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Epic Games chief pays $15M to protect 7,000 acres of North Carolina wilderness
- knowaveragejoe 10y agoHopefully we see similar efforts from others. The incoming president has stated he plans to gut the EPA and potentially even divvy up some state/national parks for development. Private donors will have to win out over commercial interests, as far as conservation is concerned.
- _delirium 10y agoOne option for people with some money to spare, but not enough to personally buy thousands of acres, is to donate to a conservation land trust, which pools money to buy up land and preserve it. These are usually local or state/regional organizations, such as the Texas Land Conservancy [1] or the John Muir Land Trust [2]. There's a directory of them here: http://findalandtrust.org/ http://findalandtrust.org/ [1] http://www.texaslandconservancy.org/ http://www.texaslandconservancy.org/ [2] http://www.jmlt.org/ http://www.jmlt.org/
- jrobn 10y agoMaybe also think about donating to http://earthjustice.org http://earthjustice.org. They are a non profit that fights cases in court to protect wild spaces, destructive legislation, and corporate rape of public lands.
- justin66 10y agoThere's a lot of this going on in some places. It's useful for people who already own a lot of land but don't want to pay property taxes on it. Agree not to drill for oil or cut down timber in your enormous back yard and get a huge tax discount...
- ethbro 10y agoIsn't the purpose of a land tax to encourage the most productive use of land? So if we value wilderness, then a tax break seems like the correct way to facilitate that.
- mikeyouse 10y agoYou're not joking.. The guy who's in charge of Trump's EPA transition thinks that climate change is a hoax, that the Clean Power Plan is illegal, that the Endangered Species Act should be repealed, that the Paris Climate Agreement is unconstitutional. The likely pick to head the DOE is a lobbyist for the oil industry who wants to open up Federal lands for energy exploration. Good lord this election is going to have far-reaching consequences.
- knowaveragejoe 10y agoMy understanding is that there are other options he could go with, but it is indeed alarming that the seeming "top pick" would be this guy of all people. It's a shame.
- mikeyouse 10y agoYeah, Myron Ebell is the person I'm referring to for the EPA. He's the odds on favorite to get the job in the end, but today he's leading the team to transition the department to a Trump White House. Even if he doesn't end up with the job, he's the person picking the eventual department head.
- losteric 10y agoIt's not just Trump, the entire government is seeing red. The Republicans have control of the House, Senate, Presidency, and they will take control of the Judicial branch as well. It's a conservative wet dream. In four years, we'll either have a 1-party system or an N-party system.
- M_Grey 10y agoGiven the republican track record, in 4 years we'll be in a serious economic crisis, at least one war, and they'll be incredibly unpopular. Fortunately for them, they're well funded and well gerrymandered.
- germinalphrase 10y ago
- hkmurakami 10y agoI've always wondered when development pressures will reclaim the open space and nature preserves we have in the Bay Area. Perhaps this is it.
- hx87 10y agoDepends on how strong vertical NIMBY is compared to horizontal NIMBY. I hope the latter is stronger.
- wnevets 10y agohillary had those emails tho, so its ok.
- AnOscelot 10y agoOne organization I support is the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance[1]. For those of you that care about the redrock desert, please look into them. They were very effective in the Bush years and I'm hoping they will be again. [1] suwa.org
- jyriand 10y agoThere's a great documentary "You've been trumped" about Trump's great ambition to build a golf course to Scotland. This is a nice example what the future president thinks about nature and wilderness. Full doc seems to be available in youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCfaYlRyTGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCfaYlRyTGA
- odbol_ 10y agoBe prepared for Trump Towers in every National Forest. It's going to be YUUUUGE.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Shivetya 10y agoWell if they do sell some of it then its an idea time for those who can and want to protect the environment long term step forward. People need to see it as an opportunity and then take it.
- johansch 10y agoQuite a leap from building Jill of the Jungle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4IArecoE_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4IArecoE_c).
- johansch 10y agoI know this is futzy to ask.. but why downvote this to 0? I think Tim is brilliant.
