9 ms·

Education. It's what Obama was emphasizing his entire presidency. Those jobs are never coming back, and even more are going to be automated. The education gap b

Education. It's what Obama was emphasizing his entire presidency. Those jobs are never coming back, and even more are going to be automated. The education gap between rich and poor (and white and minority) is getting larger because of hoodlum-fearing mothers who support segregated neighborhoods and schools. Plus the poor-parent schools stay poor and the rich-parent schools stay rich. All of these factors together (which Democrats are actually interested in addressing) are growing an underclass of under-educated, unconnected people who can't make it in the world of the middle and upper class, so violence may become more frequent and jails will fill up. I doubt that the Trump administration and Congress have a plan that could come close to fixing this.

noobiemcfoob 10y ago
Education helps the young, at least as our systems are built. The people vocalizing their opinion by voting for Trump are beyond the age where education can be the key (old dogs and new tricks, etc.). There isn't a will to go to an educational program. There is a will to work and support yourself, but no work for them to do... /because we can't get our shit together and fund infrastructure programs //Not bitter.
- micaksica 10y ago
  > The people vocalizing their opinion by voting for Trump are beyond the age where education can be the key I hate seeing this meme. It is ageist and makes older people less likely to be hired for even their same jobs. Old people can still learn to do new things. The problem I see is that a lot of older people do not want to learn new things. Also, old people tend to have obligations such as family/child expenses, residence costs, etc. that they want to be compensated for even at an entry level. Rural conservatism has a lot to do with preserving tradition, that is, making sure things don't change from the old status quo you loved before.
  - noobiemcfoob 10y ago
    I didn't mean to imply that older people are incapable of learning. However, there are substantial barriers to that demographic to return to an education program precisely because it is a "return". Those barriers are far more social than anything else, yet they remain.
    - mrep 10y ago
      Economic ones too. Going to college after high school nets you 40 years of increased wages. Doing that at 40 only gets you 20.
  - pluma 10y ago
    I'm not sure which meme is more offensive. That old people can't learn or that old people don't want to learn. The real problem is that for many old people it's certain they'll never be able to get back to the status (financial, social and professional) they have now if they have to start all over again. As long as there is any promise of them being able to keep doing what they have experience in, that's what they'll aim for.
    - micaksica 10y ago
      I speak from anecdote here from my time traveling around middle America, not from an armchair, but I agree that the statement was probably a little too broad. > As long as there is any promise of them being able to keep doing what they have experience in, that's what they'll aim for. That's the real education that needs to happen. That job is gone and they're not going to get there. It's gone because the world has changed, the economy has changed. Holding out hope is holding that person back. I had to learn this early in my life, and now I live in two different countries depending on where I'm finding work.
      - pluma 10y ago
        The biggest tragedy in all this is that technological advance harms those it help the most by eliminating unnecessary work. For humankind it is progress, for individual humans it is ruin.
  - thesimpsons1022 10y ago
    i've heard them say themselves in west virginia that they're too old to learn and that many of the coal miners couldn't even read.
  - jpindar 10y ago
    >old people tend to have obligations such as family/child expenses, residence costs, etc. that they want to be compensated for even at an entry level. That is also ageist. I see it here on HN all the time - "companies don't want to hire older people because they want too much money".
- Delmania 10y ago
  There is never an age where education can't help you. It might not lead you into a new career, but it can broaden and deepen your understanding of the situation to help you make better choices. At it's, education could help the blue collar worker understand why his job is not coming back, and that he does need to do something else. Right now, those people believe Trump will someone bring those jobs back.
  - dv_dt 10y ago
    While I agree with the principle, I wonder if a harder economic calculation of ROI on rapidly inflating student tuitions bears that out. Higher education wouldn't seem to work out as it's already at the point that students at the beginning of their lives have a difficult time working off the debts acquired in their education - and certainly not in a way that doesn't dampen their finances in a serious way. Slicing time off the returns doesn't improve that calculation any. So you're left with occupational education - and I think that's a lot less clear ROI and employers very unwilling to actually train people.
  - cortesoft 10y ago
    Right, but these people need jobs, not a better understanding of the world. Understanding the world doesn't put food on your table.
  - zaroth 10y ago
