7 ms·

This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. The other problem is that when you pay them

This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. The other problem is that when you pay them you generate all sorts of nightmaris legal liabilities.

jpalomaki 10y ago
2 hour deadline and forcing the task to be done at the office turns it to a different kind test. This becomes more like how do you perform under stress and how well can you propose things out of your head. These are valuable skills as well, but I think having the weekend to spend with the problem more accurately models the actual development work.
- thinkmassive 10y ago
  Your point is valid, although technically it would be under pressure as opposed to stress. The difference might seem minor but it's rather significant, and it's a characteristic many employers would intentionally want to measure. I highly recommend the book Performing Under Pressure, by Weisinger & Pawliw-Fry.
- clarry 10y ago
  Pressure comes in many forms. Certainly, being able to handle pressure is a good thing. But how often is it needed and what kind of pressure is it? What kind of relief have you got? As I understand it, the more common form of pressure would come from having to deliver things in a tight schedule, and perhaps in certain kinds of meetings and presentations. Not from being forced to work in a foreign environment with foreign computers & tools and unknown people hanging around, watching and JUDGING you. If a company puts an engineer in the latter position very often, it might be doing something rather wrong. Whereas in the former situation, employers can find relief in at least having colleagues they are familiar with and an environment they're used to & comfortable with.
davidbanham 10y ago
Absolutely agree with the sentiment here. I have used this technique for a couple of years now, except that I kept the task to 20 minutes (and didn't pay people, since it's a short amount of time). To save dragging people into an office for that time period, I set up a custom git server that marks the timestamps of their pulls and pushes. The instructions for the task are contained in the README of the repo, so as soon as they pull it they've started. https://github.com/Prismatik/codescreen https://github.com/Prismatik/codescreen It's critical to me that the limit is adhered to so that over time I can compare candidate responses on a level playing field.
- nzjrs 10y ago
  Jesus, your solution is a nightmarish timed examination and as far as I can tell, the opposite sentiment expressed in the article.
- mcv 10y ago
  20 minutes is way too little for a meaningful programming task that's worth presenting to the other devs (and that's the really vital part of this method in my opinion). I prefer to see what people write in their normal way of working when they're not under extreme time pressure.
Udo 10y ago
> This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. This goes against the core message of the article. The candidate is supposed to think about a problem on their own, and propose a well-reflected solution on Monday. That's pretty much the opposite of "sit down in this noisy corner in an unknown environment and give us something in two hours". > The other problem is that when you pay them you generate all sorts of nightmaris legal liabilities. If hiring a freelancer to do a little thing tends to generate all sorts of nightmarish legal liabilities, your company is either a government contractor or it has even bigger structural problems than hiring.
- vhab 10y ago
  > If hiring a freelancer to do a little thing tends to generate all sorts of nightmarish legal liabilities, your company is either a government contractor or it has even bigger structural problems than hiring. It might not be an issue for your company, but your candidate might have a non-compete (or other clause) preventing them from accepting compensation or even performing work for another company at all. Things get trickier as soon as money is involved.
  - bjt 10y ago
    Any company trying to enforce such a non-compete against someone who just earned $200 would spend a lot more than that in legal fees. This feels like legal paranoia to me.
    - blowski 10y ago
      To me it feels like classic "A-ha! I discovered an edge case so the entire solution is invalid!". Just handle the edge case differently to how you handle everything else.
    - m_mueller 10y ago
      Furthermore, in German we have a saying: "Where there is no judge, there's no executioner". Maybe this attitude is more popular in Switzerland than in Germany, but the basic meaning is: don't sweat the legality of small exchanges that (a) don't affect anyone negatively and (b) aren't in some government agency's crosshair. That being said, your mileage in different legal systems may vary - in our civil law system it's probably more common for a judge to simply throw out such trifling matters and people are generally also way less inclined to start a lawsuit.
JauntyHatAngle 10y ago
>This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. Did you read the article? That's what the article author is saying not to do, they prefer to see a well worked solution after you define a particular technology, showing they are adaptable and have thought it through properly. Limiting them to your office, timeboxed, advantages people who spit out lines of code quickly, which is definitely not the right fit for a huge amount of coding positions, especially when you are emphasising logical choices and design decisions.
- blowski 10y ago
  Please don't suggest someone hasn't read the article. It sounds hostile and doesn't really add anything to your comment.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    It does add to the comment. It hopefully encourages people to actually read the article. People can not contribute to a discussion constructively if they do not read the subject of the discussion.
    - blowski 10y ago
      From the HN Guidelines: > Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
      - MustardTiger 10y ago
        I know it is in the guidelines. I am saying that I disagree with that guideline as it does not accomplish the goal the guidelines are intended to accomplish.
deepGem 10y ago
What's the legal liability ? It's not illegal to do a small project for someone and get paid for it. If the interviewee is on a H1B or some visa like that then I can see some issues.
- stephen_g 10y ago
  It varies a lot depending on where you are. In Australia, it's dead easy if the employee has a registered business number (ABN) to be able to contract as a 'sole trader', because they can just give you a tax invoice and declare the income separately when they do their tax return (it's just a separate section on the web form). But probably only 10-20% of people will have set that up, and for people who don't have an ABN, you have to basically fill out all the forms you would to make them an employee (you need their tax file number, have to submit a form to the tax office, have to get their superannuation details so you can pay them the mandatory 9% additional retirement savings on top of what you pay them, etc.)...
jobu 10y ago
> The other problem is that when you pay them you generate all sorts of nightmarish legal liabilities. I was wondering about the tax and legal implications around paying someone for an interview challenge as well. The overall idea seems fantastic, but paying or receiving money for an interview coding challenge is a little weird.
- blowski 10y ago
  Tax authorities usually don't care about a one-off small payment.
  - LoSboccacc 10y ago
    where I live you are allowed to gain up to 5k year for 'hobby' projects that you do on the side.
    - Humdeee 10y ago
      I was pretty happy to find this out recently. It was a non-tech person who brought it to my attention actually. It's definitely motivation to monetize some small projects I've had in mind for a while now.
- happywolf 10y ago
  We can treat that as a consultation gig which may lead to an offer. It is up to the candidate to declare this income to the tax authority.
- Terr_ 10y ago
  Plus, what about candidate non-completes, doing a paid task for a competitor? (Most people aren't in California.)
- collyw 10y ago
  Its better than being asked to do it for free. A company recently asked me to do a task they expected me to take ten hours, unpaid of course. I told them I thought it was kind of ridiculous. "Well do what you can in two or three hours and if you really impress us with what you have done..." The company really didn't impress me enough to bother.
ubernostrum 10y ago
This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. Yes. And to make sure they don't cheat on it, maybe don't let them use a computer or the internet. A whiteboard ought to be enough. And just to be really sure, make them explain what they're doing in real time as they do it. That will do quite well, and offer a wonderful alternative to the standard, awful, whiteboard coding interview.

