4 ms·

I've been hammering on this issue for a while. While I can't stand Trump personally and many of the things he stands for, the fact is that the American left ha

by api 10y ago

I've been hammering on this issue for a while. While I can't stand Trump personally and many of the things he stands for, the fact is that the American left has enclosed itself in a small number of alpha cities (look at the county election map) and effectively written off the rest of the country. The objective fact is that it is impossible for American industry to the American worker to compete with industry in countries with no EPA, no OSHA, no workers comp, no unions, an artificially low currency, and artificially depressed wages. This isn't about being globally "competitive." It's just not a fair fight. If this is the reality of globalization then it means the working class in developed nations is permanently relegated to poverty and dependence. The latter goes radically against these peoples' values. They don't want welfare. They want jobs. Both liberals and old-guard conservatives have completely ignored this issue. Too many people are getting rich off labor arbitrage for one, but the more immediate reason is that it doesn't affect them very much. They tend to be urban, wealthy, and disconnected from the places and the people this issue does affect. Case in point: Orange County California (where I am sitting) is historically a Republican enclave but this year it went for Hillary. It's also very wealthy, educated, and fairly urban (and becoming more so). Meanwhile historically Democratic rural areas went Trump. You do the math. You can't write off your entire working class and rural population in a democracy. This is the result.

SimpleXYZ 10y ago
So what's the alternative? Protectionism? The rest of the world will be colonizing Pluto while we are self-sufficient with furniture. Look at all these chair building jobs! Each chair only costs $45,000 each. No, the US will never, ever be competitive with India and China on industrial labor even if we went laissez faire. We have to go the other way. Drastically reform and expand education and compete with Europe, not China. In other words, in order to maintain our standard of living, we need to be inventing and designing and leave the manufacturing and production to Asia. (Until the AI/robot game changer.)
- api 10y ago
  You're falling for the fallacy of the excluded middle. The alliterative is fairness. If we're going to have an EPA and OSHA and the rest, then we have to tax imports from places that don't in proportion to the degree that they don't. Otherwise we have to drop these protections and be content with huffing pollution. After all, if we want to enjoy super-cheap manufactured goods then it's only fair that we also "enjoy" the externalities of this production. Either way it's fair to our working class. They get jobs. I'm 100% in favor of free trade with other first world countries, where first world is defined as having these protections in place and having a living wage. This would be fair and would not lead to mass unemployment and economic destruction. Free trade with Canada, Europe, Australia, or Japan is not going to de-industrialize the entire USA. It might result in periodic disruption of certain industries (e.g. Japan with autos) but it would not result in the kind of total lasting decimation we are seeing. Edit: Cue someone coming in and citing some GDP stats and telling me everything is okay. Sorry, but you're wrong. The stats you are citing are not capturing the reality because they are including everything and everyone and everywhere. They are averages. Do a GDP stat and exclude San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, DC, Seattle, Portland, and college towns, and then we'll talk.
  - lightbyte 10y ago
    >If we're going to have an EPA and OSHA and the rest, then we have to tax imports from places that don't in proportion to the degree that they don't. Otherwise we have to drop these protections and be content with huffing pollution. After all, if we want to enjoy super-cheap manufactured goods then it's only fair that we also "enjoy" the externalities of this production. Either way it's fair to our working class. They get jobs. This doesn't make sense. Taxing imports like that would make the things the middle class needs even more expensive. Now not only do that not have jobs, they can't afford anything. Removing protections would not make jobs come back, there is zero benefit to the companies responsible for that. On the chance any did, congrats now some people can get a job for $1.00/hr to complete with the workers in Vietnam. Now they have jobs and still can't afford anything. The jobs that left are not coming back no matter what we do. There's no point arguing about it or trying to save the sicking ship because it's already at the bottom of the ocean in two pieces. We need accept this as a society and try to solve it, not try and go back in time.
waterphone 10y ago
The urban bubble is definitely a problem. There are so many people who simply do not understand life outside of that bubble and who dismiss anyone not part of it. Their solution for most problems rural people have is "move to a city", which rural people who enjoy their way of life but may still suffer from some challenges understandably find offensive and dismissive. I say this as a somewhat left-leaning person who lives in an extremely rural area, in my own little bubble of mostly liberal people. The thing is, however, that there are a lot of ignorant, racist and proud people in rural areas. Some of them are people I know. It can be overwhelmingly offensive being around them in groups as they reveal just how racist they actually are, with a smile and a laugh, either not caring how others might think about them or not realizing why what they just said is offensive. Go to a gas station or small store or mechanic around where I live and you'll encounter people standing around and talking about how Trump's going to round up all the Mexicans and Muslims and kick them out finally, or celebrating the fact that "Trump's going to finally lock up Hillary". So, I'm torn. It's a stereotype of rural life that people are ignorant and racist, but it does in fact describe a lot of people. And post-Trump, they've been emboldened to speak their mind more openly.
- DamnYuppie 10y ago
  I am not disagreeing with your comment. I too know many rural people who are very opinionated in matters of race. Yet I am very frustrated that the concept of racism is a one way street from white people to everyone else. I have spent plenty of time in urban environments across north America and many of their inhabitants exhibit the exact same behaviors. If we are to improve we need to accept that we all have prejudices and need to be candid about them. It is okay not to like everyone, yet it isn't okay to persecute, demean, ostracize, or otherwise oppress them. This needs to be a mindset across the political, social, and racial spectrum.
- maxsilver 10y ago
  > Their solution for most problems rural people have is "move to a city" Which is doubly troubling, since nearly every major city is massively rejecting new residents, either through insane cost-of-living rises, or through literal persuasion from residents admonishing them "Don't move to Portland / Seattle / Denver / Austin / wherever". You can't tell rural people "you must move to a city to survive" and then also tell them "screw you, we don't want you in our city"
norea-armozel 10y ago
Those jobs are never coming back, though. For example, when China basically sucked up all the textile jobs in the 80s-90s from the South (states like North Carolina) they were able to do so with very cheap wages. Now? China is competing with Vietnam for those same jobs and their solution is to automate as much as possible. Oddly enough, some of those textile jobs remain and only because we've been ahead of the curve with automation. A textile plant today in the US has very few actual employees. And they're not paid much more than their predecessors since the cost of living in their area is very low. So, Trump either has to get a time machine or figure out a way to pay these people who have been permanently displaced in their jobs. Trump won't do what's needed which is the one thing that will ultimately set the country on the right course: abandon capitalism. And by the way, nor would Clinton do what I'm suggesting here since she knows who butters her bread.
- MR4D 10y ago
  I'm not sure that you can accurately say that those jobs are never coming back. For instance, what happens if Congress passes a law that requires any goods imported into the US to be made under conditions equal to those here? For instance, you have to have environmentally friendly factories, OSHA-approved lighting and safety, etc. etc. If that happened, many people would put some of the production here to speed time to market, reduce shipping costs, and eliminate currency fluctuations. So never say never.
  - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
    So you bring the machines back but that won't create the levels of unskilled employment from the past, manufacturers employee a fraction of the people they used to.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      If the revenue is local, you can tax it and provide a social safety net. Works using tariffs as well, but better to have the industry on your own soil.