    That's a very idealized view of "education". The value of spending 40 hours in any given class is highly variable based on the subject matter, teacher, and perhaps most of all the other students. Online Ed is trying to change this dynamic but there are many worthless classes one can take that cost more than they are worth. And I would guess the free community classes rank on the low-end of the subject matter/teacher/student spectrum.
  - kzisme 10y ago
    Today, for the first time I've heard someone speak about education being the key to Democrats trying to take over. Most young educated voters are left leaning - and I was told today that apparently it's because of the education brainwashing students to become government dependent...has anyone else heard about this before?
- rconti 10y ago
  Yeah. I expected the populist insurgency to come in the form of a progressive agenda, but this is the way it went instead. The problem is, people who used to make a livelihood don't want a minimum wage job, no matter how high the minimum wage. They're adults used to providing for themselves and possibly a family, for god's sake! They don't want some elementary retraining program to make them barely capable of doing a modern job. They want to feel productive and useful on their own, like most of us.
  - thesimpsons1022 10y ago
    do they not bear any responsibility for failing to gain useful skills or education? white people just feel entitled to the past where they could do nothing and be lazy and refuse to learn and still have a nice life.
- pluma 10y ago
  I'm German. My grandfather was a professional photographer. Pictures he shot covered the front pages of major magazines in my country. He wasn't a celebrity but he worked with several who were. At the peak of his career he realized technology would kill the industry with the quality of amateur photography improving and technical skills becoming less important, he would often compete with people with barely any talent and be undercut on price. It was still sustainable at the time but he was sure better cameras, film and postproduction processes would kill his business. He went back to school and became a homeopathy practitioner. My personal opinions of homeopathy aside, I have to acknowledge he was an expert at what he was doing and he was even regularly invited to give lectures. He kept doing that until the day he died, almost twenty years ago. It's never to late to switch career paths. The bigger problem in the US seems to be that it is amazingly hard to do so unless you've built up a fortune to cover the cost of doing so. Even someone approaching retirement age can start over and be productive if they have the chance, financial means, mental health and determination to do it.
  - itchyouch 10y ago
    That's interesting, but coming from the art side, I would argue that while the bottom would continue to fall, the middle & top-end still would need a professional. Running a photography business isn't just about taking the photos. The pre-production, post-production and business/marketing involved is what is necessary for a sustainable photography business. I think this challenge of the race to the bottom exists in virtually every industry.
    - pluma 10y ago
      Oh, sure. There are still professional photographers but the industry is nothing like it was when my grandfather started in his late teens (post-war Germany, a period of massive growth). And we're talking about a freelancer (with an assistant), not someone working for a large agency. The industry changed a lot for people like him. That nearly every industry developed like that is precisely on point: that your job is currently a safe bet doesn't mean it's something you'll be able to do all your life, no matter how good you are. There may never be a "Bitrot Belt" but the job market simply isn't static and never has been. The entire point of the anecdote was that he had a successful career doing one thing well past his thirties, things changed, and he switched to a completely unrelated career and was pretty good at that too. The details are just flavouring because it's a personal story. If you want something more blue collar: my father-in-law had a long career as truck driver, then changed paths to work in logistics/manufacturing. Plus I think he worked as a mechanic at some point. Sure it's mostly centred around working with vehicles but those are still three different jobs before he reached retiring age. The bigger problem in the US though might be location. The Rust Belt is dead because the jobs went away and there are not enough new jobs in the region to replace them. People actually have to uproot and relocate to find a new job and a new home -- that can be jarring.
- gaius 10y ago
  because we can't get our shit together and fund infrastructure programs In Trump's acceptance speech he explicitly mentions this: We are going to fix our inner cities and rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals. We’re going to rebuild our infrastructure, which will become, by the way, second to none. And we will put millions of our people to work as we rebuild it.
  - noobiemcfoob 10y ago
    I'll hold my breath :P
  - dugmartin 10y ago
    I'm just hoping the government becomes more efficient at completing those infrastructure projects. Here in (western) Massachusetts we have simple projects like replacing a 30' concrete bridge over a creek that take 9 to 12 months to complete. They setup Jersey barriers that funnel traffic down to one lane, rip up the barricaded side and then do no work on it. In the 1930's they were able to start and finish a 782' three span iron bridge in one year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_King_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_King_Bridge).
