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But it is happening. That is a fact. I see it in my own social circle. Friends who have spent many years defending "centrist" Democrats, and now they finally se

But it is happening. That is a fact. I see it in my own social circle. Friends who have spent many years defending "centrist" Democrats, and now they finally see that "centrists" are the problem. They are waking up. They are seeing the need for something more radical. I've had some variation of that conversation a dozen times in the last 48 hours. And of course, it isn't just my friends. It is happening all over the country. This election will mark the end of the "centrist" Democrat. That really is the only benefit that this election brings.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
unimpressive 10y ago
Be careful not to learn the wrong lessons from Bernie Sanders. I supported Bernie because he was old school hard left and largely avoided identity politics and scandal. I'm not frustrated with 'centrist' Democrats as much as I'm frustrated with all the people who pooh-poohed me when I said that Hillary Clinton seemed like a sleazy person who had a deep closet full of skeletons. I was told that these were personality flaws I was supposed to overlook in favor of 'electability' even though I knew full well they were why she's not electable. I'm frustrated with the people who told me I'm a 'Bernie Bro' for having standards, and that my fundamental objection to Hillary is that she's a woman.[0] Hillary didn't lose because she's a woman, she lost because she's a condescending crook. - A Washington State alternate for Sanders who voted for Clinton in the general [0]: In fact I found this latter accusation so offensive that I considered going full rogue and voting Trump.
- Fordrus 10y ago
  In response to [0], I believe there are a LOT of folks who actually did precisely that.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Naritai 10y ago
    And those people are exactly the problem. They are willing to throw away the Supreme Court, climate change, and fair immigration all over a perceived personal slight.
    - oldmanjay 10y ago
      Your lack of imagination is not a compelling explanation of the political motivations of millions of people you want to pretend don't count
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - Naritai 10y ago
        ? OP calls out a specific motivation. The motivation of the subgroup references is very clear. It's you who is trying to expand that to a generalization.
        oldmanjay 10y ago
        OP et al assert a particular motivation of a general population, which is hardly not generalizing.
kahrkunne 10y ago
Yes, we need more radicals of the shit everybody is fucking tired of. Do you want trump to win even bigger?
- pessimizer 10y ago
  Trump didn't win because he was on the right. He beat the entire Republican establishment and the tea party rabble before he beat Clinton, and on most subjects he ran to the left of every single one of them. The shit everybody is fucking tired of is the Clintons, and their friends. McCain: 60 million votes; Romney: 60 million votes; Trump: 60 million votes. Obama: 72 million votes; Obama 2: 66 million votes; Clinton: 60 million votes.
  - hga 10y ago
    "tea party rabble"? Thanks for sharing that with us. But he ran strongly to the right of the GOPe on: Immigration The Muslim subset of that Globalism The Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) Political Correctness Related, respect for the Mainstream Media (we'll know he's really serious if he takes the advice to abolish the White House Press Corps). Need more? I'm sure I can come up with more. But you're 100% right that "everybody is fucking tired of ... the Clintons", and after having them "live rent free in my brain" for 24 years (!!!) I'm profoundly glad Trump put them in the ash heap of history. Except I have expect Master Level Troll Obama (something he has in common with Trump) to not pardon them, to not "end our long national nightmare" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inauguration_of_Gerald_Ford)WRT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inauguration_of_Gerald_Ford)WR... to them.
  - douche 10y ago
    What those numbers show, at first glance, is the characterization of Bush 2 as an idiotic war-mongering chimpanzee has finally worn off in the forefront of the national consciousness.
leereeves 10y ago
The left is alienating centrists in droves. Your social circle may be made up of extremists who won't tolerate diversity of opinion, but there are many, many centrists in this country and if this election does mark the end of the "centrist" Democrat, it may mark the beginning of Republican rule.
- paganel 10y ago
  > The left is alienating centrists in droves. It's the same thing that has been happening in Britain, where the Labour party as lead by Corbyn is miles behind the Conservatives (who in turn have made blunder after blunder).
  - jalfresi 10y ago
    In my circle of friends I've seen that the spectre of Nu-Labour, the very centrist version of Labour (often referred to as Diet-Tory) was responsible for the Iraq war. I know people that would rather back a Corbyn and his Old-School Labour, even if that means that Labour is less electable, as long as it means that their principles are intact. Not saying I agree with that at all but thats what I see in a large circle of leftist, northern middle-age/class people.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      Indeed. It's complicated; people are finally, after Chilcot, willing to cut off everyone who supported the Iraq war. It's a symbol of a particular kind of bad moral compromise. Unfortunately, it's compromise that won Blair his elections; he offered a middle-class, British-nationalist (remember Cool Brittania?) business-friendly Labour party. Which worked brilliantly until Iraq. Corbyn is a disaster and has no new ideas - he's not even a reliable Brexitsceptic. His only advantage is being free of the taint of Blairite compromise. But who else is there? Possibly Tom Watson. Someone really needs to come up with a good answer to the question "what is the point of the Labour party?" other than "not being the Tory party". (Don't blame me, I'm voting SNP, who give exactly the kind of reliable centrist technocracy that's extremely popular with actual voters.)
Noseshine 10y ago
So the approach is: When running straight into the wall doesn't work (i.e. ignoring the issues and simply calling everyone "stupid", "racist", etc.), we must try harder (we must fight them)! Okaaaayyyy...
- hga 10y ago
  "Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake", a maxim attributed to Napoleon, works well for what I'll label as the Alt-Right here, defining us as those who's response to being called racist is "We Don't Care" instead of automatic surrender. John Stewart even made fun of this particular attack 6 years ago (http://www.cc.com/video-clips/m0pvy5/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-race-card-is-maxed-out http://www.cc.com/video-clips/m0pvy5/the-daily-show-with-jon...), and our principle easily extends to all the other accusations the Left thinks are still effective in their "fight".
tomp 10y ago
I lean left, but I'm highly disgusted by extremist leftist tacticts, exemplified by the fact that the media feminists can't even take a fucking joke (e.g. Justine Sacco and Tim Hunt). When you're so far left that you see everyone as the enemy, you're no longer progressive, but regressive, oppressive. And when people revolt, you double down. As if you wanted Trump to get his second term.
douche 10y ago
That's a recipe for further division. We're going to end up with two populations with completely disjoint Overton Windows, and even worse, they won't be geographically disjoint. We'll have two choices; try to bring things back together somewhere in the middle, or bloody and violent civil war.
- hga 10y ago
  You sure continuing our mostly cold civil war isn't an option in the middle? What would spark the bloody and violent civil war? Seriously, me and mine are prepared for one and continuously upping our preparations (note, those hold as well for many/most disasters), but we don't see specifics on the horizon, didn't even WRT to Hillary labeling us as irredeemable. What would be the Fort Sumter? Which, I'll note, happened over 3 months after the state succeeded. Since I don't see any prospects for "try[ing] to bring things back together somewhere in the middle" after what my side perceives as an unrelenting and pretty much ever increasing assault from the Left for over a century (the Progressives, not to mention our latest reaction of God-Emperor Ascendant, excuse me, President Elect Trump (!!)), I'm really hoping for some sort of middle option.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

