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> for many weak liberals who thought that it was okay to be "centrist." I feel like they are finally waking up to the fact that this is a war. This kind of div

> for many weak liberals who thought that it was okay to be "centrist." I feel like they are finally waking up to the fact that this is a war. This kind of divisive and baseless finger-pointing at moderates is what is wrong with US politics. To see it on the liberal side is both ironic and painful. For years the gop ousted moderates in its ranks as RINO's (Republican In Name Only). This approach badly damaged the party: it left them with no standing among young voters, formerly moderate McCain went hard to the right for a presidential primary and never came back to center. Senator Olympia Snowe resigned and penned a famous open letter denouncing this very ostracizing of moderate republicans. It has taken nearly a decade for the republicans to present a candidate with social policies that are not entirely at odds with the under 30 demographic. Trump may be socially distasteful, but he is is not looking to repeal gay marriage and plans to keep pot a "states issue". Imagine hearing that from a GOP candidate 4 years ago. Now that the GOP has a winning candidate, your answer is to double-down, and call the moderates in your party "weak"? Listen, political stances are neither weak nor strong. They are opinions based in personal experience, individual ethics, and our respective priorities. There is no "right" answer here. There is no "war" being fought. This is how democracy works. The pendulum swings one way and then the other. Comparing the result of this election to french soldiers being sent to nazi camps is perhaps the single most absurd analogy i have seen since the primaries kicked off. And that is saying a great deal given the ridiculousness we have all suffered the past 18 months. Shameful.