by api 10y ago

SimpleXYZ 10y ago

So what's the alternative? Protectionism? The rest of the world will be colonizing Pluto while we are self-sufficient with furniture. Look at all these chair building jobs! Each chair only costs $45,000 each. No, the US will never, ever be competitive with India and China on industrial labor even if we went laissez faire. We have to go the other way. Drastically reform and expand education and compete with Europe, not China. In other words, in order to maintain our standard of living, we need to be inventing and designing and leave the manufacturing and production to Asia. (Until the AI/robot game changer.)

api 10y ago
You're falling for the fallacy of the excluded middle. The alliterative is fairness. If we're going to have an EPA and OSHA and the rest, then we have to tax imports from places that don't in proportion to the degree that they don't. Otherwise we have to drop these protections and be content with huffing pollution. After all, if we want to enjoy super-cheap manufactured goods then it's only fair that we also "enjoy" the externalities of this production. Either way it's fair to our working class. They get jobs. I'm 100% in favor of free trade with other first world countries, where first world is defined as having these protections in place and having a living wage. This would be fair and would not lead to mass unemployment and economic destruction. Free trade with Canada, Europe, Australia, or Japan is not going to de-industrialize the entire USA. It might result in periodic disruption of certain industries (e.g. Japan with autos) but it would not result in the kind of total lasting decimation we are seeing. Edit: Cue someone coming in and citing some GDP stats and telling me everything is okay. Sorry, but you're wrong. The stats you are citing are not capturing the reality because they are including everything and everyone and everywhere. They are averages. Do a GDP stat and exclude San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, DC, Seattle, Portland, and college towns, and then we'll talk.
- lightbyte 10y ago
  >If we're going to have an EPA and OSHA and the rest, then we have to tax imports from places that don't in proportion to the degree that they don't. Otherwise we have to drop these protections and be content with huffing pollution. After all, if we want to enjoy super-cheap manufactured goods then it's only fair that we also "enjoy" the externalities of this production. Either way it's fair to our working class. They get jobs. This doesn't make sense. Taxing imports like that would make the things the middle class needs even more expensive. Now not only do that not have jobs, they can't afford anything. Removing protections would not make jobs come back, there is zero benefit to the companies responsible for that. On the chance any did, congrats now some people can get a job for $1.00/hr to complete with the workers in Vietnam. Now they have jobs and still can't afford anything. The jobs that left are not coming back no matter what we do. There's no point arguing about it or trying to save the sicking ship because it's already at the bottom of the ocean in two pieces. We need accept this as a society and try to solve it, not try and go back in time.

