14 ms·

How Japan Prepares Its Children for Independence

196 points by nkurz 10y ago

vijucat 10y ago
On the other hand, there's this claim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence "The person who is carrying out amae may beg or plead, or alternatively act selfishly while secure in the knowledge that the caregiver will indulge him. The behavior of children towards their parents is perhaps the most common example of amae, but Doi argued that child-rearing practices in the Western world seek to stop this kind of dependence, whereas in Japan it persists into adulthood in all kinds of social relationships." Interesting discussion on amae ("English equivalent of “amae” (甘え) - the feeling of pleasurable dependence on another person") in the Q & A here: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/236808/english-equivalent-of-amae-%E7%94%98%E3%81%88-the-feeling-of-pleasurable-dependence-on-ano http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/236808/english-eq...
- triplesec 10y ago
  And here we find a concept related to traditional gender models with the 'strong' man and dependent woman, sub-dom relationships and other such constructs. Helps us see why many people still hold onto tradition.
- hasenj 10y ago
  Arabic has a couple words that are close دلع دلال Which if you look up in the dictionary, they come up as "fondness" or "petting". I think amae is the kind of the "converse" of petting. When you pet someone, what do they feel? They feel "amae".
ekianjo 10y ago
In terms of outcome, pretty badly judging by the lack of initiative of all new hires in japanese companies.
- brandelune 10y ago
  The problem is not that they lack initiative, it is that initiative is not expected from them.
  - mattnumbe 10y ago
    I also think the initiative is there, it's just the mundane tasks that most are required to do.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    I have seen numerous cases where they would have no clue when to even start when giving the initiative. A pretty good sign of the level of japanese colleges and universities.
aidenn0 10y ago
Whereas my kids' school is 4 miles away with no bus service offered.
joesmo 10y ago
I find it ironic that in America, where child rearing is the epitome of life in mainstream culture, parents are so awful at it, especially at instilling independence and freedom, something we claim to value more than anything. This article is only interesting in comparison with our failed parenting. In comparison to many other cultures, it's pretty mundane and similar.
- kbart 10y ago
  Exactly, I'd say America is more exception than a rule in this regard. This article implies that 5-6 years old walking to school alone is something extraordinary. It's common in my country too, actually, most of the first graders that are dropped off by parents are those who live outside of town and there's no good public transit route.
- artpepper 10y ago
  > parents are so awful at it That's a really sweeping statement. In reference to this particular article, there may be a lot of reasons why fewer American children travel to school by themselves, including geography and transportation options.
  - joesmo 10y ago
    That's pretty irrelevant. I base my assessment of the horrific parenting in this country on our poor and still falling educational achievements and the censorship houses our universities have turned into. I understand that the law enforces such poor parenting practices by throwing parents in jail, placing children in foster care, etc., but that's still no excuse.
xenadu02 10y ago
This is a bit of overblown "look at the crazy foreigners!" Most people don't raise kids through the same ages in multiple countries so they have no idea what the real differences are. There is also more variation in the USA. Here in San Francisco you can go watch little kids doing this exact same thing every single day. Teachers walking the kids to Golden Gate Park, showing them how to wait for the WALK sign, look both ways for cars, etc with no parents around. It is also extremely common advice to make your kids cleanup after themselves to learn responsibility. At 18 months they naturally want to help, so you give them jobs to do and slowly ramp up the complexity. The only thing unique to Japan (that I got from the article anyway) is that really young kids walk to school by themselves. Part of this might be urban vs suburban/rural, I'm not sure. SF doesn't bus kids, and I definitely see middle-schoolers navigating muni on their own. Not sure how much younger that goes.
- mattnumbe 10y ago
  It may happen in San Francisco, but it doesn't happen where I'm from. The reason it's different is because the majority of Japan does this.
  - true_religion 10y ago
    All of Japan is smaller than California, with a population 3x as high. It's much easier to go from "do it one place" to do it everywhere in a country like that.
    - mattnumbe 10y ago
      My comment didn't have to do with population density or the size of the country, just that it's extremely common in Japan and doesn't happen much in America. Only that.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      You make it sound like it happens by osmosis.
greggman 10y ago
For young kids this is awesome but Japanese young adults are not nearly as independent as western kids. It is far from uncommon for 20 somethibugs to choose to live at home even into the their 30s. Where does the system fail from this great stuff as 3-6 year olds vs the 18-30 year olds?
- brandelune 10y ago
  It does not fail. It's the expected outcome. Young people don't get "legal" independence until they get married. By "legal" independence I mean they don't have a personal register (koseki) until they have to leave the family register, which can basically only happen by marrying. Besides, leaving at one's parents is not equal to be dependent, it is economically sound and young people who have entered the work force may live in the same place as their parents but few share much more than that.
  - mattnumbe 10y ago
    I type too slow...
- mattnumbe 10y ago
  Japanese 18-30 year olds are also in a lot less debt. It's part of the Japanese culture to live with your parents until marriage and it has nothing to do with independence. There are also plenty of young people who move into expensive tiny single bedroom apartments in Tokyo for work purposes. But who would want to do that when you can live in a private wing of your parents house for free? Most young people spend their social time outside of their houses anyway (house parties in the west vs karaoke parties in Japan). It just ends up being a place to eat and sleep.
  - toyg 10y ago
    Funny that: a classic Italian complaint from parents of 20somethings still living at home is "This house is not a hotel!" - i.e. a place where to eat and sleep.
known 10y ago
Japan is a homogeneous society; "Diversity society will fail" --Putnam; http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/ http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...
- brandelune 10y ago