- joakleaf 10y agoJill of the Jungle was one of those shareware games where the technology (and graphics) was not great, but the gameplay was! It came after id software had developed smooth scrolling games (albeit only in EGA) and the scrolling in Jill just felt pretty bad. Smooth scrolling was certainly possible in 256 color VGA, and they could also have used mode X to perform fast blits (4 pixel moves). They didn't use the smooth scrolling registers, and it didn't seem like they used mode X - at least the game did not feel like it. However, I think, keeping the scrolling implementation simple, enabled them to focus on gameplay and sound on the Sound Blaster -- a relatively cool and unique thing at the time! Thus a classic example of not getting distracted by the tech side of things, but focusing on user experience. I dazzled quite a bit with side scrollers then, and it took me a long time to uncover the possible ways to use the VGA hardware on the 286 and 386 for scrolling -- It was really hard to find information about the VGA hardware registers around 1990/1. By the time I had it nailed, the 486DX was already common and fast enough that everything could be done trivially on the CPU. Thus everything I had struggled to learn about smooth scrolling on the VGA hardware became obsolete. That was how I learned, not to spend too much time trying to optimize (prematurely) for current hardware!
- johansch 10y ago> I dazzled quite a bit with side scrollers then, and it took me a long time to uncover the possible ways to use the VGA hardware on the 286 and 386 for scrolling -- It was really hard to find information about the VGA hardware registers around 1990/1. By the time I had it nailed, the 486DX was already common and fast enough that everything could be done trivially on the CPU. Thus everything I had struggled to learn about smooth scrolling on the VGA hardware became obsolete. That was how I learned, not to spend too much time trying to optimize (prematurely) for current hardware! I did the same, but with the 486 in 1993! And I wasn't connected at all, no BBS:es, just sharing copies of copies of copies of floppies (etc etc). It's hard to imagine the dearth of information nowadays, and how valuable every scrap of information was. Now and then you'd get across this goldmine of information (in the form of some source code), and spend weeks/months understanding it all. I spent so much time experimenting with Turbo Pascal, inline assembly and VGA mode 13h and mode X. And trying to build the ultimate sprite and tile engine... The good thing about not being connected though: it was easy to stay concentrated on one issue at a time.
- M_Grey 10y agoThis is the kind of action that can have long-term positive impacts. Maybe it won't change the world, and it won't get you Zuckerberg "I'm ending all disease" press, but it's immediately, tangibly beneficial to masses of life. I respect the hell out of this.
- douche 10y agoFantastic, great work Tim Sweeny. One note of caution, is that sometimes when private individuals buy up these big chunks of land from the government or big land-management organizations, they restrict access and traditional activities on that land in ways that mightily piss off the locals. It's a not uncommon point of contention in the north woods of Maine where I grew up; IP or Meade or Plumb Creek tends to be pretty lax about hunting, fishing, snowmobiling, etc, as long as their lumber is left alone and the roads aren't ripped up. Millionaires from away have a tendency to lock it down and post everything, in a modern-day form of enclosure.
- david-given 10y agoI come from Scotland, and that's one of the weirdest things to get used to in other countries: that someone can just fence off a patch of wilderness, say 'that's mine' and stop anyone from going in. It feels oddly alien; I can't think of a worse way to teach respect for the countryside. If it's land that's being used for something, that's one thing. Generic wilderness? That just seems wrong. (Scotland doesn't have trespass is the same sense that other countries have. The legal system is quite different from English law, which I believe (vaguely) is what the US system was based on.)
- branchless 10y agoI love this part in Guthrie's "This land is your land": As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there And that sign said - no tress passin' But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin! Now that side was made for you and me!
- alistairSH 10y agoScottish-American here, and every time I visit family, I wonder how we got it so wrong over here in the US. And it's not just millionaires and wilderness. Anecdote: A friend lives in Oklahoma, on a few wooded acres. One day, he posts a photo on Facebook of some guys riding horses across the corner of his property. He didn't care (no reason to), but the first response, "Why were they there? Did you go after them?" Makes no sense.
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- perfmode 10y agoOf course it changes the world.