generic_user 10y ago
I agree that the Democratic party in the hands of the 'new' identity politics Left with Bernie Sanders style leaders is going to crash and burn much harder then the Republican Neo-cons were able to destroyed the Republicans. But really, what choice do the Democrats have but to go as far into the kaleidescope of identity as then can go? The DNC has been totally disgraced as a sham. Its a puppet establishment in the pocket of Wall street and the Corporate Globalists just as much as the Bush Neo-cons were. There is nothing left of the Democratic party for the working class. They threw the European Americas overboard as 'irredeemable deplorable'. And they think the melting pot and Integration are Racist oppressive ideas of the Patriarchy. The idea that America should have one national language is Racist. The idea that people need legal citizenship in order to vote and collect services is literally Hitler level oppression. How are you going to bring that back to a 'Center'? Is there even a center for the Democrats anymore that includes The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence that was written by White Men who owned Slaves? As bad as the problems are for the Republicans there nothing compared with what is happening to the Democrats.
- hga 10y ago
  They threw the European Americas overboard as 'irredeemable deplorable'. Eh, no, half weren't irredeemable fit only for liquidation, half were judged capable of being reeducated. That's important to the extend fewer people believed they belonged in the irredeemable camp, those of us who did got "crawl over broken glass" motivated to vote against Hillary. How are you going to bring that back to a 'Center'? Is there even a center for the Democrats anymore that includes The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence that was written by White Men who owned Slaves? Disrespect for both documents long precedes the identity politics that now condemn them, so I'm not sure it's a new thing so much as a new excuse. I don't think there's any bringing back that center, at least for the foreseeable future. It takes only one side polarizing things enough (for the purposes of my point, it doesn't matter which side you think did it), to where both sides view those in the middle who claim to belong to their side as traitors.
- tomp 10y ago
  Sanders was representing actual issues (economic einequality), not mostly imaginary issues (identity politics) that the elites use to divide and conquer the populace. That was Hillary.
  - 7Z7 10y ago
    You are doing exactly what the article and the comments above are slating the left for doing: turning the issues that actually affect the other side every day, or which they want treated as important, into "imaginary issues". You think identity politics are imaginary to the various minorities (of all descriptions) who just want equal footing and the ability to not deal with race and gender every day of their lives?
    - tomp 10y ago
      If that was their real concern, they wouldn't subscribe to feminism and/or social justice. E.g. even the idea of women being a minority is bullshit (they're actually a majority). Feminism focuses on solving problems for a specific group of people. That's bigotry, pure and simple. Let's rather focus on solving problems for everyone who's affected. And that was exactly what Sanders was doing - economic inequality is largely at the source of all the issues described (e.g. the fact that blacks commit more crime - which in turn pins "whites" (i.e. the majority) against them - could largely be solved by removing them from poverty). Identity politics is largely just an elite "divide and conquer" tactics that's making the lower/middle class groups hate each other.
lkrubner 10y ago
But it is happening. That is a fact. I see it in my own social circle. Friends who have spent many years defending "centrist" Democrats, and now they finally see that "centrists" are the problem. They are waking up. They are seeing the need for something more radical. I've had some variation of that conversation a dozen times in the last 48 hours. And of course, it isn't just my friends. It is happening all over the country. This election will mark the end of the "centrist" Democrat. That really is the only benefit that this election brings.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- unimpressive 10y ago
  Be careful not to learn the wrong lessons from Bernie Sanders. I supported Bernie because he was old school hard left and largely avoided identity politics and scandal. I'm not frustrated with 'centrist' Democrats as much as I'm frustrated with all the people who pooh-poohed me when I said that Hillary Clinton seemed like a sleazy person who had a deep closet full of skeletons. I was told that these were personality flaws I was supposed to overlook in favor of 'electability' even though I knew full well they were why she's not electable. I'm frustrated with the people who told me I'm a 'Bernie Bro' for having standards, and that my fundamental objection to Hillary is that she's a woman.[0] Hillary didn't lose because she's a woman, she lost because she's a condescending crook. - A Washington State alternate for Sanders who voted for Clinton in the general [0]: In fact I found this latter accusation so offensive that I considered going full rogue and voting Trump.
  - Fordrus 10y ago
    In response to [0], I believe there are a LOT of folks who actually did precisely that.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Naritai 10y ago
alistproducer2 10y ago
You literally made the best argument against your point. It was only when the GOP base got extreme, did they get a "winning candidate."
- cmac2992 10y ago
  And house, Senate, governers and state legislators
  - hga 10y ago
    It was noted by ... University of Tennessee Law School professor Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds or one of his co-bloggers that with this election, the last remaining Democratic state house in the South fell to the Republicans. I note that, somewhat to my surprise, in what's considered to be the Purple state of my home Missouri, the Republicans ran the tables this year at the state level, and we had some very good reasons to vote for the Democratic gubernatorial candidate this year (as I did), but he lost by twice the margin of our Senate race, where as I saw it the differences were more clear. The Carnahan dynasty also lost a statewide race. Only thing off hand I can think that makes sense of those two results is that there was a strong anti-establishment vote, which made the Senate race that much closer. And I guess no one, or no one credible enough, see all our discussion of the decline and fall of our Lügenpresse in this topic, was able to sufficiently point out that the non-establishment Republican gubernatorial candidate was a weasel with no moral courage. Heck, I stopped reading that part of my local paper when rather early on they endorsed Hillary for her foreign policy experience. Call it disastrously neocon, call it as I do setting a large part of the world on fire and palpably wanting to start a shooting war with Russia, the only county which can end the US in 30 minutes ... well, I'll also note the paper turned off comments for that article. It certainly didn't make any difference in my county's voting numbers.

generic_user 10y ago

I agree that the Democratic party in the hands of the 'new' identity politics Left with Bernie Sanders style leaders is going to crash and burn much harder then the Republican Neo-cons were able to destroyed the Republicans. But really, what choice do the Democrats have but to go as far into the kaleidescope of identity as then can go? The DNC has been totally disgraced as a sham. Its a puppet establishment in the pocket of Wall street and the Corporate Globalists just as much as the Bush Neo-cons were. There is nothing left of the Democratic party for the working class. They threw the European Americas overboard as 'irredeemable deplorable'. And they think the melting pot and Integration are Racist oppressive ideas of the Patriarchy. The idea that America should have one national language is Racist. The idea that people need legal citizenship in order to vote and collect services is literally Hitler level oppression. How are you going to bring that back to a 'Center'? Is there even a center for the Democrats anymore that includes The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence that was written by White Men who owned Slaves? As bad as the problems are for the Republicans there nothing compared with what is happening to the Democrats.