  By a very narrow definition of "homogenous".
  - hasenj 10y ago
    Is there some definition whereby Japanese society is not ethnically homogenous?
- 77pt77 10y ago
  Diversity is like salt in food. You want a bit to make things tasty and healthy, but too much is actually bad for you.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Analogies can be well used, but here all you said is "I prefer to have just a bit of diversity" in a pseudo-explanatory way.
    - 77pt77 10y ago
      Nowhere in that comment did I ever state my preference.
      - raarts 10y ago
        No you didn't, but I find it hard to believe you would opt for a lot of diversity, given that you state it would be bad.
  - Fargren 10y ago
    To quote from A Bit of Fry & Laurie, 'well of course too much is bad for you, that's what "too much" means[...]. "Too much" precisely means that quantity which is excessive, that's what it means'. How much is too much?
Animats 10y ago
There's a TV show about this in Japan: "My First Errand". Hidden cameras follow kids as they go on their first errand alone. It's cute.
- mafribe 10y ago
  The show is called "Hajimete no Otsukai", see [1] for an example. Citylab had a text about it last year [2]. [1] http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkae7e_toshijima_webcam http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkae7e_toshijima_webcam [2] http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-kids-in-japan-so-independent/407590/?utm_source=atlfb http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-kids-i...
Pietertje 10y ago
The Dutch have a similar approach albeit at a bit older age. During my last visit to the US I was really astonished when my colleague told me he was driving his kids (12-15 years old) everywhere anytime and that this was common. One of the best moments of my childhood were those in which you could stroll around the city in full freedom. I still don't fully get the protective attitude of US parenting. I wonder if it has to do with crime stats being higher.
- artpepper 10y ago
  But in many American suburbs, car is the only feasible way to get somewhere. So unless the 12-year-olds are driving, it's got to be the parents.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Not bicycles? Children riding bikes round their neighbourhood is a common sight in American films/TV, the most obvious example is Bart and Lisa Simpson.
    - artpepper 10y ago
      I think it depends a lot where you live, and whether it's urban, suburban, or rural. My kid could definitely bike to school when she gets older. But to get to, say, her gymnastics class, it's 8 miles through heavy traffic with only occasional bike lanes. (In the dark in the rain, at this time of year.)
      - Scarblac 10y ago
        Kids in rural areas of the Netherlands do bike 8 miles to school, but to do that only for a gym class is probably too much.
        raarts 10y ago
        And the traffic situation is much more tailored towards bikes compared to most other countries.
heisenbit 10y ago
The article describes how Japanese children are socialized. They are taught to become independent off their parents at an early age. They learn to rely on they local social network. We in the west understand may independence differently. With our western eyes we seen transfer of dependence on family to social community not as we would expect more becoming an individual. There are few cultures like the Japanese that have such close social links to their peers at adult age. These differences seem to be cultured at an early age. Helicopter parenting is certainly damaging in the long run. The Japanese approach also has some long term implications. It is worth looking at other alternatives too. In the end we are responsible for our choices.
77pt77 10y ago
Children in Japan going about their lives with no adult supervision (usually in small groups) is one of cutest things I've seen. That this happens in places like Tokyo and Osaka is even more impressive given the size of those cities. A large part of that is made possible by community support. If something goes wrong there's usually an adult nearby ready to help.
- sjm 10y ago
  Totally agree. Japan is also incredibly safe. I've just spent a couple months there (now in Seoul), and you get the sense that people really trust each other there. It's not uncommon to see people leave their bags, phones, wallets, etc. just lying around in a cafe; bikes unlocked everywhere. It's a really calm place to be in that sense. I've been doing the "digital nomad" thing and jumping around a lot of countries — Japan was very different in this aspect to pretty much everywhere else I've been.
  - shostack 10y ago
    When I was traveling in Japan, even in some of the sketchier areas my only worry was that I might get yelled at or maybe at worst get in a fight if I started something. Not once did I fear for my or my wife's safety even late at night. There is something magical about living somewhere like that which I can only fantasize about as someone who grew up in Chicago taking the 36 to school and having to avoid crazy people and always looking over my shoulder. And that was in a nice part of East Lakeview.
    - 77pt77 10y ago
      Yeah, to get in trouble in Japan you have to either be actively looking for it or be an idiot.
  - radicsge 10y ago
    I had left my Nikon camera in a shop, when I've realized and ran back, a shop associate was trying to knot it to a chair she just put outside of the shop (so it can be seen). It was amazing! --- Other story I had in Japan. That I lost direction in Kyoto and had no money since all ATM is closed (at night).At some point somebody just stopped his bike and asked where i go. When I told him, he said that I should wait a bit, he will pick up his car and bring me there (in the middle of the night!) .. and so he did. No place like japan (or at least very few)!
hasenj 10y ago
When I was a kid in Iraq (1990~) going to school by yourself was very natural. Our school was nearby so we walked every day. Other kids took the bus. The only thing amusing in the article is how Americans are amused by this. I remember on my first day to school my mom took me there, but she didn't come to take me home. I was one of the few kids that cried because my mom wasn't there. Later, I felt embarrassed by that. Our school organized some kind of a school trip about once or twice a year. I was the odd kid whose parents would not let him go on the trip. For everyone else, it was a natural part of school that they looked forward to. Needless to say, the parents do no join the kids for the trip.
- bambax 10y ago
  I'm not American (thank God!) but I can understand that in the US you need a car if the school is several miles away and there's no serious public transport option...
  - toyg 10y ago