  - intopieces 10y ago
    And his plan for doing it requires widespread privatization. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/11/04/donald_trump_s_plan_to_privatize_america_s_roads_and_bridges.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/11/04/donald_trump_... Ask the residents of Central Texas about what happened when they privatized the toll system. Personal data leaks, false charges sent to collections, terrible customer service. It was only after widespread outcry for government oversight(!) by Republicans that anything got done about it.
  - rak00n 10y ago
    Considering he's a businessman with background in construction his self interest is visible.
- a_thro_away 10y ago
  Education, educated IS work, and profitable, but apparently not the kind of preferred work. Just wondering aloud, how will Mr Trump satisfy the wealthy, wall street, and the fiscally conservative to do prevailing-wage infrastructure? The skilled trades were always ready and could have been doing this all along if it was valued by congress. How has anything changed?
mc32 10y ago
You know, I used to think the same way --education. But Europe, Germany in particular, stresses education, and that has not saved them from having overqualified people and too few jobs for them. It also minimizes the fact that not all people have the aptitude to learn and obtain higher degrees. It's a race to the top and in that race there will always be people below who feel left out. So education can only offer so much --not all. To add, educated people without a job feel even worse than undereducated people who don't have a job because they believed education would insulate them from these issues when it might not.
- jlj 10y ago
  Education can mean vocational training too, not just university degrees. A plumber or electrician in Seattle can pull in 100k/year and they are booked out for weeks to months.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    That's partly because there's no mass, free vocational training for plumbers. If you tried to scale this up in practice, you'd quickly find that you don't need 3x the number of plumbers that exist now.
    - IanDrake 10y ago
      You assume the pie is static and that more mouths mean less pie for all. If there were twice the plumbers, the rate per hour would not be halved. There's demand that can't afford these services at the current rate.
      - smallnamespace 10y ago
        I'm sure that's true, but it still doesn't solve your employment issues, and you are just hurting wages for all existing plumbers. There are only about half a million plumbers in the US [1]. Even if you managed to triple the number, you're not making much of a dent in overall employment. [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-...
gwbas1c 10y ago
I believe in education, but it's not a panacea. No amount of education will help someone who just isn't cut out for a white-collar job.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  How do you know? Where's your evidence? Relate how you tried to "prove the null hypothesis."
- cpncrunch 10y ago
  We're not just talking about white collar jobs. We're also talking about skilled blue collar jobs.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  Elitism like this is part of the reason democrats lost this political cycle.
smrtinsert 10y ago
That is not what that population was voting for. They want their previous jobs back.
AlexB138 10y ago
> The education gap between rich and poor (and white and minority) is getting larger because of hoodlum-fearing mothers who support segregated neighborhoods and schools. I see this brought up a lot, as if those mothers are pearl clutching villains. Are you of the impression that hoodlums don't exist, or that they're not more common in poor communities? Or do you just take exception with people wanting what is best for their own children, at the expense of others? What argument would you make to those mothers that would convince them it is in their, or their children's, best interest to not seclude themselves away from poorer populations? Just to make it a bit clearer, this smacks of the exact same kind of thinking that was just dealt a blow in the election. Selfishness is human nature, and shaming people over it might make them quiet, but it won't make them agree with you. I'm far from a Trump supporter, but this kind of constant holier-than-thou thinking has to end or there will never be any semblance of unity in this country.
vkou 10y ago
Oversaturation through education isn't even the solution. We're looking at a future with not enough jobs. Cutting the working week to 30 hours, on the other hand...
- cpncrunch 10y ago
  That's not the case. Unemployment has been steadily dropping in recent years. The problem is that the new jobs require an education: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-r... http://www.businessinsider.com/gap-between-unemployment-among-educated-and-those-not-educate-2011-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/gap-between-unemployment-amon...
  - vkou 10y ago
    Unemployment has been steadily dropping, because more and more people are dropping out of the working economy - or entering the service industry. Those jobs offer little stability and poor pay.