jpalomaki 10y ago

2 hour deadline and forcing the task to be done at the office turns it to a different kind test. This becomes more like how do you perform under stress and how well can you propose things out of your head. These are valuable skills as well, but I think having the weekend to spend with the problem more accurately models the actual development work.

thinkmassive 10y ago
Your point is valid, although technically it would be under pressure as opposed to stress. The difference might seem minor but it's rather significant, and it's a characteristic many employers would intentionally want to measure. I highly recommend the book Performing Under Pressure, by Weisinger & Pawliw-Fry.
clarry 10y ago
Pressure comes in many forms. Certainly, being able to handle pressure is a good thing. But how often is it needed and what kind of pressure is it? What kind of relief have you got? As I understand it, the more common form of pressure would come from having to deliver things in a tight schedule, and perhaps in certain kinds of meetings and presentations. Not from being forced to work in a foreign environment with foreign computers & tools and unknown people hanging around, watching and JUDGING you. If a company puts an engineer in the latter position very often, it might be doing something rather wrong. Whereas in the former situation, employers can find relief in at least having colleagues they are familiar with and an environment they're used to & comfortable with.

davidbanham 10y ago

Absolutely agree with the sentiment here. I have used this technique for a couple of years now, except that I kept the task to 20 minutes (and didn't pay people, since it's a short amount of time). To save dragging people into an office for that time period, I set up a custom git server that marks the timestamps of their pulls and pushes. The instructions for the task are contained in the README of the repo, so as soon as they pull it they've started. https://github.com/Prismatik/codescreen https://github.com/Prismatik/codescreen It's critical to me that the limit is adhered to so that over time I can compare candidate responses on a level playing field.

nzjrs 10y ago
Jesus, your solution is a nightmarish timed examination and as far as I can tell, the opposite sentiment expressed in the article.
mcv 10y ago
20 minutes is way too little for a meaningful programming task that's worth presenting to the other devs (and that's the really vital part of this method in my opinion). I prefer to see what people write in their normal way of working when they're not under extreme time pressure.

