8 ms·

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The c

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

msvalkon 10y ago
In Finland, "for life" means 12 years.
CRidge 10y ago
This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.
- martijn_himself 10y ago
  Agreed! That will probably generate a lot of debate when Breivik comes up for release.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself. And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much better outcomes for both the people imprisoned and the community around them.
    - martijn_himself 10y ago
      The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most. I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.
      - bahjoite 10y ago
        > The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most Why do the families of victims matter the most? Does not every person matter equally?
        lisivka 10y ago
        Did you hear about vendeta?
      - continuational 10y ago
        I'm sure the families of the victims would vastly prefer not to be in this situation in the first place, over getting some petty revenge. That's why the priority must be to bring down the overall number of vitims.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..
  - gpvos 10y ago
    In the Netherlands, 20 years (with early release after 13-14 years) used to be the maximum sentence, apart from life sentence, which actually used to be really for life. Parole is possible, but seldom used; release for good behaviour (after a certain minimum number of years) was not possible at all. The European Court for Human Rights actually recently forced us to implement an early release possibility. I think a few years ago we also got a 30 year option (with early release after 20), because judges weren't willing to impose a life sentence due to the aforementioned reason. Also, 14/21 years is about 20-25% of one's life. I think that's quite a lot, really.
  - ordinary 10y ago
    Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them? Prisons cost money.
    - kriro 10y ago
      I feel like murder (or most major crimes really) is a very special case. I'd prefer a system where the default is a life sentence (a lifetime for a life feels just) but the option to release after n years if relatives/family of the victim agree to it. It's probably very impractical but would appeal most to my personal understanding of justice.
      - CaptSpify 10y ago
Cthulhu_ 10y ago
The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.
- mrmrcoleman 10y ago
  Amen!
- usethis 10y ago
  The yearly cost of a US prisoner is $47,000 [1]. I am sure this is a whole lot more than society is willing to invest in the person outside of prison. http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost
  - wu-ikkyu 10y ago
    Anyone can get a basic income for life in the US, you just have to take someone else's life first.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    Is that the cost or the price? Security + healthcare amount to two-thirds - seems like that's the bit where you'd hide the profit for private enterprises? What sort of bank do prison owning CEOs make?
- Aaargh20318 10y ago
  > In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some petty criminal who stole some iPhones from a locker room and got caught. It was the 163rd time he got arrested. How do you deal with someone like that in a civilised manner ?
dep_b 10y ago
In Germany they solve a lot more cases without using more police force. I don't care about short sentences or helping prisoners after they went to prison, that's probably a good thing. But they need to be arrested and convicted first if they do something, not get away with it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

msvalkon 10y ago

In Finland, "for life" means 12 years.

CRidge 10y ago

This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.

martijn_himself 10y ago
Agreed! That will probably generate a lot of debate when Breivik comes up for release.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself. And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much better outcomes for both the people imprisoned and the community around them.
  - martijn_himself 10y ago
    The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most. I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.
    - bahjoite 10y ago
      > The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most Why do the families of victims matter the most? Does not every person matter equally?
      - lisivka 10y ago
        Did you hear about vendeta?
    - continuational 10y ago
      I'm sure the families of the victims would vastly prefer not to be in this situation in the first place, over getting some petty revenge. That's why the priority must be to bring down the overall number of vitims.
charlesdm 10y ago
Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..
- gpvos 10y ago
  In the Netherlands, 20 years (with early release after 13-14 years) used to be the maximum sentence, apart from life sentence, which actually used to be really for life. Parole is possible, but seldom used; release for good behaviour (after a certain minimum number of years) was not possible at all. The European Court for Human Rights actually recently forced us to implement an early release possibility. I think a few years ago we also got a 30 year option (with early release after 20), because judges weren't willing to impose a life sentence due to the aforementioned reason. Also, 14/21 years is about 20-25% of one's life. I think that's quite a lot, really.
- ordinary 10y ago
  Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them? Prisons cost money.
  - kriro 10y ago
    I feel like murder (or most major crimes really) is a very special case. I'd prefer a system where the default is a life sentence (a lifetime for a life feels just) but the option to release after n years if relatives/family of the victim agree to it. It's probably very impractical but would appeal most to my personal understanding of justice.
    - CaptSpify 10y ago

Cthulhu_ 10y ago

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

mrmrcoleman 10y ago
Amen!
usethis 10y ago
The yearly cost of a US prisoner is $47,000 [1]. I am sure this is a whole lot more than society is willing to invest in the person outside of prison. http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost
- wu-ikkyu 10y ago
  Anyone can get a basic income for life in the US, you just have to take someone else's life first.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  Is that the cost or the price? Security + healthcare amount to two-thirds - seems like that's the bit where you'd hide the profit for private enterprises? What sort of bank do prison owning CEOs make?
Aaargh20318 10y ago
> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some petty criminal who stole some iPhones from a locker room and got caught. It was the 163rd time he got arrested. How do you deal with someone like that in a civilised manner ?

dep_b 10y ago

In Germany they solve a lot more cases without using more police force. I don't care about short sentences or helping prisoners after they went to prison, that's probably a good thing. But they need to be arrested and convicted first if they do something, not get away with it.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]