- dang 10y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12913658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12913658 and marked it off-topic.
- ronilan 10y agoMore accurately, prevents changing the world.
- mc32 10y agoPhysically yes, but it changes attitudes towards how we view our environment and that's refreshing coming from a corp.
- zokier 10y agoI don't think this comes from the corp, but from an individual (who just happens to be most famous for running a corp).
- webkike 10y agoOr more pedantically, allow a part of the world to keep changing the same way for longer
- M_Grey 10y agoSo does pissing in the ocean, technically, but I hope you still understood what I meant. This scale of action won't alter the course of world affairs in an appreciable way, and yet is still demonstrably positive.
- nikatwork 10y ago> I hope you still understood what I meant It wouldn't be HN without autistically pedantic nits on scope and definition that add nothing of value to the discourse.
- WalterBright 10y agoBuying land and making nature preserves out of it is an excellent and effective way for wealthy people to do good.
- jonknee 10y agoThat's what turned me into a fan of Ted Turner: http://www.tedturner.com/turner-ranches/ http://www.tedturner.com/turner-ranches/
- cpeterso 10y agoThe Nature Conservancy does something similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_Conservancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_Conservancy
- branchless 10y agoIn our current system, yes, but should we not reach higher to say that this land is common land and that it is a resource not just for us but for all generations going forward. When we say that all land is for sale and once owned is at the disposal of the owner in perpetuity, we rely on the good-will of the owner. In the majority of cases this is not enough. We need to look at land ownership differently if we want to achieve real change. We have to bake in behaviour into the rules of our society. Right now we bake in land speculation and exploitation of natural resources for private good and often the public purse picks up the pollution costs later.
- jonlucc 10y agoI think it's worse than that. This particular person is in a position to likely make enough money to not need to worry about the cost of management of this land. What if his kids aren't as rich or don't care as much about nature? What if he has 6 kids and they split the land equally; will 5 generations down the line still feel attached to their distant relatives to be able to hold the land together?
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- deepnotderp 10y agoWith the trump presidency coming up, we'll need more people like this. Even the common people can do so, try dominating to some organizations.
- treehau5 10y agoLess government regulatation, government doing less and citizens doing more? Sounds like a political ideology I've heard of before...name is slipping me right now.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- formula1 10y agoThis made me smile. Threat of big bad gov in a free market certainly gives incentive for people to give back
- Retra 10y agoIs it that one that never works because it is completely fragile, unenforceable, and prone to divide-and-conquer over-runs by corporate interests?
- drzaiusapelord 10y agoI'm sorry but there's no way a well-off geek is going to off-set what Trump's EPA is capable of doing. The proposed interim chief is a global warming denier with dreams of privatizing our national and state parks for development and has issues with the Endangered Species Act and other "big government" regulations. This reminds of previous elections when the GOP candidate would talk about gutting social programs and protections and that private donors and churches and such will take up the slack. Its fairly unrealistic for even large amounts of private wealth to make up for federal cuts. The EPA and DOI collectively have a near $30bn budget. If Bill Gates liquidized all his wealth and donated it, it wouldn't even pay for three years of their budget. Practical plans to keep animals from going extinct require non-stop work, sometimes for decades. I doubt we'd have bald eagles today if Reagan tried to privatize these agencies, gave away their lands, or removed their regulatory powers.
- lukego 10y agoJust randomly: one of my great internet regrets is flaming Tim Sweeney about boring type system wars on "Lambda: The Ultimate" without realizing what an impressive fellow he is :).
- ethbro 10y agoI made a joke about Walter Bright's (of so many famous things) username without knowing who it was. That was a distinct "Wow, I feel like an asshole" day. So it happens to all of us, I guess; take your lumps and keep on trying to be awesome.
- spullara 10y agoThis is become a popular way to avoid paying income taxes. This year it moved from being able to offset 30% of income to 50% of income. It can be 100% of income if you are a farmer.
- hackaflocka 10y agoWhat if a source of perpetual energy is found under that land. And the land needs to be destroyed to dig it out. Should it still be protected. Relax liberals: it's called a "thought experiment".
