5 ms·

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands app

by awjr 10y ago

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to manage and overcome their addiction brings significantly better long-term results to society. More interestingly the article mentions that dangerous criminals are locked up, but also vulnerable individuals that have broken the law and because the best help to get them back on track is within the prison system. Dutch prisons are not just there to incarcerate, but to help people back to being fully functioning members of society. To get "revolving door" prisoners down to 10% vs 56% in the UK is a huge achievement.

spiderfarmer 10y ago
It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates. A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working. The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Police_officers,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Prison_population,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  > The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.... Whose police and security forces are also underfunded. Apart from the usual "hey, new idea: let's increase pensions!" you need to do to win in an ageing country, this is the big topic in the upcoming election.
  - heisenbit 10y ago
    The security forces are always underfunded. The crime level however is not so much increasing as it is always painted by interested lobbyists. For anyone looking for a deep dive: https://www.bka.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/Expertensuche_Formular.html https://www.bka.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/Expertensuche_For... (Wikipedia link is broken). Of course stats fluctuate and one always can find things that increase and that is reported. Context is usually left out. In 2015 it was increase of cars reported stolen (about half are recovered later). Here are the numbers: 2015: 35.941 (19.391) 2014: 34.653 (18.549) 2013: 35.696 (19.395) 2012: 34.176 (18.554) 2011: 35.564 (19.318) Yes, there were more cars reported as stolen in 2015 than in 2013. But looking beyond the headlines there were even more recovered. Either funding of police increased, police became more effective or thieves more stupid. Clearly there are areas where crime is on the rise. But then there are also areas where crime is falling. It is always easier to grow than making these adjustments. But in a not so fast growing society not all of these shifts are avoidable.
- pmyjavec 10y ago
  Also, the Dutch are very lenient on drug (recreational) users and the sale of drugs.
  - awjr 10y ago
    I see that as a good thing.
    - pmyjavec 10y ago
      Oh absolutely, I think that's why jails are empty.
johnchristopher 10y ago
I take it you are from the Netherlands or living there. I have been in Belgium for some years now. What's your position on Belgium outsourcing and renting cells in the Netherlands ?
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  Not parent, but also from a neighbouring country. I think as long as the landlord is not from the private sector, and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff, I see no reason why not to share all kinds of resources this way within the EU. Belgium does this for Luxembourg all the time, Germany and France mostly do it symbolically (joined military forces etc.). Would like to see more of this, especially when there are monetary benefits for both sides.
  - gcp 10y ago
    and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff In the case of Belgium and The Netherlands, there probably is. A sizable minority of Belgians speak French, not Dutch, and due to poorer economic prospects they might also make up more than half the prison population. But I assume that for people arrested for crimes in the Dutch speaking part, being jailed by someone you can't understand is Your Own Damn Fault. I mean, if they arrest Eastern Europeans then what are they going to do? Get prison wards to learn a bunch of Slav/Russian dialects? Edit: Checking the facts, over 60% of the prison population is not actually Belgian, and this EC report: http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/bel/2012-19-inf-eng.htm http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/bel/2012-19-inf-eng.htm "34. At the time of the 2009 periodic visit, the Belgian authorities had stated that, in principle, French-speaking prisoners were not considered for transfer to Tilburg Prison. Two years later, it has to be said that almost 20% of the prisoners - Belgian or foreign - in Tilburg are French speakers. Consequently, a not inconsiderable proportion of the prison's inmates find it difficult to communicate on a day-to-day basis with the Dutch staff, most of whom speak little or no French. The delegation also noted that the instructions on what to do in the event of fire breaking out, displayed in the cells, appear in Dutch, Arabic, Turkish and English, but not in French. Such communication difficulties are not without significant consequences during official administrative procedures, particularly of a disciplinary (see paragraph 36) or medical nature. The delegation took note of the efforts made by the Dutch prison staff to improve their knowledge of French. However, the CPT invites the authorities to limit as far as possible the transfer of French-speaking prisoners to Tilburg Prison. " highlights that the French speakers are out of luck although reasonable efforts are done for them.
vivekd 10y ago
I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to change on their own part (which very few of them ever show) they will just continue to commit crimes and hurt society. Yes many of them are addicts. However, addiction is not one of those things that someone just tries a drug and gets hooked and turns to crime. There are underlying mental issues that create an addict and those same issues tend to make them very bad people.
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  What makes you think there is a correlation between being prone to addiction and being a genuinely bad person?
  - vivekd 10y ago
    Well, there are a lot of people who try drugs, even very hard drugs, and can go on without getting hooked. But addicts tend to get hooked because of a desire to escape themselves. I can't put my finger on it exactly, or point to a scientific study unfortunately, but addicts that I have met have been very self-centered and unpleasant people.
    - js2 10y ago
      Beware confirmation-bias?
    - RankingMember 10y ago
      Is there really such a thing as a "bad person"? Sure, there are people whose proclivities, inborn or otherwise, make them unsuitable to be freely among the public, but I can't think of anyone who I couldn't imagine following a different, "positive" path.
- fijal 10y ago

