5 ms·

The free people of the world need to be working on helping China get out from under censorship instead of letting our corporations abet this crime.

mwfunk 10y ago
Sadly, a large chunk of the free people of the world just decided that they want a world that's more like China in many respects, and they want leaders who are really committed to not telling corporations what they can't do as a matter of principle. :( And of course these two goals are totally contradictory, but based on their campaign promises it will be the worst of both worlds. Happy Friday everyone!
balabaster 10y ago
You don't think censorship, propaganda and flooding out the truth with lies happens in the West? Give your head a shake. Shit like this happens every time you turn on CNN, Fox News, BBC News, Al Jazeera and any number of other "news" outlets. You assume you're free and uncensored, but really you're just the product of the propaganda and media bias you buy into and are part of the echo chamber of that bias. Sure, China is likely doing some despicable things. Abhorrent things. Don't kid yourself that exactly the same shit isn't happening every day in the West. We're all subject to it, we're all victims of it and we all propagate it. Stop yourself and ask yourself this: How much of the shit I believe is actually true? How much of it can I prove from first principles and how much of it is just built on things I've learned through the media or the biases of other people I trust? How much of what they believe is true? What can you really trust? Who is really free?
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  It is not black or white! China is dark grey and the west is a lighter gray. It is a fallacy to think in binary, right wrong, good evil, there is nothing like that. I can guarantee you that both China and the USA have corruption, but the police and military aren't running brothels in the USA like they are in china. Yes, west and china has propaganda, but one more resembles North Korean ridiculousness than the other. The west and china both have pollution, but one is much worse than the other.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  This comment was so spot-on I had to upvote the parent post to make your reply more visible. I recently got in a discussion with a friend that wants to start a minimalist news outlet in order to focus on the truth and only the truth, but we still can't decide what exactly that means. Where do we get our information from? Can we trust that source? How much of a bias is automatically assumed by being Western and reading Western news? What's the "correct" proportion of "liberal" and "conservative" news sources? How can we divorce the information we choose to publish from our biases and opinions? We still don't know.
  - balabaster 10y ago
    The only way you can do that is to employ real investigative journalists yourself, chase down the cold hard facts - CSI style and then build the case for every story from first principles with absolutely no bias. The question is, can you find journalists that can stand outside those facts and paint a compelling picture of what they are without bias? Would you be able to raise enough of an income to pay those journalists what they would be worth? Could you get your news out there without it being crowded out by the propaganda machine at large? It's a worthy idea, truly. Is it realistic? When you're up against the entire media establishment? You're going to be a very lonely salmon swimming up the world's largest waterfall - that's if you even manage to keep yourself out of the kind of trouble that you will bring upon yourself and keep yourself out of jail or perhaps even worse. Perhaps you'd end up having to defect to another country or live in a foreign embassy to retain some semblance of freedom. I realize that's an extremely fatalist and cynical stance to take, but that's basically what you're up against. I have zero understanding what would need to be undertaken in order to get there, I have no understanding of marketing or funding. I don't have the first clue how you would begin to take such a stand. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken.
  - mtberatwork 10y ago
    First, learn the difference between editorializing news and reporting. Then get out into the field and report, follow a code of conduct [1]. Start local. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standard...
- badsock 10y ago
  You're making a false equivalency between China and the West - it's a vast exaggeration to say it's "exactly the same shit" that's happening. There is absolutely propaganda in the West, and there is censorship, but by any objective measure there is much, much more of it in China.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    If it exists in both places at an institutional level is not false equivalency. The west has no shortage of propaganda. media complicity, censorship, and legislation drafted up in the name of "national security." You yourself admitted as much. Please tell us by which objective measure are you referring to? You mention "by any objective measure.", please enumerate what those "any" are.