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- M_Grey 10y agoActually it's called, "Not understanding the first thing about physics."
- tobltobs 10y agoI would call that a lame try to troll.
- ChrisClark 10y agoThen any reasonable person, including Tim, would allow it. Was that supposed to be hard?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- hx87 10y agoI'm not sure why you're assuming your downvoters are liberals. This is a private citizen donating his own money to conservation, so everyone from liberals to conservatives to populists to libertarians can be for it.
- sctb 10y agoPlease stop posting unsubstantive comments with inflammatory accessories.
- maxxxxx 10y agoI am a little cynical maybe but I wouldn't be surprised if they built a luxury resort next to it and only wealthy clients can access it. I would be more positive if it were run like a national park accessible to all.
- zokier 10y ago> if they built a luxury resort next to it and only wealthy clients can access it. Would that be such a bad thing though? Seems like lot better than not having protected land at all.
- maxxxxx 10y agoIt's a problem in the sense that more and more area is accessible only to rich people. There is a good reason that ocean beaches in the US are accessible to everyone.
- hx87 10y agoOnly in California though--most ocean beaches in New England are private. Limiting access to rich people does raise inequality, though it is very effective at keeping human impact low.
- tjbiddle 10y agoHow about an idea like this: - Setup non-taxable charity - Inject $15M in charity - Purchase $15M of land, make it accessible to wealthy only for a price of $X with monthly/annual dues of $X - Accumulate $15M in non-taxable profits - Purchase $15M of land - Make first segment open to public, repeat process.
- bouncingsoul 10y ago“It’s still in private ownership but the easement ensures it can never be developed,” Sweeney said. “It’s not open to anyone in the public at any time, but people can email and get a permission card and go and enjoy it.” http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2016/11/08/box-creek-wilderness-permanently-protected/93443704/ http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2016/11/08/box...
- tomovo 10y agoI try to help whenever I can... http://www.laphroaig.com/default.aspx?ReturnURL=/friends/registration/CodeCheck.aspx http://www.laphroaig.com/default.aspx?ReturnURL=/friends/reg...
- deepnotderp 10y agoJust bought some stuff from Epic games after reading this, keep it up :)
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- fiatjaf 10y agoThis is stupid. He should have bought the area and protected it himself. This donation will be used to finance wars and hire government employees that will stand in their desks the whole day waiting for someone to bribe them, not a single penny will be used to protect land or animals. Never give your money to the government, it doesn't matter what are you thinking, it is never a good idea.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jstelly 10y agoThe article links to a more accurate piece. He did buy the property for $15M. He then created an easement preventing development and donated that easement to US Fish & wildlife. He has also bought other property for the same purpose. He created this easement partially because a developer sued to use eminent domain to force him to allow them to construct a power line across the property. http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2016/11/08/box-creek-wilderness-permanently-protected/93443704/ http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2016/11/08/box...
- RayVR 10y agoThis is a tax scheme to offset massive amounts of income. I have looked at many of these deals. You can generally get multiples of 3-10x the value based on the government discount tables. Congrats to him for playing it this way.
- formula1 10y agoPlease provide a source(s). I appreciate this kind of knowledge because I have little faith in american upperclasses approach to good will. But unless I see proof, I dont want to feel like ab angry fool
- 1123581321 10y agoYou don't need to either way. Our government provides this large tax break incentive intentionally because it is good for the earth.
- RayVR 10y agoIf you simply google this incentive you'll see that it's history long predates any popular notion of environmental preservation.
- 1123581321 10y agoYou're right, and in the last ten years or so (after the IRS took notice and started cracking down on abuses) it's become an intentional conservation strategy. The recent legislation to increase the valuation demonstrates this.
- RayVR 10y agoShouldn't really have to go to google for you but here's the first link: http://www.landtrustalliance.org/topics/taxes/income-tax-incentives-land-conservation http://www.landtrustalliance.org/topics/taxes/income-tax-inc... And by the way, Trump uses these deals extensively. When he builds a golf course he'll donate the right to build condos on ~30% of the property to avoid taxes.