    It's not just that. In Italy, when I was a kid (mid-80s), it was normal for 8-year-olds around the "paese" (which in my case was a city borough) to just walk to school. We would meet up on the way, and it was pretty fun. Same for going back, although we were expected to have someone at home. Now people freak out if a child is without adult supervision for 5 minutes, because of pedo-paranoia; nevermind that abuse cases are overwhelmingly done by relatives or close friends, which means the more you ask for an adult to be with kids, the more you're actually putting them at risk. Thanks, fearmongering mass-media and hollywood.
    - Joof 10y ago
      US here. We also walked / biked to school. I lived in suburbs though and can't speak for everyone.
    - 77pt77 10y ago
      > Now people freak out if a child is without adult supervision for 5 minutes, because of pedo-paranoia pedo-paranoia was also a think while I was growing up. I totally remember the talk regarding not accepting rides from people nor candy. My parents deny that they ever said such things because those were "idyllic times", but they sure did.
artpepper 10y ago
My daughter's preschool [American] went on several field trips, it's not that weird. And her first "solo day of class" was sooner than a month in. I walked to school by myself in NYC. Now I live in the suburbs, and I see plenty of kids walking themselves to school in my neighborhood. But a lot of it depends on how far away you live and the route. Basically, I don't worry about my daughter's ability to find her way to school, I worry about her getting run down by some idiot in an SUV.
- raarts 10y ago
  You mean some other kid that learned to drive before learning to drink.
shirro 10y ago
So how do they prepare them to be hikikomori?
- 77pt77 10y ago
  You are a bit too caustic and the downvotes are probably due to that but the question stands. What the hell happens between age 5 and say 20 that justifies that social problem?
  - namaemuta 10y ago
    I'm not a Japanese but I would say that the social expectations are too high: at X age you should be working for a company, at Y you should be married, at Z age you should own a house... some people can't handle that pressure, specially if something has gone wrong. There's a webcomic called Re:Life in which this is shown.
Artoemius 10y ago
I don't know. The Japanese are usually known for their dependence on the society and social norms. In the corporate world, they find it normal to work overtime without pay, never take vacations longer than several days at a time, and they seem to find it hard to disagree with their bosses. That's not what I would call a culture of independence.
unabst 10y ago
Independence as in independent physically from their parents who may be far away, but not as in independent psychologically to make responsible, self-governing decisions based on their own free will. The former is not that surprising considering how safe Japan is. The latter however is a known social issue. Oyabanare (leaving the parents) is the term for independence, and many have a hard time. Physical independence is a step every toddler takes when they learn to cope with not having their parents around during day care and such, and in Japan it simply extends to the commute. Traditionally, the Japanese would not even lock their doors. The entire community is an extension of their living space, with lines drawn with respect, not fences or locked doors. So just as you wouldn't call a child independent for being able to go to the bedroom and back, going to school and back is the same but farther, with the community acting as a safety net to ensure these children commute safely. Kobans also help (community police manning one man police stations that patrol on bicycles). Psychological independence unfortunately does not extend naturally from the above. With many young adults being too dependent on their parents and on instruction, they suffer from the inability to think or act or speak for themselves. They can commute fine alone. They can be hikikomori fine alone. They are fine alone. They just are not independent in the western sense. They are afraid to act on behalf of themselves or enact their identity. So they also resort to 2chan and anonymous free speech which does not help them gain a voice. Westerners are almost too comfortable acting on behalf of themselves. It is almost a given. And that is also why parents are less inclined to "let them loose" because "loose" is what they are. They are free thinking and free acting, hence a long solitary commute only sounds dangerous. But it is this perception that instills that very quality in their children. The perception of being on an infinite leash yields physical freedom and distance, but to confuse this with psychological independence is an egregious mistake.
- 77pt77 10y ago
  > Westerners are almost too comfortable acting on behalf of themselves. It is almost a given. And that is also why parents are less inclined to "let them loose" because "loose" is what they are. They are free thinking and free acting A bit of a fiction. All you have to do is have a look the tribalism in campus culture to falsify this. In fact, the current campus hysteria is in part motivated by a lack of independence, self-reliance and accountability for one's actions.
dnautics 10y ago
I used to spend summers in Japan to get an extra two months of schooling as American schools were out... Walking to school at age six was a daily activity. Summers in Okinawa regularly reach 30C or higher; and the particular town I was in was mostly agricultural gravel roads between home and school. The process wasn't completed alone; I typically grouped together with four or five cousins that lived nearby and we all walked the ~2km together.
nicolas_t 10y ago
I've always found Japanese kindergarten elementary school education to be quite good. They encourage children to be independent, they have children clean the school to teach responsibility (most schools do not have janitors on staff), they often have student councils where the students determine some of the rules and how they are enforced. However, the education after that is too focused on rote memory, multiple choice tests and not enough on critical thinking. This, I believe, is what creates a lot of problems today with Japanese young adults. If I had a kid, I'd send her to a Japanese school until around 8-9 years old and then switch to an international school.
LeonidBugaev 10y ago
While it is impressive, do not forget that everything that happens in childhood, projects to your adult life, and not always in a good way. Japan have so many problems right now: a lot of people with sociopathy, problems with demographics and so on. While Japan has a unique approach, who knows, maybe lack of supervising and attention at such young age cause such issues. In my view, Japan is the edge case, and there should be the more balanced approach.
- 77pt77 10y ago
  > a lot of people with sociopathy really? Depressed, withdrawn, neurotic maybe, but sociopathic?!
  - hx87 10y ago
    OP is probably using the term (very, very wrongly) as a catch-all for psychological problems.
edblarney 10y ago