Udo 10y ago

> This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. This goes against the core message of the article. The candidate is supposed to think about a problem on their own, and propose a well-reflected solution on Monday. That's pretty much the opposite of "sit down in this noisy corner in an unknown environment and give us something in two hours". > The other problem is that when you pay them you generate all sorts of nightmaris legal liabilities. If hiring a freelancer to do a little thing tends to generate all sorts of nightmarish legal liabilities, your company is either a government contractor or it has even bigger structural problems than hiring.

vhab 10y ago
> If hiring a freelancer to do a little thing tends to generate all sorts of nightmarish legal liabilities, your company is either a government contractor or it has even bigger structural problems than hiring. It might not be an issue for your company, but your candidate might have a non-compete (or other clause) preventing them from accepting compensation or even performing work for another company at all. Things get trickier as soon as money is involved.
- bjt 10y ago
  Any company trying to enforce such a non-compete against someone who just earned $200 would spend a lot more than that in legal fees. This feels like legal paranoia to me.
  - blowski 10y ago
    To me it feels like classic "A-ha! I discovered an edge case so the entire solution is invalid!". Just handle the edge case differently to how you handle everything else.
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    Furthermore, in German we have a saying: "Where there is no judge, there's no executioner". Maybe this attitude is more popular in Switzerland than in Germany, but the basic meaning is: don't sweat the legality of small exchanges that (a) don't affect anyone negatively and (b) aren't in some government agency's crosshair. That being said, your mileage in different legal systems may vary - in our civil law system it's probably more common for a judge to simply throw out such trifling matters and people are generally also way less inclined to start a lawsuit.

JauntyHatAngle 10y ago

>This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. Did you read the article? That's what the article author is saying not to do, they prefer to see a well worked solution after you define a particular technology, showing they are adaptable and have thought it through properly. Limiting them to your office, timeboxed, advantages people who spit out lines of code quickly, which is definitely not the right fit for a huge amount of coding positions, especially when you are emphasising logical choices and design decisions.

blowski 10y ago
Please don't suggest someone hasn't read the article. It sounds hostile and doesn't really add anything to your comment.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  It does add to the comment. It hopefully encourages people to actually read the article. People can not contribute to a discussion constructively if they do not read the subject of the discussion.
  - blowski 10y ago
    From the HN Guidelines: > Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      I know it is in the guidelines. I am saying that I disagree with that guideline as it does not accomplish the goal the guidelines are intended to accomplish.

deepGem 10y ago

What's the legal liability ? It's not illegal to do a small project for someone and get paid for it. If the interviewee is on a H1B or some visa like that then I can see some issues.

stephen_g 10y ago
It varies a lot depending on where you are. In Australia, it's dead easy if the employee has a registered business number (ABN) to be able to contract as a 'sole trader', because they can just give you a tax invoice and declare the income separately when they do their tax return (it's just a separate section on the web form). But probably only 10-20% of people will have set that up, and for people who don't have an ABN, you have to basically fill out all the forms you would to make them an employee (you need their tax file number, have to submit a form to the tax office, have to get their superannuation details so you can pay them the mandatory 9% additional retirement savings on top of what you pay them, etc.)...

jobu 10y ago

> The other problem is that when you pay them you generate all sorts of nightmarish legal liabilities. I was wondering about the tax and legal implications around paying someone for an interview challenge as well. The overall idea seems fantastic, but paying or receiving money for an interview coding challenge is a little weird.

blowski 10y ago
Tax authorities usually don't care about a one-off small payment.
- LoSboccacc 10y ago
  where I live you are allowed to gain up to 5k year for 'hobby' projects that you do on the side.
  - Humdeee 10y ago
    I was pretty happy to find this out recently. It was a non-tech person who brought it to my attention actually. It's definitely motivation to monetize some small projects I've had in mind for a while now.
happywolf 10y ago
We can treat that as a consultation gig which may lead to an offer. It is up to the candidate to declare this income to the tax authority.
Terr_ 10y ago
Plus, what about candidate non-completes, doing a paid task for a competitor? (Most people aren't in California.)
collyw 10y ago
Its better than being asked to do it for free. A company recently asked me to do a task they expected me to take ten hours, unpaid of course. I told them I thought it was kind of ridiculous. "Well do what you can in two or three hours and if you really impress us with what you have done..." The company really didn't impress me enough to bother.

ubernostrum 10y ago

This works, but make sure they spend the 2 hours in your office and not 12 hours at home solving a 2 hour problem.. Yes. And to make sure they don't cheat on it, maybe don't let them use a computer or the internet. A whiteboard ought to be enough. And just to be really sure, make them explain what they're doing in real time as they do it. That will do quite well, and offer a wonderful alternative to the standard, awful, whiteboard coding interview.