech on DMV photos. I imagine though that eventually the FBI, State Dept, states, etc. will all be combined
    - hga 10y ago
      Or, you know, maybe our founders knew a good idea when they adopted this federalism thing. As someone born, raised in and retired to the great state of Missouri, which is also the sole state that doesn't play big brother with narcotic prescriptions, I rather like the idea of imagining that we won't combine our law enforcement agencies in such a vertical manner.
      - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
        As a California resident, I was relieved to read that we were exempt. But how can this continue with the eventual implementation of the RealID law?
elcct 10y ago
Looks like fake moustaches will be a thing soon
- amelius 10y ago
  Camouflage from face detection: https://cvdazzle.com/ https://cvdazzle.com/
  - zappo2938 10y ago
    Here it is done correctly[0] [0] http://www.eonline.com/resize/300/300/akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2016115/rs_300x300-160215165333-300-sia-james-corden-carpool-karaoke-late-late-show-021516.jpg http://www.eonline.com/resize/300/300/akns-images.eonline.co...
Mathnerd314 10y ago
My guess would be that you'll be interviewed rather than being arrested, because of a low 'threat score': http://www.infowars.com/police-using-social-media-posts-to-determine-threat-score-of-suspects/ http://www.infowars.com/police-using-social-media-posts-to-d... The problem of course is that those scores aren't very good either, because they don't distinguish between e.g. libertarian peaceniks, right-wing anarchists, and biker gang bangers. But the solution is just more data; cross-referencing with a consumer purchase database, for example. Eventually the police will get their responses well-calibrated. I'd assume this sort of thing is what Trump is referring to when he says he supports profiling.
- ch4s3 10y ago
  Honestly, why would you want police to have access to "a consumer purchase database"?
  - Mathnerd314 10y ago
    Because at some level, policing is about delivering a product (a policeman) to a consumer (a victim / criminal in a bad situation), so standard marketing tactics (market segmentation, revenue management, etc.) apply. Many other businesses have access to these databases and use them to beneficial effect; there's no reason police shouldn't jump onto the big data bandwagon too to increase customer satisfaction. See e.g. http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/10/uk-police-departments-do-customer-satisfaction-surveys/411445/ http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/10/uk-police-departments-d... http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/02/more-police-managed-more-effectively-really-can-reduce-crime/385390/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/02/more-pol...
- fourthark 10y ago
  True but still creepy.
vivekd 10y ago
I would imagine that this database is going to be used to supplement police work rather than substitute it. I don't think police or prosecutors will try to press charges based on the database searches alone because it is very unlikely that something like that would hold up in court. They will also have to show other evidence that the person in question did in fact commit the crime. For example, in this case, it seems like the software justified the drug sting, but I imagine the drugs and paraphernalia found at the scene was what justified the actual arrest and prosecution.

anonymfus 10y ago

Same thing happens when police publishes photo of suspect and then your neighbour reports you.

CalChris 10y ago

Yes. This is similar to asset seizure where the entire burden of proving your innocence is placed on you.

gm-conspiracy 10y ago

"Yet there is nothing I can do to avoid this possibility legally." Don't drive? I know that sucks, but with self-driving cars on the horizon, these sort of "capitulation of rights" scenarios should not need to exist. We are very vulnerable (in terms of rights) when driving in the US.

r0muald 10y ago
> We are very vulnerable (in terms of rights) when driving in the US. We are very vulnerable (in terms of rights) in the US.
CapitalistCartr 10y ago
In the USA that doesn't help. If you don't have a driver's license, you have to have a "state-issued ID card", which is the same except it doesn't confer the right to drive. The only way to avoid both is to opt out of society completely, which is effectively giving up living in this country.
- uiri 10y ago
  > If you don't have a driver's license, you have to have a "state-issued ID card", which is the same except it doesn't confer the right to drive. Why? There are alternatives for ID and proof-of-age, such as a passport booklet/card.
  - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
    They're expensive, most Americans don't have them, especially the poorer, and they're a greater hassle: people expect a driver's license. And once you've had one, they have your photo; too late to change. Also, not having a driver's license is looked down on in most of the USA, outside a few major cities. It constrains job/dating/social/living location opportunities.
  - fourthark 10y ago
    Obviously, a passport does not avoid the facial recognition problem we're talking about here.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    No. Most laws only require people requesting proof of identity accept an in-state drivers license or military ID.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
c22 10y ago
In Washington I was able to request to not have a photo on my license which I started doing when they started using a facial database. The license says "NOT VALID FOR IDENTIFICATION" in large red letters, so I can't use it to buy beer. But I can use it to drive a car which is all I really need it for.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  Just learned that California, Missouri, Louisiana, Mississippi, Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont are the lone states that do not use facial recognition tech on DMV photos. I imagine though that eventually the FBI, State Dept, states, etc. will all be combined
  - hga 10y ago
    Or, you know, maybe our founders knew a good idea when they adopted this federalism thing. As someone born, raised in and retired to the great state of Missouri, which is also the sole state that doesn't play big brother with narcotic prescriptions, I rather like the idea of imagining that we won't combine our law enforcement agencies in such a vertical manner.
    - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
      As a California resident, I was relieved to read that we were exempt. But how can this continue with the eventual implementation of the RealID law?

elcct 10y ago

Looks like fake moustaches will be a thing soon

amelius 10y ago
Camouflage from face detection: https://cvdazzle.com/ https://cvdazzle.com/
- zappo2938 10y ago
  Here it is done correctly[0] [0] http://www.eonline.com/resize/300/300/akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2016115/rs_300x300-160215165333-300-sia-james-corden-carpool-karaoke-late-late-show-021516.jpg http://www.eonline.com/resize/300/300/akns-images.eonline.co...

Mathnerd314 10y ago

My guess would be that you'll be interviewed rather than being arrested, because of a low 'threat score': http://www.infowars.com/police-using-social-media-posts-to-determine-threat-score-of-suspects/ http://www.infowars.com/police-using-social-media-posts-to-d... The problem of course is that those scores aren't very good either, because they don't distinguish between e.g. libertarian peaceniks, right-wing anarchists, and biker gang bangers. But the solution is just more data; cross-referencing with a consumer purchase database, for example. Eventually the police will get their responses well-calibrated. I'd assume this sort of thing is what Trump is referring to when he says he supports profiling.

ch4s3 10y ago
Honestly, why would you want police to have access to "a consumer purchase database"?
- Mathnerd314 10y ago
  Because at some level, policing is about delivering a product (a policeman) to a consumer (a victim / criminal in a bad situation), so standard marketing tactics (market segmentation, revenue management, etc.) apply. Many other businesses have access to these databases and use them to beneficial effect; there's no reason police shouldn't jump onto the big data bandwagon too to increase customer satisfaction. See e.g. http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/10/uk-police-departments-do-customer-satisfaction-surveys/411445/ http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/10/uk-police-departments-d... http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/02/more-police-managed-more-effectively-really-can-reduce-crime/385390/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/02/more-pol...
fourthark 10y ago
True but still creepy.

vivekd 10y ago

I would imagine that this database is going to be used to supplement police work rather than substitute it. I don't think police or prosecutors will try to press charges based on the database searches alone because it is very unlikely that something like that would hold up in court. They will also have to show other evidence that the person in question did in fact commit the crime. For example, in this case, it seems like the software justified the drug sting, but I imagine the drugs and paraphernalia found at the scene was what justified the actual arrest and prosecution.