unimpressive 10y ago

Be careful not to learn the wrong lessons from Bernie Sanders. I supported Bernie because he was old school hard left and largely avoided identity politics and scandal. I'm not frustrated with 'centrist' Democrats as much as I'm frustrated with all the people who pooh-poohed me when I said that Hillary Clinton seemed like a sleazy person who had a deep closet full of skeletons. I was told that these were personality flaws I was supposed to overlook in favor of 'electability' even though I knew full well they were why she's not electable. I'm frustrated with the people who told me I'm a 'Bernie Bro' for having standards, and that my fundamental objection to Hillary is that she's a woman.[0] Hillary didn't lose because she's a woman, she lost because she's a condescending crook. - A Washington State alternate for Sanders who voted for Clinton in the general [0]: In fact I found this latter accusation so offensive that I considered going full rogue and voting Trump.

Fordrus 10y ago
In response to [0], I believe there are a LOT of folks who actually did precisely that.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Naritai 10y ago
  And those people are exactly the problem. They are willing to throw away the Supreme Court, climate change, and fair immigration all over a perceived personal slight.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    Your lack of imagination is not a compelling explanation of the political motivations of millions of people you want to pretend don't count
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Naritai 10y ago
      ? OP calls out a specific motivation. The motivation of the subgroup references is very clear. It's you who is trying to expand that to a generalization.
      - oldmanjay 10y ago
        OP et al assert a particular motivation of a general population, which is hardly not generalizing.

kahrkunne 10y ago

Yes, we need more radicals of the shit everybody is fucking tired of. Do you want trump to win even bigger?