noobiemcfoob 10y ago

Education helps the young, at least as our systems are built. The people vocalizing their opinion by voting for Trump are beyond the age where education can be the key (old dogs and new tricks, etc.). There isn't a will to go to an educational program. There is a will to work and support yourself, but no work for them to do... /because we can't get our shit together and fund infrastructure programs //Not bitter.

micaksica 10y ago
> The people vocalizing their opinion by voting for Trump are beyond the age where education can be the key I hate seeing this meme. It is ageist and makes older people less likely to be hired for even their same jobs. Old people can still learn to do new things. The problem I see is that a lot of older people do not want to learn new things. Also, old people tend to have obligations such as family/child expenses, residence costs, etc. that they want to be compensated for even at an entry level. Rural conservatism has a lot to do with preserving tradition, that is, making sure things don't change from the old status quo you loved before.
- noobiemcfoob 10y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that older people are incapable of learning. However, there are substantial barriers to that demographic to return to an education program precisely because it is a "return". Those barriers are far more social than anything else, yet they remain.
  - mrep 10y ago
    Economic ones too. Going to college after high school nets you 40 years of increased wages. Doing that at 40 only gets you 20.
- pluma 10y ago
  I'm not sure which meme is more offensive. That old people can't learn or that old people don't want to learn. The real problem is that for many old people it's certain they'll never be able to get back to the status (financial, social and professional) they have now if they have to start all over again. As long as there is any promise of them being able to keep doing what they have experience in, that's what they'll aim for.
  - micaksica 10y ago
    I speak from anecdote here from my time traveling around middle America, not from an armchair, but I agree that the statement was probably a little too broad. > As long as there is any promise of them being able to keep doing what they have experience in, that's what they'll aim for. That's the real education that needs to happen. That job is gone and they're not going to get there. It's gone because the world has changed, the economy has changed. Holding out hope is holding that person back. I had to learn this early in my life, and now I live in two different countries depending on where I'm finding work.
    - pluma 10y ago
      The biggest tragedy in all this is that technological advance harms those it help the most by eliminating unnecessary work. For humankind it is progress, for individual humans it is ruin.
- thesimpsons1022 10y ago
  i've heard them say themselves in west virginia that they're too old to learn and that many of the coal miners couldn't even read.
- jpindar 10y ago
  >old people tend to have obligations such as family/child expenses, residence costs, etc. that they want to be compensated for even at an entry level. That is also ageist. I see it here on HN all the time - "companies don't want to hire older people because they want too much money".
Delmania 10y ago
There is never an age where education can't help you. It might not lead you into a new career, but it can broaden and deepen your understanding of the situation to help you make better choices. At it's, education could help the blue collar worker understand why his job is not coming back, and that he does need to do something else. Right now, those people believe Trump will someone bring those jobs back.
- dv_dt 10y ago
  While I agree with the principle, I wonder if a harder economic calculation of ROI on rapidly inflating student tuitions bears that out. Higher education wouldn't seem to work out as it's already at the point that students at the beginning of their lives have a difficult time working off the debts acquired in their education - and certainly not in a way that doesn't dampen their finances in a serious way. Slicing time off the returns doesn't improve that calculation any. So you're left with occupational education - and I think that's a lot less clear ROI and employers very unwilling to actually train people.
- cortesoft 10y ago
  Right, but these people need jobs, not a better understanding of the world. Understanding the world doesn't put food on your table.
- zaroth 10y ago
  That's a very idealized view of "education". The value of spending 40 hours in any given class is highly variable based on the subject matter, teacher, and perhaps most of all the other students. Online Ed is trying to change this dynamic but there are many worthless classes one can take that cost more than they are worth. And I would guess the free community classes rank on the low-end of the subject matter/teacher/student spectrum.
- kzisme 10y ago
  Today, for the first time I've heard someone speak about education being the key to Democrats trying to take over. Most young educated voters are left leaning - and I was told today that apparently it's because of the education brainwashing students to become government dependent...has anyone else heard about this before?
rconti 10y ago
Yeah. I expected the populist insurgency to come in the form of a progressive agenda, but this is the way it went instead. The problem is, people who used to make a livelihood don't want a minimum wage job, no matter how high the minimum wage. They're adults used to providing for themselves and possibly a family, for god's sake! They don't want some elementary retraining program to make them barely capable of doing a modern job. They want to feel productive and useful on their own, like most of us.
