7 ms·

London isn't on the coast. What you're looking at here is not coasts vs non-coasts even if American maps might make it look that way. It's cities vs everywhere

London isn't on the coast. What you're looking at here is not coasts vs non-coasts even if American maps might make it look that way. It's cities vs everywhere else. It just so happens that in America most of the biggest/best known cities are on the coasts.

pjc50 10y ago
London is a port with at least four international airports. It's the most outward-facing internationalist city in the UK.
- wfunction 10y ago
  But I think the point was that it's a (large) city.
- joosters 10y ago
  London is a port Have you visited London's "docklands"?
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Yes, that's where the airport is :) Should probably have said "was" a port, but the point was that it doesn't really count as "inland".
- michaelt 10y ago
  four international airports If the London city-state's boundaries are determined by the Brexit vote, remember that Hillingdon (Heathrow), Uttlesford (Stanstead), Crawley (Gatwick) all voted to leave. Only Newham (London City Airport) was majority Remain.
the_duke 10y ago
Excellent observation. It definitely is big cities versus rural areas rather than coast vs not coast. It just so happens that most big cities are on or closer to the coast (or along large rivers in earlier history). It made travel and trade much easier.
dangravell 10y ago
Strictly speaking it is; the coast runs to somewhere in the SW suburbs from memory.
lordnacho 10y ago
That's right, it's town vs country. Election maps that drill into districts will show you the same in any country. Basically anywhere with a sports team (they play in cities) tends to be "leftie" and everywhere else not.
- rounce 10y ago
  Maybe for the US, not for everywhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_System
  - lordnacho 10y ago
    And the cities with the higher ranked clubs are bigger: London, Manchester, Liverpool, all have multiple Premier league teams. Birmingham used to have a couple. Glasgow in the Scottish league has a couple. You will find the same in all of Europe. Top teams are based in Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Munich, Milan, Dortmund, Amsterdam, and so on. Note that there are several teams whose names are suburbs rather than the main city.
mcintyre1994 10y ago
And Wales has 3 sides of coast. The coast/non-coast analogy clearly doesn't work in the UK.
cmdkeen 10y ago
Scotland also isn't cosmopolitan, certainly not on the scale of London. It hasn't had anything close to the scale of immigration that other parts of the UK have had. It has deep seated issues with sectarianism rather than race. There are parallels with Brexit, though I don't think many of the underlying causes are the same. I very much agree that those who play identity politics and deal in absolutes - "you must agree with me or you are an X" - are being burned an electorate who have heard that line a few times too often. The election in France with Marine La Pen does have the potential for another Trump like upset - the next one to watch.
- arethuza 10y ago
  Sectarianism in Scotland was and continues to be a long running backlash in some areas against Irish immigration.
  - walshemj 10y ago
    "was" sorry its still an issue people still get knifed at old firm games.
    - arethuza 10y ago
      Edit: I didn't mean to imply that it's not a problem now - but it's no means as big a problem as it used to be (and I have direct experience through family members of horrific bigotry towards and to Catholics in Scotland).
      - smcl 10y ago
        Funny thing about the "people still get knifed at Old Firm games" comment itself is that it raises something that isn't really a problem so much anymore (Rangers/Celtic hadn't met in four years until September, where there was one arrest out of ~60,000 fans) and misses the stuff that really is an issue - areas which are still deeply segregated + gang violence split along these lines, provocative/offensive songs, flags and banners used by both sides at the football But as you said - it's nothing like what our grandparents' generation would have experienced, or what went on in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.
mhandley 10y ago
In Britain, at least, I'm not even sure it's cities vs everywhere else. The large cities of the Midlands and North (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle) went for Brexit much more than anyone expected. It's more a case of new economy vs old economy. That's not really a surprise is it? People in places that benefit from globalization vote in favour of globalization; people in places that have seen manufacturing or rural jobs vanish in the face of globalization are reacting against these changes. In this light, both Brexit and Trump, which both promise quick fixes, are not really a surprise. Unfortunately there are no quick fixes - as technology increases, so must specialization. There's no going back - that ship has sailed.
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  Manchester voted 60% to Remain. The other districts except Trafford mostly voted Leave. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36617781 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36617781 I suspect what we're seeing here isn't actually even cities vs everywhere else. I suspect this correlation is obfuscating the real connecting variable which is age. Young people live in cities. As they get married, buy houses and have children they move out into the suburbs. Young people tend to vote left wing and be more supportive of the 'elite'. Older people tend to be more conservative and, apparently, more willing to give the 'elite' a good kicking.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    > Young people tend to vote left wing and be more supportive of the 'elite'. I think we need to unpack that a bit more and deal with this "left wing elite" myth. If I remember rightly, people have been digging for correlating variables and found that the best one for Brexit is .. support for the death penalty. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36803544 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36803544
    - notahacker 10y ago
      tbh the "support for the death penalty" correlation is pretty consistent with the view of young social liberals vs older social conservatives. It's a pretty good proxy variable for those groups. (I doubt many Leave voters even realised they needed to vote leave the EU to allow for the possibility of peacetime death penalties; it certainly wasn't a campaign issue!)
benjiweber 10y ago
While I agree with your point about cities. London is on the tidal stretch of the thames, and the second biggest port in the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_ports_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_ports_in_Europ...
galfarragem 10y ago
Instead of correlating voting trends with coast vs non-coasts, it's more correct to correlate them with newbies vs non-newbies. Newbies just happen to gather on places with more opportunities and these places often happen near the coast. Simplifying: non-newbies feel that newbies are hurting them more than helping.
krakensden 10y ago
It does have access to a major waterway though. Navigable rivers are almost as good as a sea port.