It's difficult to separate this issue from the vastly civilized cultural context of Japan. Kids can take the bus because there is a near zero chance that someone will do something bad to them. If they are lost, they are surrounded by people who will help them. North American urban areas are not quite like this ... Also, the simply geographic issues of housing/roads and large distances between things is a pretty big factor. No guns, homogenous society, extremely well behaved people ... American leftists and rightists would each find something to 'freak out' about were America to try to recreate the kind of civility they have there ...
jernfrost 10y ago
This isn't so much the Japanese being weird and different as the American's being the odd ones. I am Norwegian, and little of these descriptions would seem odd to me. My kids go on trips every week with their pre-school, and I have never keep track of where. My oldest son has walked to school himself since he has been 6 years old. I walked to school when I was a kid from 7 (we started school later). And I had to walk about 30 minutes to get to school crossing many roads. From early childhood I roamed around all my neighborhood walking into forests or as I got a bit older I'd go with friends to big abandoned ship yards. When I later emailed a distant American relative of similar age, I was confused when she didn't understand why I didn't have a drivers license. She was like "doesn't your parent's get tired of driving you everywhere?". A question that made no sense to me until I visited the US. I was of course going everywhere and I didn't need parents or a car to do that. I could take the train, bus or subway myself or bike. In America however it is simply sad how dependent children are on their parents. Parents take them to every sort of activity and thing they got to do. In so many American cities you can't have a life without a car. There is nothing to do without a car.
- HemanHeartYou 10y ago
  It's all fun and games until someone gets kidnapped. There's also the situation where a lot of American towns/cities aren't so crowded that you can walk everywhere. And not everywhere in America is there good public transportation.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    > It's all fun and games until someone gets kidnapped. But statistically, how often does that happen? Is it enough to be seriously worried about? > There's also the situation where a lot of American towns/cities aren't so crowded that you can walk everywhere. And not everywhere in America is there good public transportation. I don't think it's an issue of being crowded. I think it's an issue of how we design our cities. We assume everyone will have a car, so those that don't have a car (kids) have less independence. A lot of Europe was built before cars existed, so they don't assume that everyone will have their own car.
pelasaco 10y ago
"Trusting the Community".. try it in USA :P
mamcx 10y ago
I start doing some grocery buys as 7/8 years old and go to school alone at the same age. In medellin. In the 90s. Towards schools with some gang members. Where some shootings happened (outside!). And get mugged a few times. After bombings 7 blocks away home. And get to the school alone next day. Equal as elsewhere. Now here are copying some of the unfortunate aspects of the US culture and some of my younger cousins have not idea how navigate the city alone. Despite to be very shy and introvert, I'm certain I can get lost anywhere and find my way back home! --- By the way, bullying was very uncommon, despite being the most nerd there. Now is epidemic. When kid looking at US movies I wonder when we will start to copy it.
readhn 10y ago
When I was little my mom would give me a few coins and send me to the store with a milk jug to get some milk and bread. A couple of times Every week. They would also give me a garbage bag to take out on my way there( dumpster was a few blocks away). I was not that small, may be 9 or 10. This was not in USA. Today I live 10000 miles from home on another continent speaking another language... Are these connected? Who knows. Was it dangerous? Who knows. My kids for sure will not be helicoptered over...
randomgyatwork 10y ago
In Japan I noticed that the public washrooms were always so clean, magnitudes cleaner than anything in Canada. My wife told me at school that all the students take turns cleaning the bathroom, this meant if you made a mass you'd eventually have to clean it up. The idea seems to be that by keeping it clean you avoid having to clean up someone else's mess later, seems to encourage doing the right thing.
fhood 10y ago
I want to make two points. First: People on this website tend not to have grown up poor, but let me assure you that that demographic of Americans has no problem with independence. My friend has had a job since he was twelve, and until he moved out (at 18) he had to pay his share of the household bills. And he has bad credit because when they needed money his mom borrowed money in his name. Second: Im a college student, so I see a lot of people floundering with new found independence. First people who grew up poorer can, in general, cook, clean and shop properly. Of those that grew up in wealthier families, the "only" children are the ones that tend to struggle at first. In the end though, most of them figure it out. Large universities are pretty good at fostering independence. Primarily because they don't really care about their students. Either you figure it out or flunk out. I know that anecdotes of peoples parents coming with them to interviews are common, but I don't know a single person who has had this particular indignity inflicted on them. In general I think that adults in the United States are fairly good at being independent from their parents and American Universities have helped with this. I also know that Asian, and Japanese universities have a reputation for coddling their students, to the point that American professors are wary of taking them on as grad students (not to say that some of them aren't fantastic students because they are). I also know that Japanese parents are far more likely to support their children financially into their adulthoods than American parents are. So while I agree with many of the sentiments here I want to point out that Americans do force their children to be independent. They just wait until they are 18-25.
joggery 10y ago
What will the effect of self-driving cars be on children's independence?
ericmo 10y ago
I'm a Sansei in Brazil, which essentially means most people think I'm Japanese while the Japanese think I'm not, so I've peeked both sides and I can tell you this: yes, childhood in Japan can be amazing, but certainly Japanese culture in general isn't about independence, it's actually quite the opposite, it's about order and individuals adhering to his/her role in this order. "Do as your parents said, get into college, respect your boss." It's even kind of bittersweet that childhood in Japan is so good, because you'll grow up knowing what you've lost. On the other hand, it's also not all smell of flowers, because children being independent also means that if mom isn't home, you have to be the responsible sibling, it could be a form to shorten childhood.