waterphone 10y ago

The urban bubble is definitely a problem. There are so many people who simply do not understand life outside of that bubble and who dismiss anyone not part of it. Their solution for most problems rural people have is "move to a city", which rural people who enjoy their way of life but may still suffer from some challenges understandably find offensive and dismissive. I say this as a somewhat left-leaning person who lives in an extremely rural area, in my own little bubble of mostly liberal people. The thing is, however, that there are a lot of ignorant, racist and proud people in rural areas. Some of them are people I know. It can be overwhelmingly offensive being around them in groups as they reveal just how racist they actually are, with a smile and a laugh, either not caring how others might think about them or not realizing why what they just said is offensive. Go to a gas station or small store or mechanic around where I live and you'll encounter people standing around and talking about how Trump's going to round up all the Mexicans and Muslims and kick them out finally, or celebrating the fact that "Trump's going to finally lock up Hillary". So, I'm torn. It's a stereotype of rural life that people are ignorant and racist, but it does in fact describe a lot of people. And post-Trump, they've been emboldened to speak their mind more openly.

DamnYuppie 10y ago
I am not disagreeing with your comment. I too know many rural people who are very opinionated in matters of race. Yet I am very frustrated that the concept of racism is a one way street from white people to everyone else. I have spent plenty of time in urban environments across north America and many of their inhabitants exhibit the exact same behaviors. If we are to improve we need to accept that we all have prejudices and need to be candid about them. It is okay not to like everyone, yet it isn't okay to persecute, demean, ostracize, or otherwise oppress them. This needs to be a mindset across the political, social, and racial spectrum.
maxsilver 10y ago
> Their solution for most problems rural people have is "move to a city" Which is doubly troubling, since nearly every major city is massively rejecting new residents, either through insane cost-of-living rises, or through literal persuasion from residents admonishing them "Don't move to Portland / Seattle / Denver / Austin / wherever". You can't tell rural people "you must move to a city to survive" and then also tell them "screw you, we don't want you in our city"

norea-armozel 10y ago

Those jobs are never coming back, though. For example, when China basically sucked up all the textile jobs in the 80s-90s from the South (states like North Carolina) they were able to do so with very cheap wages. Now? China is competing with Vietnam for those same jobs and their solution is to automate as much as possible. Oddly enough, some of those textile jobs remain and only because we've been ahead of the curve with automation. A textile plant today in the US has very few actual employees. And they're not paid much more than their predecessors since the cost of living in their area is very low. So, Trump either has to get a time machine or figure out a way to pay these people who have been permanently displaced in their jobs. Trump won't do what's needed which is the one thing that will ultimately set the country on the right course: abandon capitalism. And by the way, nor would Clinton do what I'm suggesting here since she knows who butters her bread.

MR4D 10y ago
I'm not sure that you can accurately say that those jobs are never coming back. For instance, what happens if Congress passes a law that requires any goods imported into the US to be made under conditions equal to those here? For instance, you have to have environmentally friendly factories, OSHA-approved lighting and safety, etc. etc. If that happened, many people would put some of the production here to speed time to market, reduce shipping costs, and eliminate currency fluctuations. So never say never.
- tonyedgecombe 10y ago
  So you bring the machines back but that won't create the levels of unskilled employment from the past, manufacturers employee a fraction of the people they used to.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    If the revenue is local, you can tax it and provide a social safety net. Works using tariffs as well, but better to have the industry on your own soil.