pjc50 10y ago

London is a port with at least four international airports. It's the most outward-facing internationalist city in the UK.

wfunction 10y ago
But I think the point was that it's a (large) city.
joosters 10y ago
London is a port Have you visited London's "docklands"?
- pjc50 10y ago
  Yes, that's where the airport is :) Should probably have said "was" a port, but the point was that it doesn't really count as "inland".
michaelt 10y ago
four international airports If the London city-state's boundaries are determined by the Brexit vote, remember that Hillingdon (Heathrow), Uttlesford (Stanstead), Crawley (Gatwick) all voted to leave. Only Newham (London City Airport) was majority Remain.

the_duke 10y ago

Excellent observation. It definitely is big cities versus rural areas rather than coast vs not coast. It just so happens that most big cities are on or closer to the coast (or along large rivers in earlier history). It made travel and trade much easier.

dangravell 10y ago

Strictly speaking it is; the coast runs to somewhere in the SW suburbs from memory.

lordnacho 10y ago

That's right, it's town vs country. Election maps that drill into districts will show you the same in any country. Basically anywhere with a sports team (they play in cities) tends to be "leftie" and everywhere else not.

rounce 10y ago
Maybe for the US, not for everywhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_System
- lordnacho 10y ago
  And the cities with the higher ranked clubs are bigger: London, Manchester, Liverpool, all have multiple Premier league teams. Birmingham used to have a couple. Glasgow in the Scottish league has a couple. You will find the same in all of Europe. Top teams are based in Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Munich, Milan, Dortmund, Amsterdam, and so on. Note that there are several teams whose names are suburbs rather than the main city.

mcintyre1994 10y ago

And Wales has 3 sides of coast. The coast/non-coast analogy clearly doesn't work in the UK.

cmdkeen 10y ago

Scotland also isn't cosmopolitan, certainly not on the scale of London. It hasn't had anything close to the scale of immigration that other parts of the UK have had. It has deep seated issues with sectarianism rather than race. There are parallels with Brexit, though I don't think many of the underlying causes are the same. I very much agree that those who play identity politics and deal in absolutes - "you must agree with me or you are an X" - are being burned an electorate who have heard that line a few times too often. The election in France with Marine La Pen does have the potential for another Trump like upset - the next one to watch.

arethuza 10y ago
Sectarianism in Scotland was and continues to be a long running backlash in some areas against Irish immigration.
- walshemj 10y ago
  "was" sorry its still an issue people still get knifed at old firm games.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Edit: I didn't mean to imply that it's not a problem now - but it's no means as big a problem as it used to be (and I have direct experience through family members of horrific bigotry towards and to Catholics in Scotland).
    - smcl 10y ago
      Funny thing about the "people still get knifed at Old Firm games" comment itself is that it raises something that isn't really a problem so much anymore (Rangers/Celtic hadn't met in four years until September, where there was one arrest out of ~60,000 fans) and misses the stuff that really is an issue - areas which are still deeply segregated + gang violence split along these lines, provocative/offensive songs, flags and banners used by both sides at the football But as you said - it's nothing like what our grandparents' generation would have experienced, or what went on in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.

mhandley 10y ago

In Britain, at least, I'm not even sure it's cities vs everywhere else. The large cities of the Midlands and North (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle) went for Brexit much more than anyone expected. It's more a case of new economy vs old economy. That's not really a surprise is it? People in places that benefit from globalization vote in favour of globalization; people in places that have seen manufacturing or rural jobs vanish in the face of globalization are reacting against these changes. In this light, both Brexit and Trump, which both promise quick fixes, are not really a surprise. Unfortunately there are no quick fixes - as technology increases, so must specialization. There's no going back - that ship has sailed.

zigzigzag 10y ago
Manchester voted 60% to Remain. The other districts except Trafford mostly voted Leave. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36617781 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36617781 I suspect what we're seeing here isn't actually even cities vs everywhere else. I suspect this correlation is obfuscating the real connecting variable which is age. Young people live in cities. As they get married, buy houses and have children they move out into the suburbs. Young people tend to vote left wing and be more supportive of the 'elite'. Older people tend to be more conservative and, apparently, more willing to give the 'elite' a good kicking.
- pjc50 10y ago
  > Young people tend to vote left wing and be more supportive of the 'elite'. I think we need to unpack that a bit more and deal with this "left wing elite" myth. If I remember rightly, people have been digging for correlating variables and found that the best one for Brexit is .. support for the death penalty. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36803544 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36803544
  - notahacker 10y ago
    tbh the "support for the death penalty" correlation is pretty consistent with the view of young social liberals vs older social conservatives. It's a pretty good proxy variable for those groups. (I doubt many Leave voters even realised they needed to vote leave the EU to allow for the possibility of peacetime death penalties; it certainly wasn't a campaign issue!)

benjiweber 10y ago

While I agree with your point about cities. London is on the tidal stretch of the thames, and the second biggest port in the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_ports_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_ports_in_Europ...

galfarragem 10y ago

Instead of correlating voting trends with coast vs non-coasts, it's more correct to correlate them with newbies vs non-newbies. Newbies just happen to gather on places with more opportunities and these places often happen near the coast. Simplifying: non-newbies feel that newbies are hurting them more than helping.

krakensden 10y ago

It does have access to a major waterway though. Navigable rivers are almost as good as a sea port.