196 points by nkurz 10y ago

On the other hand, there's this claim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence "The person who is carrying out amae may beg or plead, or alternatively act selfishly while secure in the knowledge that the caregiver will indulge him. The behavior of children towards their parents is perhaps the most common example of amae, but Doi argued that child-rearing practices in the Western world seek to stop this kind of dependence, whereas in Japan it persists into adulthood in all kinds of social relationships." Interesting discussion on amae ("English equivalent of “amae” (甘え) - the feeling of pleasurable dependence on another person") in the Q & A here: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/236808/english-equivalent-of-amae-%E7%94%98%E3%81%88-the-feeling-of-pleasurable-dependence-on-ano http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/236808/english-eq...

triplesec 10y ago
And here we find a concept related to traditional gender models with the 'strong' man and dependent woman, sub-dom relationships and other such constructs. Helps us see why many people still hold onto tradition.
hasenj 10y ago
Arabic has a couple words that are close دلع دلال Which if you look up in the dictionary, they come up as "fondness" or "petting". I think amae is the kind of the "converse" of petting. When you pet someone, what do they feel? They feel "amae".

ekianjo 10y ago

In terms of outcome, pretty badly judging by the lack of initiative of all new hires in japanese companies.

brandelune 10y ago
The problem is not that they lack initiative, it is that initiative is not expected from them.
- mattnumbe 10y ago
  I also think the initiative is there, it's just the mundane tasks that most are required to do.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  I have seen numerous cases where they would have no clue when to even start when giving the initiative. A pretty good sign of the level of japanese colleges and universities.

aidenn0 10y ago

Whereas my kids' school is 4 miles away with no bus service offered.

joesmo 10y ago

I find it ironic that in America, where child rearing is the epitome of life in mainstream culture, parents are so awful at it, especially at instilling independence and freedom, something we claim to value more than anything. This article is only interesting in comparison with our failed parenting. In comparison to many other cultures, it's pretty mundane and similar.

kbart 10y ago
Exactly, I'd say America is more exception than a rule in this regard. This article implies that 5-6 years old walking to school alone is something extraordinary. It's common in my country too, actually, most of the first graders that are dropped off by parents are those who live outside of town and there's no good public transit route.
artpepper 10y ago
> parents are so awful at it That's a really sweeping statement. In reference to this particular article, there may be a lot of reasons why fewer American children travel to school by themselves, including geography and transportation options.
- joesmo 10y ago
  That's pretty irrelevant. I base my assessment of the horrific parenting in this country on our poor and still falling educational achievements and the censorship houses our universities have turned into. I understand that the law enforces such poor parenting practices by throwing parents in jail, placing children in foster care, etc., but that's still no excuse.

xenadu02 10y ago

This is a bit of overblown "look at the crazy foreigners!" Most people don't raise kids through the same ages in multiple countries so they have no idea what the real differences are. There is also more variation in the USA. Here in San Francisco you can go watch little kids doing this exact same thing every single day. Teachers walking the kids to Golden Gate Park, showing them how to wait for the WALK sign, look both ways for cars, etc with no parents around. It is also extremely common advice to make your kids cleanup after themselves to learn responsibility. At 18 months they naturally want to help, so you give them jobs to do and slowly ramp up the complexity. The only thing unique to Japan (that I got from the article anyway) is that really young kids walk to school by themselves. Part of this might be urban vs suburban/rural, I'm not sure. SF doesn't bus kids, and I definitely see middle-schoolers navigating muni on their own. Not sure how much younger that goes.

mattnumbe 10y ago
It may happen in San Francisco, but it doesn't happen where I'm from. The reason it's different is because the majority of Japan does this.
- true_religion 10y ago
  All of Japan is smaller than California, with a population 3x as high. It's much easier to go from "do it one place" to do it everywhere in a country like that.
  - mattnumbe 10y ago
    My comment didn't have to do with population density or the size of the country, just that it's extremely common in Japan and doesn't happen much in America. Only that.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    You make it sound like it happens by osmosis.

greggman 10y ago

For young kids this is awesome but Japanese young adults are not nearly as independent as western kids. It is far from uncommon for 20 somethibugs to choose to live at home even into the their 30s. Where does the system fail from this great stuff as 3-6 year olds vs the 18-30 year olds?

brandelune 10y ago
It does not fail. It's the expected outcome. Young people don't get "legal" independence until they get married. By "legal" independence I mean they don't have a personal register (koseki) until they have to leave the family register, which can basically only happen by marrying. Besides, leaving at one's parents is not equal to be dependent, it is economically sound and young people who have entered the work force may live in the same place as their parents but few share much more than that.
- mattnumbe 10y ago
  I type too slow...
mattnumbe 10y ago
Japanese 18-30 year olds are also in a lot less debt. It's part of the Japanese culture to live with your parents until marriage and it has nothing to do with independence. There are also plenty of young people who move into expensive tiny single bedroom apartments in Tokyo for work purposes. But who would want to do that when you can live in a private wing of your parents house for free? Most young people spend their social time outside of their houses anyway (house parties in the west vs karaoke parties in Japan). It just ends up being a place to eat and sleep.
- toyg 10y ago
  Funny that: a classic Italian complaint from parents of 20somethings still living at home is "This house is not a hotel!" - i.e. a place where to eat and sleep.

known 10y ago

Japan is a homogeneous society; "Diversity society will fail" --Putnam; http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/ http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...

brandelune 10y ago
By a very narrow definition of "homogenous".
- hasenj 10y ago
  Is there some definition whereby Japanese society is not ethnically homogenous?
77pt77 10y ago
Diversity is like salt in food. You want a bit to make things tasty and healthy, but too much is actually bad for you.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Analogies can be well used, but here all you said is "I prefer to have just a bit of diversity" in a pseudo-explanatory way.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    Nowhere in that comment did I ever state my preference.
    - raarts 10y ago
      No you didn't, but I find it hard to believe you would opt for a lot of diversity, given that you state it would be bad.
- Fargren 10y ago
  To quote from A Bit of Fry & Laurie, 'well of course too much is bad for you, that's what "too much" means[...]. "Too much" precisely means that quantity which is excessive, that's what it means'. How much is too much?