- thesimpsons1022 10y ago
  do they not bear any responsibility for failing to gain useful skills or education? white people just feel entitled to the past where they could do nothing and be lazy and refuse to learn and still have a nice life.
pluma 10y ago
I'm German. My grandfather was a professional photographer. Pictures he shot covered the front pages of major magazines in my country. He wasn't a celebrity but he worked with several who were. At the peak of his career he realized technology would kill the industry with the quality of amateur photography improving and technical skills becoming less important, he would often compete with people with barely any talent and be undercut on price. It was still sustainable at the time but he was sure better cameras, film and postproduction processes would kill his business. He went back to school and became a homeopathy practitioner. My personal opinions of homeopathy aside, I have to acknowledge he was an expert at what he was doing and he was even regularly invited to give lectures. He kept doing that until the day he died, almost twenty years ago. It's never to late to switch career paths. The bigger problem in the US seems to be that it is amazingly hard to do so unless you've built up a fortune to cover the cost of doing so. Even someone approaching retirement age can start over and be productive if they have the chance, financial means, mental health and determination to do it.
- itchyouch 10y ago
  That's interesting, but coming from the art side, I would argue that while the bottom would continue to fall, the middle & top-end still would need a professional. Running a photography business isn't just about taking the photos. The pre-production, post-production and business/marketing involved is what is necessary for a sustainable photography business. I think this challenge of the race to the bottom exists in virtually every industry.
  - pluma 10y ago
    Oh, sure. There are still professional photographers but the industry is nothing like it was when my grandfather started in his late teens (post-war Germany, a period of massive growth). And we're talking about a freelancer (with an assistant), not someone working for a large agency. The industry changed a lot for people like him. That nearly every industry developed like that is precisely on point: that your job is currently a safe bet doesn't mean it's something you'll be able to do all your life, no matter how good you are. There may never be a "Bitrot Belt" but the job market simply isn't static and never has been. The entire point of the anecdote was that he had a successful career doing one thing well past his thirties, things changed, and he switched to a completely unrelated career and was pretty good at that too. The details are just flavouring because it's a personal story. If you want something more blue collar: my father-in-law had a long career as truck driver, then changed paths to work in logistics/manufacturing. Plus I think he worked as a mechanic at some point. Sure it's mostly centred around working with vehicles but those are still three different jobs before he reached retiring age. The bigger problem in the US though might be location. The Rust Belt is dead because the jobs went away and there are not enough new jobs in the region to replace them. People actually have to uproot and relocate to find a new job and a new home -- that can be jarring.
gaius 10y ago
because we can't get our shit together and fund infrastructure programs In Trump's acceptance speech he explicitly mentions this: We are going to fix our inner cities and rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals. We’re going to rebuild our infrastructure, which will become, by the way, second to none. And we will put millions of our people to work as we rebuild it.
- noobiemcfoob 10y ago
  I'll hold my breath :P
- dugmartin 10y ago
  I'm just hoping the government becomes more efficient at completing those infrastructure projects. Here in (western) Massachusetts we have simple projects like replacing a 30' concrete bridge over a creek that take 9 to 12 months to complete. They setup Jersey barriers that funnel traffic down to one lane, rip up the barricaded side and then do no work on it. In the 1930's they were able to start and finish a 782' three span iron bridge in one year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_King_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_King_Bridge).
- intopieces 10y ago
  And his plan for doing it requires widespread privatization. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/11/04/donald_trump_s_plan_to_privatize_america_s_roads_and_bridges.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/11/04/donald_trump_... Ask the residents of Central Texas about what happened when they privatized the toll system. Personal data leaks, false charges sent to collections, terrible customer service. It was only after widespread outcry for government oversight(!) by Republicans that anything got done about it.
- rak00n 10y ago
  Considering he's a businessman with background in construction his self interest is visible.
a_thro_away 10y ago
Education, educated IS work, and profitable, but apparently not the kind of preferred work. Just wondering aloud, how will Mr Trump satisfy the wealthy, wall street, and the fiscally conservative to do prevailing-wage infrastructure? The skilled trades were always ready and could have been doing this all along if it was valued by congress. How has anything changed?