    - badsock 10y ago
      Off the top of my head, the ability to run a web server without first getting approval from the government is a pretty obvious differenciator.
      - bogomipz 10y ago
        So just that one criteria? Thats it? I believe you are referring to an ICP license which would is more regulatory/bureaucracy than anything else. You are also wrong, you can still put a web server without an ICP license. You won't go to jail for not having one nor does not having an ICP license mean you will automatically be censored . However if you want to have a large online presence then yes you will need to get an ICP license because hosting provider won't allow you to order rack or cages without one. You should read this. https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/chinese-icp-licensing-what-why-and-how-to-get-hosted-in-china--cms-23193 https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/chinese-icp-licensin... source: I worked for a CDN that put servers in China.
        badsock 10y ago
        From your link: "All sites hosted on a server in the Chinese mainland must, by law, apply for and receive one of these babies [an ICP License] before their site goes live, a rule enforced at the hosting level." The West doesn't require websites to display their licence number in their footers. They don't require printing presses to be registered with the government. True there's widespread surveillance, but there's no official and intrusive "great firewall": encrypted connections aren't throttled, there isn't widespread use of proxies just to simply _access_ popular sites in other countries. You can use whatever VPN you like in the West. Western movies are routinely banned in China, whereas I can't find a single example of a Chinese movie being banned in the Western world. Are you seriously making the claim that censorship in the West is literally at the same level as it in China? Because that's all I've said isn't true. I'm not saying that the West doesn't censor or propagandize, I'm saying that it (at least so far) hasn't engaged in to the same degree. I'm as angry at the media and the government surveillance in the West as anyone, but hyperbole does nothing to further the debate.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  Agreed. I was struck by this sentence: "and systematic identity verification of Internet users – measures that would make it virtually impossible to use the internet anonymously in China." Does anyone think for a minute that that doesn't exist in the West? You can't ignore this this sentence either: "The new law, arguably similar to what the Patriot Act was for the U.S. with legal clauses detailing national security, espionage and treason, reinforces the regime’s ability mount stronger charges in court."
- mtberatwork 10y ago
  Comparing Western journalism to Chinese censorship and its state run propaganda machine is disingenuous to say the least. I would suggest a thorough reading and contemplation of our freedoms [1] here before pulling out the propaganda/bias trope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press
  - balabaster 10y ago
    It's humorous in the least that you would pull out Wikipedia as a source for such a comment about censorship given the well known and documented behaviour of their moderators. I don't think it's disingenuous in the slightest. I'm not arguing that the Chinese state run propaganda machine isn't bad... but have you got any first hand experience of it? Do you have any clue about it that you haven't learned from other sources? Can you trust those sources? I'm pretty well read and I don't know anything as fact any further than I did before I started reading. All I know is what other people present as evidence. I had no hand in collecting the evidence, I have no proof the evidence hasn't been tampered with or is even true. Do you? Unless you have first hand experience, what do you actually know for sure? This is my point.
    - smilekzs 10y ago
      At least you can access Wikipedia today, and you know with confidence that you can access it tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, next month, etc. This is a luxury in China. It has never been about specific outlets. It has always been about whether there are artificial obstacles between my computer and the rest of the free internet. Before you could even decide whether or not to believe what you see, in China you are simply blindfolded in a non-deterministic (to you) fashion.
- qb45 10y ago
  Well, fwiw, here's a sample of Chinese propaganda I once encountered on HN (a few people said it's real): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10965313 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10965313 I think (hope?) we haven't quite reached this level here.