Animats 10y ago

There's a TV show about this in Japan: "My First Errand". Hidden cameras follow kids as they go on their first errand alone. It's cute.

mafribe 10y ago
The show is called "Hajimete no Otsukai", see [1] for an example. Citylab had a text about it last year [2]. [1] http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkae7e_toshijima_webcam http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkae7e_toshijima_webcam [2] http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-kids-in-japan-so-independent/407590/?utm_source=atlfb http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/09/why-are-little-kids-i...

Pietertje 10y ago

The Dutch have a similar approach albeit at a bit older age. During my last visit to the US I was really astonished when my colleague told me he was driving his kids (12-15 years old) everywhere anytime and that this was common. One of the best moments of my childhood were those in which you could stroll around the city in full freedom. I still don't fully get the protective attitude of US parenting. I wonder if it has to do with crime stats being higher.

artpepper 10y ago
But in many American suburbs, car is the only feasible way to get somewhere. So unless the 12-year-olds are driving, it's got to be the parents.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  Not bicycles? Children riding bikes round their neighbourhood is a common sight in American films/TV, the most obvious example is Bart and Lisa Simpson.
  - artpepper 10y ago
    I think it depends a lot where you live, and whether it's urban, suburban, or rural. My kid could definitely bike to school when she gets older. But to get to, say, her gymnastics class, it's 8 miles through heavy traffic with only occasional bike lanes. (In the dark in the rain, at this time of year.)
    - Scarblac 10y ago
      Kids in rural areas of the Netherlands do bike 8 miles to school, but to do that only for a gym class is probably too much.
      - raarts 10y ago
        And the traffic situation is much more tailored towards bikes compared to most other countries.

heisenbit 10y ago

The article describes how Japanese children are socialized. They are taught to become independent off their parents at an early age. They learn to rely on they local social network. We in the west understand may independence differently. With our western eyes we seen transfer of dependence on family to social community not as we would expect more becoming an individual. There are few cultures like the Japanese that have such close social links to their peers at adult age. These differences seem to be cultured at an early age. Helicopter parenting is certainly damaging in the long run. The Japanese approach also has some long term implications. It is worth looking at other alternatives too. In the end we are responsible for our choices.

77pt77 10y ago

Children in Japan going about their lives with no adult supervision (usually in small groups) is one of cutest things I've seen. That this happens in places like Tokyo and Osaka is even more impressive given the size of those cities. A large part of that is made possible by community support. If something goes wrong there's usually an adult nearby ready to help.

sjm 10y ago
Totally agree. Japan is also incredibly safe. I've just spent a couple months there (now in Seoul), and you get the sense that people really trust each other there. It's not uncommon to see people leave their bags, phones, wallets, etc. just lying around in a cafe; bikes unlocked everywhere. It's a really calm place to be in that sense. I've been doing the "digital nomad" thing and jumping around a lot of countries — Japan was very different in this aspect to pretty much everywhere else I've been.
- shostack 10y ago
  When I was traveling in Japan, even in some of the sketchier areas my only worry was that I might get yelled at or maybe at worst get in a fight if I started something. Not once did I fear for my or my wife's safety even late at night. There is something magical about living somewhere like that which I can only fantasize about as someone who grew up in Chicago taking the 36 to school and having to avoid crazy people and always looking over my shoulder. And that was in a nice part of East Lakeview.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    Yeah, to get in trouble in Japan you have to either be actively looking for it or be an idiot.
- radicsge 10y ago
  I had left my Nikon camera in a shop, when I've realized and ran back, a shop associate was trying to knot it to a chair she just put outside of the shop (so it can be seen). It was amazing! --- Other story I had in Japan. That I lost direction in Kyoto and had no money since all ATM is closed (at night).At some point somebody just stopped his bike and asked where i go. When I told him, he said that I should wait a bit, he will pick up his car and bring me there (in the middle of the night!) .. and so he did. No place like japan (or at least very few)!

hasenj 10y ago

When I was a kid in Iraq (1990~) going to school by yourself was very natural. Our school was nearby so we walked every day. Other kids took the bus. The only thing amusing in the article is how Americans are amused by this. I remember on my first day to school my mom took me there, but she didn't come to take me home. I was one of the few kids that cried because my mom wasn't there. Later, I felt embarrassed by that. Our school organized some kind of a school trip about once or twice a year. I was the odd kid whose parents would not let him go on the trip. For everyone else, it was a natural part of school that they looked forward to. Needless to say, the parents do no join the kids for the trip.