- alanz1223 10y agoHad it been musk though, oh you people would have sacrificed a small child in his name. I applaud this guy, doing more than most of the people that claim to be saviours or at least perceived that way.
- divyekapoor 10y agoA conservation easement is not a payment. Sweeney didn't actually pay $15 million. He just gave up the right to develop on a piece of land he wasn't ever going to develop on anyway. This gives him a $15 million tax deduction over several years that he can use to offset his tax liabilities. Since he donated $15 million worth of property rights, he probably has a lot of them. Not very different from Trump's conservation easement donation in New York.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- iamcreasy 10y agoWhat is your source? The article explicitly says 'Epic Games founder Tim Sweeney has reportedly paid $15 million to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to permanently protect 7,000 acres of undeveloped land'.
- notlisted 10y agoI guess it works like this - http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-land-donations-put-him-in-line-for-conservation-tax-breaks-1457656717 http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-land-donations-put...
- refurb 10y agoSweeney didn't actually pay $15 million. He just gave up the right to develop on a piece of land he wasn't ever going to develop on anyway. That's an odd way to look at it. Let's say I donate a car that's worth $10,000. I never plan on driving it again. Does that mean it's not worth $10,000?
- touristtam 10y agoThat s the whole issue with market economie: everything has potentially a price tag.
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- ukfingreptilian 10y agoseriously: now if someone would pay someone 50,000/yr to remove Mothman/Mosquito people from the wildernesses of the USA, we would be progressing. did you know? 1% of the population goes missing every year (40,000 people); mostly in the national parks? - \r\reptiliandata
- seattle_spring 10y agoThere's so many things wrong with this comment, I don't even know where to begin. 1) There are 320 million people in the US today, which puts 1% at 3,200,000. Where on Earth did you come up with 40,000? 2) There have been 1,100 missing persons from National Parks in the last 100 years. That's 11 per year on average. How did you stretch that to almost 4000x the real number?
- sctb 10y agoWe've banned this account.
- happycodework 10y agoI know, you also delete the proof about vaccines being little ufos. Vaccines are little ufos and cause testy, breast and vagina cancer... Check the graphs! Hackernews deleted it and other reptilian posts. Reddit too. Shills!! https://np.reddit.com/r/AskScienceDiscussion/comments/59otfy/small_correllation_between_vaxx_rate_and_breast/ https://np.reddit.com/r/AskScienceDiscussion/comments/59otfy...
- iamcreasy 10y agoCorrelation isn't really causation. Also have you read any of the responses posted on that reddit discussion? Here is some example of coorelation : http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations Notice that even though the graph looks very similar, one thing is not related to another.
- happycodework 10y ago
- austinl 10y agoReminds me of Douglas Tompkins (the founder of Esprit and The North Face) who has done this on a much larger scale in Chile and Argentina. He's used his profit from selling his share in both companies to buy over 2 million acres of land, and is in the process of restoring the it to original conditions (which is sometimes at odds with the interest of local ranchers). Check out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Tompkins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Tompkins http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/09/the-entrepreneur-who-wants-to-save-paradise/380116/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/09/the-entr...
- ivm 10y agoHe also successfully fought against greedy politicians and businessmen who wanted to build huge dams in Patagonia and flood an enormous area. I think it is one of the reasons why Chile is turning towards solar now.
- boulos 10y agoSadly, after his death it's unclear what will happen. His widow and the foundation have stated that they're likely to return the land to Chile (it has been controversial that it was privately held) and hope that the government will treat it with the same care.
- Pica_soO 10y agoAwesome, wish we had more of this kind of silent heroes, investing into biodiversity and keeping a little bit of nature save from the worst animal on the planet.
- photonwins 10y agoYou don't have to be rich to do this. http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/short-film-showcase/india-man-plants-forest-bigger-than-central-park-to-save-his-island http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/short-film-showcas...
- eadlam 10y agoIs there anything like Kickstarter where citizens can pool their money to buy up land for conservation?