hga 10y ago
They threw the European Americas overboard as 'irredeemable deplorable'. Eh, no, half weren't irredeemable fit only for liquidation, half were judged capable of being reeducated. That's important to the extend fewer people believed they belonged in the irredeemable camp, those of us who did got "crawl over broken glass" motivated to vote against Hillary. How are you going to bring that back to a 'Center'? Is there even a center for the Democrats anymore that includes The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence that was written by White Men who owned Slaves? Disrespect for both documents long precedes the identity politics that now condemn them, so I'm not sure it's a new thing so much as a new excuse. I don't think there's any bringing back that center, at least for the foreseeable future. It takes only one side polarizing things enough (for the purposes of my point, it doesn't matter which side you think did it), to where both sides view those in the middle who claim to belong to their side as traitors.
tomp 10y ago
Sanders was representing actual issues (economic einequality), not mostly imaginary issues (identity politics) that the elites use to divide and conquer the populace. That was Hillary.
- 7Z7 10y ago
  You are doing exactly what the article and the comments above are slating the left for doing: turning the issues that actually affect the other side every day, or which they want treated as important, into "imaginary issues". You think identity politics are imaginary to the various minorities (of all descriptions) who just want equal footing and the ability to not deal with race and gender every day of their lives?
  - tomp 10y ago
    If that was their real concern, they wouldn't subscribe to feminism and/or social justice. E.g. even the idea of women being a minority is bullshit (they're actually a majority). Feminism focuses on solving problems for a specific group of people. That's bigotry, pure and simple. Let's rather focus on solving problems for everyone who's affected. And that was exactly what Sanders was doing - economic inequality is largely at the source of all the issues described (e.g. the fact that blacks commit more crime - which in turn pins "whites" (i.e. the majority) against them - could largely be solved by removing them from poverty). Identity politics is largely just an elite "divide and conquer" tactics that's making the lower/middle class groups hate each other.

lkrubner 10y ago

But it is happening. That is a fact. I see it in my own social circle. Friends who have spent many years defending "centrist" Democrats, and now they finally see that "centrists" are the problem. They are waking up. They are seeing the need for something more radical. I've had some variation of that conversation a dozen times in the last 48 hours. And of course, it isn't just my friends. It is happening all over the country. This election will mark the end of the "centrist" Democrat. That really is the only benefit that this election brings.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
unimpressive 10y ago
Be careful not to learn the wrong lessons from Bernie Sanders. I supported Bernie because he was old school hard left and largely avoided identity politics and scandal. I'm not frustrated with 'centrist' Democrats as much as I'm frustrated with all the people who pooh-poohed me when I said that Hillary Clinton seemed like a sleazy person who had a deep closet full of skeletons. I was told that these were personality flaws I was supposed to overlook in favor of 'electability' even though I knew full well they were why she's not electable. I'm frustrated with the people who told me I'm a 'Bernie Bro' for having standards, and that my fundamental objection to Hillary is that she's a woman.[0] Hillary didn't lose because she's a woman, she lost because she's a condescending crook. - A Washington State alternate for Sanders who voted for Clinton in the general [0]: In fact I found this latter accusation so offensive that I considered going full rogue and voting Trump.
- Fordrus 10y ago
  In response to [0], I believe there are a LOT of folks who actually did precisely that.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Naritai 10y ago

alistproducer2 10y ago

You literally made the best argument against your point. It was only when the GOP base got extreme, did they get a "winning candidate."

cmac2992 10y ago
And house, Senate, governers and state legislators
- hga 10y ago
  It was noted by ... University of Tennessee Law School professor Glenn "Instapundit" Reynolds or one of his co-bloggers that with this election, the last remaining Democratic state house in the South fell to the Republicans. I note that, somewhat to my surprise, in what's considered to be the Purple state of my home Missouri, the Republicans ran the tables this year at the state level, and we had some very good reasons to vote for the Democratic gubernatorial candidate this year (as I did), but he lost by twice the margin of our Senate race, where as I saw it the differences were more clear. The Carnahan dynasty also lost a statewide race. Only thing off hand I can think that makes sense of those two results is that there was a strong anti-establishment vote, which made the Senate race that much closer. And I guess no one, or no one credible enough, see all our discussion of the decline and fall of our Lügenpresse in this topic, was able to sufficiently point out that the non-establishment Republican gubernatorial candidate was a weasel with no moral courage. Heck, I stopped reading that part of my local paper when rather early on they endorsed Hillary for her foreign policy experience. Call it disastrously neocon, call it as I do setting a large part of the world on fire and palpably wanting to start a shooting war with Russia, the only county which can end the US in 30 minutes ... well, I'll also note the paper turned off comments for that article. It certainly didn't make any difference in my county's voting numbers.