mwfunk 10y ago

Sadly, a large chunk of the free people of the world just decided that they want a world that's more like China in many respects, and they want leaders who are really committed to not telling corporations what they can't do as a matter of principle. :( And of course these two goals are totally contradictory, but based on their campaign promises it will be the worst of both worlds. Happy Friday everyone!

balabaster 10y ago

You don't think censorship, propaganda and flooding out the truth with lies happens in the West? Give your head a shake. Shit like this happens every time you turn on CNN, Fox News, BBC News, Al Jazeera and any number of other "news" outlets. You assume you're free and uncensored, but really you're just the product of the propaganda and media bias you buy into and are part of the echo chamber of that bias. Sure, China is likely doing some despicable things. Abhorrent things. Don't kid yourself that exactly the same shit isn't happening every day in the West. We're all subject to it, we're all victims of it and we all propagate it. Stop yourself and ask yourself this: How much of the shit I believe is actually true? How much of it can I prove from first principles and how much of it is just built on things I've learned through the media or the biases of other people I trust? How much of what they believe is true? What can you really trust? Who is really free?

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
It is not black or white! China is dark grey and the west is a lighter gray. It is a fallacy to think in binary, right wrong, good evil, there is nothing like that. I can guarantee you that both China and the USA have corruption, but the police and military aren't running brothels in the USA like they are in china. Yes, west and china has propaganda, but one more resembles North Korean ridiculousness than the other. The west and china both have pollution, but one is much worse than the other.
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
This comment was so spot-on I had to upvote the parent post to make your reply more visible. I recently got in a discussion with a friend that wants to start a minimalist news outlet in order to focus on the truth and only the truth, but we still can't decide what exactly that means. Where do we get our information from? Can we trust that source? How much of a bias is automatically assumed by being Western and reading Western news? What's the "correct" proportion of "liberal" and "conservative" news sources? How can we divorce the information we choose to publish from our biases and opinions? We still don't know.
- balabaster 10y ago
  The only way you can do that is to employ real investigative journalists yourself, chase down the cold hard facts - CSI style and then build the case for every story from first principles with absolutely no bias. The question is, can you find journalists that can stand outside those facts and paint a compelling picture of what they are without bias? Would you be able to raise enough of an income to pay those journalists what they would be worth? Could you get your news out there without it being crowded out by the propaganda machine at large? It's a worthy idea, truly. Is it realistic? When you're up against the entire media establishment? You're going to be a very lonely salmon swimming up the world's largest waterfall - that's if you even manage to keep yourself out of the kind of trouble that you will bring upon yourself and keep yourself out of jail or perhaps even worse. Perhaps you'd end up having to defect to another country or live in a foreign embassy to retain some semblance of freedom. I realize that's an extremely fatalist and cynical stance to take, but that's basically what you're up against. I have zero understanding what would need to be undertaken in order to get there, I have no understanding of marketing or funding. I don't have the first clue how you would begin to take such a stand. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken.
- mtberatwork 10y ago
  First, learn the difference between editorializing news and reporting. Then get out into the field and report, follow a code of conduct [1]. Start local. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standard...
badsock 10y ago
You're making a false equivalency between China and the West - it's a vast exaggeration to say it's "exactly the same shit" that's happening. There is absolutely propaganda in the West, and there is censorship, but by any objective measure there is much, much more of it in China.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  If it exists in both places at an institutional level is not false equivalency. The west has no shortage of propaganda. media complicity, censorship, and legislation drafted up in the name of "national security." You yourself admitted as much. Please tell us by which objective measure are you referring to? You mention "by any objective measure.", please enumerate what those "any" are.
  - badsock 10y ago
    Off the top of my head, the ability to run a web server without first getting approval from the government is a pretty obvious differenciator.
    - bogomipz 10y ago
      So just that one criteria? Thats it? I believe you are referring to an ICP license which would is more regulatory/bureaucracy than anything else. You are also wrong, you can still put a web server without an ICP license. You won't go to jail for not having one nor does not having an ICP license mean you will automatically be censored . However if you want to have a large online presence then yes you will need to get an ICP license because hosting provider won't allow you to order rack or cages without one. You should read this. https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/chinese-icp-licensing-what-why-and-how-to-get-hosted-in-china--cms-23193 https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/chinese-icp-licensin... source: I worked for a CDN that put servers in China.
      - badsock 10y ago
        From your link: "All sites hosted on a server in the Chinese mainland must, by law, apply for and receive one of these babies [an ICP License] before their site goes live, a rule enforced at the hosting level." The West doesn't require websites to display their licence number in their footers. They don't require printing presses to be registered with the government. True there's widespread surveillance, but there's no official and intrusive "great firewall": encrypted connections aren't throttled, there isn't widespread use of proxies just to simply _access_ popular sites in other countries. You can use whatever VPN you like in the West. Western movies are routinely banned in China, whereas I can't find a single example of a Chinese movie being banned in the Western world. Are you seriously making the claim that censorship in the West is literally at the same level as it in China? Because that's all I've said isn't true. I'm not saying that the West doesn't censor or propagandize, I'm saying that it (at least so far) hasn't engaged in to the same degree. I'm as angry at the media and the government surveillance in the West as anyone, but hyperbole does nothing to further the debate.
bogomipz 10y ago
Agreed. I was struck by this sentence: "and systematic identity verification of Internet users – measures that would make it virtually impossible to use the internet anonymously in China." Does anyone think for a minute that that doesn't exist in the West? You can't ignore this this sentence either: "The new law, arguably similar to what the Patriot Act was for the U.S. with legal clauses detailing national security, espionage and treason, reinforces the regime’s ability mount stronger charges in court."
mtberatwork 10y ago
Comparing Western journalism to Chinese censorship and its state run propaganda machine is disingenuous to say the least. I would suggest a thorough reading and contemplation of our freedoms [1] here before pulling out the propaganda/bias trope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press
- balabaster 10y ago
  It's humorous in the least that you would pull out Wikipedia as a source for such a comment about censorship given the well known and documented behaviour of their moderators. I don't think it's disingenuous in the slightest. I'm not arguing that the Chinese state run propaganda machine isn't bad... but have you got any first hand experience of it? Do you have any clue about it that you haven't learned from other sources? Can you trust those sources? I'm pretty well read and I don't know anything as fact any further than I did before I started reading. All I know is what other people present as evidence. I had no hand in collecting the evidence, I have no proof the evidence hasn't been tampered with or is even true. Do you? Unless you have first hand experience, what do you actually know for sure? This is my point.
  - smilekzs 10y ago
    At least you can access Wikipedia today, and you know with confidence that you can access it tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, next month, etc. This is a luxury in China. It has never been about specific outlets. It has always been about whether there are artificial obstacles between my computer and the rest of the free internet. Before you could even decide whether or not to believe what you see, in China you are simply blindfolded in a non-deterministic (to you) fashion.
qb45 10y ago
Well, fwiw, here's a sample of Chinese propaganda I once encountered on HN (a few people said it's real): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10965313 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10965313 I think (hope?) we haven't quite reached this level here.