- douche 10y agoIn Quebec, there are a huge number of Zec's[1]. Basically non-profit, co-op hunting and fishing clubs. Quebec does have the advantage that there is a huge amount of mostly empty Crown land, but they are pretty common in the denser section south of the St. Lawrence as well. [1] http://www.perc.org/blog/what-world-zec http://www.perc.org/blog/what-world-zec
- ignoramceisblis 10y agoFrom elsewhere in the comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12913462 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12913462
- qwertyuiop924 10y agoIs it a tax dodge? Yes. But it's a really cool tax dodge.
- oliyoung 10y agoit's not a dodge, it's exactly the reason these deductions exist, to encourage philanthropy and charity
- tn13 10y agoA lot of billionaires are doing this. I am no billionaire but I purchased a small hunting grounds in Arizona few years back.
- h4nkoslo 10y agoI'm always curious about the model fans of this approach are using. What is the "correct" amount of conserved land? Given that the government essentially never reverses these kinds of easements or grants, you have to be extremely confident of future possible uses of the land to say that deeding it in perpetuity is a good idea. The HN crowd tends to realize that a policy of "never build anything ever again" is a bad idea in SF, but is a great idea as long as the area in question is mostly trees not in their backyard.
- daveheq 10y agoYay! Thank you human CEO being.
- mcs_ 10y agoPay to build Pay to not build
- gild 10y agoAll right, I'll play devil's advocate. What happens a couple of centuries from now, when the Eastern Seaboard is overpopulated and we have 40,000 acres of land being held in limbo by the Sweeney Foundation? Having this land being preserved in its natural splendor for future generations to enjoy is a worthy and noble goal, but what happens when we need housing more than we need forests? Granted, I know this is only a small portion of the land in North Carolina (62.5 sq. mi / ~53,800 sq. mi or roughly 0.12%), but if 2-3 billionaires every generation pay to keep land pristine and untouchable forever, it'll add up over the centuries. Just something to think about.
- totalZero 10y ago1. By an extension of your logic, NYC should bulldoze Central Park and replace it with massive housing developments to meet overwhelming rental demand in Manhattan. 2. You're not going to solve overpopulation, which is the result of a growth trend, by adding a constant amount of land to the equation. If you capitulate and give up the forest, then eventually you're left with overpopulation and no forests. 3. The literal answer to your question would be to develop elsewhere in the world, or in space. 4 We need forests too, for our health and sanity.
- Buge 10y agoOverpopulation is ending. Fertility rates are declining and are almost below replacement rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate
- coldnebo 10y agoAre you saying the process that creates risk is ending or that we are simply hitting a boundary condition (i.e. The edge of the Petri dish)? TFR is synthetic based on population behavior (I.e. Not solely intrinsic, such as genetic). My point is that there is a feedback-loop at work here. Educated women self-select against reproduction because the consequences are more obvious. But under-educated women still have high TFR-- they will need to hit hard boundaries (starvation, dieback). I don't think the process of overpopulation is ending, just clamped.
- TJTorola 10y agoHere is a rough idea of what 7,000 acres looks like. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2t4y1KUdvnlbUV1aW9CdHR1dFU https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2t4y1KUdvnlbUV1aW9CdHR1dF...
- kayoone 10y agoMaybe its the same reason as Sam Altman has for owning a remote patch of land so that in case of things going really bad, he can fly there because he has all the important stuff (water, food, antibiotics, gold etc) stored there.
- fb03 10y agoCan't expect less from the legend that created the programmable roguelike system ZZT. Long live to you, Tim!
- jamesblonde 10y agoThis is nice, but really it's pissing in the ocean, as somebody said. In Sweden, we have "the right to roam". The idea is that all land is accessible by anyone. Any citizen can walk on any private property, subject to not damaging it or coming to close to an abode. You have rights but also responsibilities. There's none of this nonsense of breaking your leg on somebody's property and then suing them (as is done in Ireland, where private property is king).
- pashapiro 10y agoI've found that undeveloped land in low-demand, rural areas tends to go for about $2,000/acre. It jumped out at me in the headline that the donation was about the same rate.