mc32 10y ago

You know, I used to think the same way --education. But Europe, Germany in particular, stresses education, and that has not saved them from having overqualified people and too few jobs for them. It also minimizes the fact that not all people have the aptitude to learn and obtain higher degrees. It's a race to the top and in that race there will always be people below who feel left out. So education can only offer so much --not all. To add, educated people without a job feel even worse than undereducated people who don't have a job because they believed education would insulate them from these issues when it might not.

jlj 10y ago
Education can mean vocational training too, not just university degrees. A plumber or electrician in Seattle can pull in 100k/year and they are booked out for weeks to months.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  That's partly because there's no mass, free vocational training for plumbers. If you tried to scale this up in practice, you'd quickly find that you don't need 3x the number of plumbers that exist now.
  - IanDrake 10y ago
    You assume the pie is static and that more mouths mean less pie for all. If there were twice the plumbers, the rate per hour would not be halved. There's demand that can't afford these services at the current rate.
    - smallnamespace 10y ago
      I'm sure that's true, but it still doesn't solve your employment issues, and you are just hurting wages for all existing plumbers. There are only about half a million plumbers in the US [1]. Even if you managed to triple the number, you're not making much of a dent in overall employment. [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-...

gwbas1c 10y ago

I believe in education, but it's not a panacea. No amount of education will help someone who just isn't cut out for a white-collar job.

stcredzero 10y ago
How do you know? Where's your evidence? Relate how you tried to "prove the null hypothesis."
cpncrunch 10y ago
We're not just talking about white collar jobs. We're also talking about skilled blue collar jobs.
antisthenes 10y ago
Elitism like this is part of the reason democrats lost this political cycle.

smrtinsert 10y ago

That is not what that population was voting for. They want their previous jobs back.

AlexB138 10y ago

> The education gap between rich and poor (and white and minority) is getting larger because of hoodlum-fearing mothers who support segregated neighborhoods and schools. I see this brought up a lot, as if those mothers are pearl clutching villains. Are you of the impression that hoodlums don't exist, or that they're not more common in poor communities? Or do you just take exception with people wanting what is best for their own children, at the expense of others? What argument would you make to those mothers that would convince them it is in their, or their children's, best interest to not seclude themselves away from poorer populations? Just to make it a bit clearer, this smacks of the exact same kind of thinking that was just dealt a blow in the election. Selfishness is human nature, and shaming people over it might make them quiet, but it won't make them agree with you. I'm far from a Trump supporter, but this kind of constant holier-than-thou thinking has to end or there will never be any semblance of unity in this country.

vkou 10y ago

Oversaturation through education isn't even the solution. We're looking at a future with not enough jobs. Cutting the working week to 30 hours, on the other hand...

cpncrunch 10y ago
That's not the case. Unemployment has been steadily dropping in recent years. The problem is that the new jobs require an education: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-r... http://www.businessinsider.com/gap-between-unemployment-among-educated-and-those-not-educate-2011-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/gap-between-unemployment-amon...
- vkou 10y ago
  Unemployment has been steadily dropping, because more and more people are dropping out of the working economy - or entering the service industry. Those jobs offer little stability and poor pay.