pessimizer 10y ago
Trump didn't win because he was on the right. He beat the entire Republican establishment and the tea party rabble before he beat Clinton, and on most subjects he ran to the left of every single one of them. The shit everybody is fucking tired of is the Clintons, and their friends. McCain: 60 million votes; Romney: 60 million votes; Trump: 60 million votes. Obama: 72 million votes; Obama 2: 66 million votes; Clinton: 60 million votes.
- hga 10y ago
  "tea party rabble"? Thanks for sharing that with us. But he ran strongly to the right of the GOPe on: Immigration The Muslim subset of that Globalism The Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) Political Correctness Related, respect for the Mainstream Media (we'll know he's really serious if he takes the advice to abolish the White House Press Corps). Need more? I'm sure I can come up with more. But you're 100% right that "everybody is fucking tired of ... the Clintons", and after having them "live rent free in my brain" for 24 years (!!!) I'm profoundly glad Trump put them in the ash heap of history. Except I have expect Master Level Troll Obama (something he has in common with Trump) to not pardon them, to not "end our long national nightmare" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inauguration_of_Gerald_Ford)WRT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inauguration_of_Gerald_Ford)WR... to them.
- douche 10y ago
  What those numbers show, at first glance, is the characterization of Bush 2 as an idiotic war-mongering chimpanzee has finally worn off in the forefront of the national consciousness.

leereeves 10y ago

The left is alienating centrists in droves. Your social circle may be made up of extremists who won't tolerate diversity of opinion, but there are many, many centrists in this country and if this election does mark the end of the "centrist" Democrat, it may mark the beginning of Republican rule.

paganel 10y ago
> The left is alienating centrists in droves. It's the same thing that has been happening in Britain, where the Labour party as lead by Corbyn is miles behind the Conservatives (who in turn have made blunder after blunder).
- jalfresi 10y ago
  In my circle of friends I've seen that the spectre of Nu-Labour, the very centrist version of Labour (often referred to as Diet-Tory) was responsible for the Iraq war. I know people that would rather back a Corbyn and his Old-School Labour, even if that means that Labour is less electable, as long as it means that their principles are intact. Not saying I agree with that at all but thats what I see in a large circle of leftist, northern middle-age/class people.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Indeed. It's complicated; people are finally, after Chilcot, willing to cut off everyone who supported the Iraq war. It's a symbol of a particular kind of bad moral compromise. Unfortunately, it's compromise that won Blair his elections; he offered a middle-class, British-nationalist (remember Cool Brittania?) business-friendly Labour party. Which worked brilliantly until Iraq. Corbyn is a disaster and has no new ideas - he's not even a reliable Brexitsceptic. His only advantage is being free of the taint of Blairite compromise. But who else is there? Possibly Tom Watson. Someone really needs to come up with a good answer to the question "what is the point of the Labour party?" other than "not being the Tory party". (Don't blame me, I'm voting SNP, who give exactly the kind of reliable centrist technocracy that's extremely popular with actual voters.)

Noseshine 10y ago

So the approach is: When running straight into the wall doesn't work (i.e. ignoring the issues and simply calling everyone "stupid", "racist", etc.), we must try harder (we must fight them)! Okaaaayyyy...

hga 10y ago
"Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake", a maxim attributed to Napoleon, works well for what I'll label as the Alt-Right here, defining us as those who's response to being called racist is "We Don't Care" instead of automatic surrender. John Stewart even made fun of this particular attack 6 years ago (http://www.cc.com/video-clips/m0pvy5/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-race-card-is-maxed-out http://www.cc.com/video-clips/m0pvy5/the-daily-show-with-jon...), and our principle easily extends to all the other accusations the Left thinks are still effective in their "fight".

tomp 10y ago

I lean left, but I'm highly disgusted by extremist leftist tacticts, exemplified by the fact that the media feminists can't even take a fucking joke (e.g. Justine Sacco and Tim Hunt). When you're so far left that you see everyone as the enemy, you're no longer progressive, but regressive, oppressive. And when people revolt, you double down. As if you wanted Trump to get his second term.

douche 10y ago

That's a recipe for further division. We're going to end up with two populations with completely disjoint Overton Windows, and even worse, they won't be geographically disjoint. We'll have two choices; try to bring things back together somewhere in the middle, or bloody and violent civil war.

hga 10y ago
You sure continuing our mostly cold civil war isn't an option in the middle? What would spark the bloody and violent civil war? Seriously, me and mine are prepared for one and continuously upping our preparations (note, those hold as well for many/most disasters), but we don't see specifics on the horizon, didn't even WRT to Hillary labeling us as irredeemable. What would be the Fort Sumter? Which, I'll note, happened over 3 months after the state succeeded. Since I don't see any prospects for "try[ing] to bring things back together somewhere in the middle" after what my side perceives as an unrelenting and pretty much ever increasing assault from the Left for over a century (the Progressives, not to mention our latest reaction of God-Emperor Ascendant, excuse me, President Elect Trump (!!)), I'm really hoping for some sort of middle option.