bambax 10y ago
I'm not American (thank God!) but I can understand that in the US you need a car if the school is several miles away and there's no serious public transport option...
- toyg 10y ago
  It's not just that. In Italy, when I was a kid (mid-80s), it was normal for 8-year-olds around the "paese" (which in my case was a city borough) to just walk to school. We would meet up on the way, and it was pretty fun. Same for going back, although we were expected to have someone at home. Now people freak out if a child is without adult supervision for 5 minutes, because of pedo-paranoia; nevermind that abuse cases are overwhelmingly done by relatives or close friends, which means the more you ask for an adult to be with kids, the more you're actually putting them at risk. Thanks, fearmongering mass-media and hollywood.
  - Joof 10y ago
    US here. We also walked / biked to school. I lived in suburbs though and can't speak for everyone.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    > Now people freak out if a child is without adult supervision for 5 minutes, because of pedo-paranoia pedo-paranoia was also a think while I was growing up. I totally remember the talk regarding not accepting rides from people nor candy. My parents deny that they ever said such things because those were "idyllic times", but they sure did.

artpepper 10y ago

My daughter's preschool [American] went on several field trips, it's not that weird. And her first "solo day of class" was sooner than a month in. I walked to school by myself in NYC. Now I live in the suburbs, and I see plenty of kids walking themselves to school in my neighborhood. But a lot of it depends on how far away you live and the route. Basically, I don't worry about my daughter's ability to find her way to school, I worry about her getting run down by some idiot in an SUV.

raarts 10y ago
You mean some other kid that learned to drive before learning to drink.

shirro 10y ago

So how do they prepare them to be hikikomori?

77pt77 10y ago
You are a bit too caustic and the downvotes are probably due to that but the question stands. What the hell happens between age 5 and say 20 that justifies that social problem?
- namaemuta 10y ago
  I'm not a Japanese but I would say that the social expectations are too high: at X age you should be working for a company, at Y you should be married, at Z age you should own a house... some people can't handle that pressure, specially if something has gone wrong. There's a webcomic called Re:Life in which this is shown.

Artoemius 10y ago

I don't know. The Japanese are usually known for their dependence on the society and social norms. In the corporate world, they find it normal to work overtime without pay, never take vacations longer than several days at a time, and they seem to find it hard to disagree with their bosses. That's not what I would call a culture of independence.

unabst 10y ago

Independence as in independent physically from their parents who may be far away, but not as in independent psychologically to make responsible, self-governing decisions based on their own free will. The former is not that surprising considering how safe Japan is. The latter however is a known social issue. Oyabanare (leaving the parents) is the term for independence, and many have a hard time. Physical independence is a step every toddler takes when they learn to cope with not having their parents around during day care and such, and in Japan it simply extends to the commute. Traditionally, the Japanese would not even lock their doors. The entire community is an extension of their living space, with lines drawn with respect, not fences or locked doors. So just as you wouldn't call a child independent for being able to go to the bedroom and back, going to school and back is the same but farther, with the community acting as a safety net to ensure these children commute safely. Kobans also help (community police manning one man police stations that patrol on bicycles). Psychological independence unfortunately does not extend naturally from the above. With many young adults being too dependent on their parents and on instruction, they suffer from the inability to think or act or speak for themselves. They can commute fine alone. They can be hikikomori fine alone. They are fine alone. They just are not independent in the western sense. They are afraid to act on behalf of themselves or enact their identity. So they also resort to 2chan and anonymous free speech which does not help them gain a voice. Westerners are almost too comfortable acting on behalf of themselves. It is almost a given. And that is also why parents are less inclined to "let them loose" because "loose" is what they are. They are free thinking and free acting, hence a long solitary commute only sounds dangerous. But it is this perception that instills that very quality in their children. The perception of being on an infinite leash yields physical freedom and distance, but to confuse this with psychological independence is an egregious mistake.

77pt77 10y ago
> Westerners are almost too comfortable acting on behalf of themselves. It is almost a given. And that is also why parents are less inclined to "let them loose" because "loose" is what they are. They are free thinking and free acting A bit of a fiction. All you have to do is have a look the tribalism in campus culture to falsify this. In fact, the current campus hysteria is in part motivated by a lack of independence, self-reliance and accountability for one's actions.

dnautics 10y ago

I used to spend summers in Japan to get an extra two months of schooling as American schools were out... Walking to school at age six was a daily activity. Summers in Okinawa regularly reach 30C or higher; and the particular town I was in was mostly agricultural gravel roads between home and school. The process wasn't completed alone; I typically grouped together with four or five cousins that lived nearby and we all walked the ~2km together.

nicolas_t 10y ago

I've always found Japanese kindergarten elementary school education to be quite good. They encourage children to be independent, they have children clean the school to teach responsibility (most schools do not have janitors on staff), they often have student councils where the students determine some of the rules and how they are enforced. However, the education after that is too focused on rote memory, multiple choice tests and not enough on critical thinking. This, I believe, is what creates a lot of problems today with Japanese young adults. If I had a kid, I'd send her to a Japanese school until around 8-9 years old and then switch to an international school.

LeonidBugaev 10y ago

While it is impressive, do not forget that everything that happens in childhood, projects to your adult life, and not always in a good way. Japan have so many problems right now: a lot of people with sociopathy, problems with demographics and so on. While Japan has a unique approach, who knows, maybe lack of supervising and attention at such young age cause such issues. In my view, Japan is the edge case, and there should be the more balanced approach.