by awjr 10y ago

spiderfarmer 10y ago

It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates. A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working. The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Police_officers,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Prison_population,_average_per_year,_2007%E2%80%9309_and_2010%E2%80%9312_(per_100_000_inhabitants)_YB14.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

allendoerfer 10y ago
> The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.... Whose police and security forces are also underfunded. Apart from the usual "hey, new idea: let's increase pensions!" you need to do to win in an ageing country, this is the big topic in the upcoming election.
- heisenbit 10y ago
  The security forces are always underfunded. The crime level however is not so much increasing as it is always painted by interested lobbyists. For anyone looking for a deep dive: https://www.bka.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/Expertensuche_Formular.html https://www.bka.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/Expertensuche_For... (Wikipedia link is broken). Of course stats fluctuate and one always can find things that increase and that is reported. Context is usually left out. In 2015 it was increase of cars reported stolen (about half are recovered later). Here are the numbers: 2015: 35.941 (19.391) 2014: 34.653 (18.549) 2013: 35.696 (19.395) 2012: 34.176 (18.554) 2011: 35.564 (19.318) Yes, there were more cars reported as stolen in 2015 than in 2013. But looking beyond the headlines there were even more recovered. Either funding of police increased, police became more effective or thieves more stupid. Clearly there are areas where crime is on the rise. But then there are also areas where crime is falling. It is always easier to grow than making these adjustments. But in a not so fast growing society not all of these shifts are avoidable.
pmyjavec 10y ago
Also, the Dutch are very lenient on drug (recreational) users and the sale of drugs.
- awjr 10y ago
  I see that as a good thing.
  - pmyjavec 10y ago
    Oh absolutely, I think that's why jails are empty.

johnchristopher 10y ago

I take it you are from the Netherlands or living there. I have been in Belgium for some years now. What's your position on Belgium outsourcing and renting cells in the Netherlands ?

allendoerfer 10y ago
Not parent, but also from a neighbouring country. I think as long as the landlord is not from the private sector, and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff, I see no reason why not to share all kinds of resources this way within the EU. Belgium does this for Luxembourg all the time, Germany and France mostly do it symbolically (joined military forces etc.). Would like to see more of this, especially when there are monetary benefits for both sides.
- gcp 10y ago
  and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff In the case of Belgium and The Netherlands, there probably is. A sizable minority of Belgians speak French, not Dutch, and due to poorer economic prospects they might also make up more than half the prison population. But I assume that for people arrested for crimes in the Dutch speaking part, being jailed by someone you can't understand is Your Own Damn Fault. I mean, if they arrest Eastern Europeans then what are they going to do? Get prison wards to learn a bunch of Slav/Russian dialects? Edit: Checking the facts, over 60% of the prison population is not actually Belgian, and this EC report: http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/bel/2012-19-inf-eng.htm http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/bel/2012-19-inf-eng.htm "34. At the time of the 2009 periodic visit, the Belgian authorities had stated that, in principle, French-speaking prisoners were not considered for transfer to Tilburg Prison. Two years later, it has to be said that almost 20% of the prisoners - Belgian or foreign - in Tilburg are French speakers. Consequently, a not inconsiderable proportion of the prison's inmates find it difficult to communicate on a day-to-day basis with the Dutch staff, most of whom speak little or no French. The delegation also noted that the instructions on what to do in the event of fire breaking out, displayed in the cells, appear in Dutch, Arabic, Turkish and English, but not in French. Such communication difficulties are not without significant consequences during official administrative procedures, particularly of a disciplinary (see paragraph 36) or medical nature. The delegation took note of the efforts made by the Dutch prison staff to improve their knowledge of French. However, the CPT invites the authorities to limit as far as possible the transfer of French-speaking prisoners to Tilburg Prison. " highlights that the French speakers are out of luck although reasonable efforts are done for them.

vivekd 10y ago

I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to change on their own part (which very few of them ever show) they will just continue to commit crimes and hurt society. Yes many of them are addicts. However, addiction is not one of those things that someone just tries a drug and gets hooked and turns to crime. There are underlying mental issues that create an addict and those same issues tend to make them very bad people.

Dylan16807 10y ago
What makes you think there is a correlation between being prone to addiction and being a genuinely bad person?
- vivekd 10y ago
  Well, there are a lot of people who try drugs, even very hard drugs, and can go on without getting hooked. But addicts tend to get hooked because of a desire to escape themselves. I can't put my finger on it exactly, or point to a scientific study unfortunately, but addicts that I have met have been very self-centered and unpleasant people.
  - js2 10y ago
    Beware confirmation-bias?
  - RankingMember 10y ago
    Is there really such a thing as a "bad person"? Sure, there are people whose proclivities, inborn or otherwise, make them unsuitable to be freely among the public, but I can't think of anyone who I couldn't imagine following a different, "positive" path.
fijal 10y ago