77pt77 10y ago
> a lot of people with sociopathy really? Depressed, withdrawn, neurotic maybe, but sociopathic?!
- hx87 10y ago
  OP is probably using the term (very, very wrongly) as a catch-all for psychological problems.

edblarney 10y ago

It's difficult to separate this issue from the vastly civilized cultural context of Japan. Kids can take the bus because there is a near zero chance that someone will do something bad to them. If they are lost, they are surrounded by people who will help them. North American urban areas are not quite like this ... Also, the simply geographic issues of housing/roads and large distances between things is a pretty big factor. No guns, homogenous society, extremely well behaved people ... American leftists and rightists would each find something to 'freak out' about were America to try to recreate the kind of civility they have there ...

jernfrost 10y ago

This isn't so much the Japanese being weird and different as the American's being the odd ones. I am Norwegian, and little of these descriptions would seem odd to me. My kids go on trips every week with their pre-school, and I have never keep track of where. My oldest son has walked to school himself since he has been 6 years old. I walked to school when I was a kid from 7 (we started school later). And I had to walk about 30 minutes to get to school crossing many roads. From early childhood I roamed around all my neighborhood walking into forests or as I got a bit older I'd go with friends to big abandoned ship yards. When I later emailed a distant American relative of similar age, I was confused when she didn't understand why I didn't have a drivers license. She was like "doesn't your parent's get tired of driving you everywhere?". A question that made no sense to me until I visited the US. I was of course going everywhere and I didn't need parents or a car to do that. I could take the train, bus or subway myself or bike. In America however it is simply sad how dependent children are on their parents. Parents take them to every sort of activity and thing they got to do. In so many American cities you can't have a life without a car. There is nothing to do without a car.

HemanHeartYou 10y ago
It's all fun and games until someone gets kidnapped. There's also the situation where a lot of American towns/cities aren't so crowded that you can walk everywhere. And not everywhere in America is there good public transportation.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  > It's all fun and games until someone gets kidnapped. But statistically, how often does that happen? Is it enough to be seriously worried about? > There's also the situation where a lot of American towns/cities aren't so crowded that you can walk everywhere. And not everywhere in America is there good public transportation. I don't think it's an issue of being crowded. I think it's an issue of how we design our cities. We assume everyone will have a car, so those that don't have a car (kids) have less independence. A lot of Europe was built before cars existed, so they don't assume that everyone will have their own car.

pelasaco 10y ago

"Trusting the Community".. try it in USA :P

mamcx 10y ago

I start doing some grocery buys as 7/8 years old and go to school alone at the same age. In medellin. In the 90s. Towards schools with some gang members. Where some shootings happened (outside!). And get mugged a few times. After bombings 7 blocks away home. And get to the school alone next day. Equal as elsewhere. Now here are copying some of the unfortunate aspects of the US culture and some of my younger cousins have not idea how navigate the city alone. Despite to be very shy and introvert, I'm certain I can get lost anywhere and find my way back home! --- By the way, bullying was very uncommon, despite being the most nerd there. Now is epidemic. When kid looking at US movies I wonder when we will start to copy it.

readhn 10y ago

When I was little my mom would give me a few coins and send me to the store with a milk jug to get some milk and bread. A couple of times Every week. They would also give me a garbage bag to take out on my way there( dumpster was a few blocks away). I was not that small, may be 9 or 10. This was not in USA. Today I live 10000 miles from home on another continent speaking another language... Are these connected? Who knows. Was it dangerous? Who knows. My kids for sure will not be helicoptered over...

randomgyatwork 10y ago

In Japan I noticed that the public washrooms were always so clean, magnitudes cleaner than anything in Canada. My wife told me at school that all the students take turns cleaning the bathroom, this meant if you made a mass you'd eventually have to clean it up. The idea seems to be that by keeping it clean you avoid having to clean up someone else's mess later, seems to encourage doing the right thing.

fhood 10y ago

I want to make two points. First: People on this website tend not to have grown up poor, but let me assure you that that demographic of Americans has no problem with independence. My friend has had a job since he was twelve, and until he moved out (at 18) he had to pay his share of the household bills. And he has bad credit because when they needed money his mom borrowed money in his name. Second: Im a college student, so I see a lot of people floundering with new found independence. First people who grew up poorer can, in general, cook, clean and shop properly. Of those that grew up in wealthier families, the "only" children are the ones that tend to struggle at first. In the end though, most of them figure it out. Large universities are pretty good at fostering independence. Primarily because they don't really care about their students. Either you figure it out or flunk out. I know that anecdotes of peoples parents coming with them to interviews are common, but I don't know a single person who has had this particular indignity inflicted on them. In general I think that adults in the United States are fairly good at being independent from their parents and American Universities have helped with this. I also know that Asian, and Japanese universities have a reputation for coddling their students, to the point that American professors are wary of taking them on as grad students (not to say that some of them aren't fantastic students because they are). I also know that Japanese parents are far more likely to support their children financially into their adulthoods than American parents are. So while I agree with many of the sentiments here I want to point out that Americans do force their children to be independent. They just wait until they are 18-25.

joggery 10y ago

What will the effect of self-driving cars be on children's independence?

ericmo 10y ago

I'm a Sansei in Brazil, which essentially means most people think I'm Japanese while the Japanese think I'm not, so I've peeked both sides and I can tell you this: yes, childhood in Japan can be amazing, but certainly Japanese culture in general isn't about independence, it's actually quite the opposite, it's about order and individuals adhering to his/her role in this order. "Do as your parents said, get into college, respect your boss." It's even kind of bittersweet that childhood in Japan is so good, because you'll grow up knowing what you've lost. On the other hand, it's also not all smell of flowers, because children being independent also means that if mom isn't home, you have to be the responsible sibling, it could be a form to shorten childhood.