4 ms·

I've never seen it happen successfully. I've done it at least half a dozen times in my career. I was told "the maximum we can give is a $7k raise since there i

by byoung2 10y ago

I've never seen it happen successfully. I've done it at least half a dozen times in my career. I was told "the maximum we can give is a $7k raise since there is a fixed pool for raises in the department." I said if I quit and you have to replace me, not only will you have to hire 2 devs to replace me (as I pulled dev and sysops duty) and pay them market salaries, you will have to pay a recruiter 20-30%. They still wouldn't budge, so I got a counteroffer for $30k more than I was making, plus some other perks. They not only matched, they also matched for other devs on the team. Do not fall for that fixed budget BS...the pie can always get bigger.

cgore 10y ago
It's often a bit true though. I bet your direct manager didn't have that authority himself and had to go up higher and justify it to either his boss or his boss's boss.
- byoung2 10y ago
  That is true but in this last case I became that manager and suddenly there was no such set pool for raises.
_puk 10y ago
Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone?
- byoung2 10y ago
  Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone? It worked out well for all parties, depending on how you look at it. Management was a little out of touch with market rate salaries, since they weren't tech guys (once the CEO referred to engineering as "black magic" since he didn't understand it). So while they were shocked at an offer I was able to get in a few days, they understood that engineers are in an enviable position in the job market. This was 2013 and I was making $110k in Los Angeles, and they were offering $117k. The counteroffer was for $130k plus perks valued at about $10k (401k plus match, extra week of vacation, etc). So they matched at $140k. I stayed there and after a year I got a promotion to director of engineering and a raise to $155k + up to $25k bonus. A few months later I renegotiated to have the bonus removed and the base salary increased to $175k. During the time after I pulled my stunt I expanded on a pet project using sentiment analysis and that became the core of a new product that is now 40% of their revenue. In December 2015 I left to work as a remote freelancer, which would have happened eventually regardless.
  - jimbokun 10y ago
    Thank you for including real numbers. Helps understand what's possible or realistic. "During the time after I pulled my stunt I expanded on a pet project using sentiment analysis and that became the core of a new product that is now 40% of their revenue." This is the most important number you give! Very important to understand the need to point to concrete revenue generated (or costs cut) when negotiating a raise. Otherwise, management will probably just call your bluff.
    - nikatwork 10y ago
      > management will probably just call your bluff. You don't need some enormous revenue or productivity win on the board to ask for a raise (although it helps). It just needs to be less hassle for them to pay you a raise than to replace you. In most cases it's really that simple.
  - bcbrown 10y ago
    > A few months later I renegotiated to have the bonus removed and the base salary increased to $175k. What was your negotiating strategy here? Did you just say "I'm going to make the bonus anyway, please let's just write it in now", or was it more "I might leave if we can't work this out"?
branchless 10y ago
That's the puppy. You have to have a card, you have to be willing to play it, and they have to believe you are willing to play it. And they have to value you. That is base camp for negotiating.
cel1ne 10y ago
Same here. If you're somewhat good, getting a new developer will always be expensive and it is a risk for the company. The new developer needs to familiarise himself with everything and what happens if he's actually worse than you? Of course no sane boss will ever tell you this. Just nag them and don't accept "no" for an answer.
- byoung2 10y ago
  As director of engineering, I gladly gave generous raises to retain people, because it cost way more in lost productivity to read resumes, interview candidates, and onboard new devs, not to mention the $30k check you have to write to the recruiter. And you're right, one bad hire can be disastrous...apparently the guy that replaced me wanted to prove his value by rewriting the whole architecture. So they spent a whole year doing that which I'm sure is much cleaner than the original under the hood, but to the end user, it is not apparent.
  - Can_Not 10y ago
    > apparently the guy that replaced me wanted to prove his value by rewriting the whole architecture. So they spent a whole year doing that which I'm sure is much cleaner than the original under the hood, but to the end user, it is not apparent Anecdote: We had a guy show up, he claimed that we had to do a rewrite. We spent 2 years catching up to the base product. Complete waste of time, had to fire him 1 year into the rewrite. Gained no value from it. He was simply too arrogant, vain, and/or unskilled to bother to read other people's code.
    - zo1 10y ago
      What position did he come in as? Seems awfully odd to have a new-hire making such a decision. From the sounds of it, he effectively tied up resources for almost a year before being pushed out? There are two problems there, from what I can ascertain: 1. The guy wanting to rewrite your product. 2. Management that allowed him to do so without proper motivation and/or cost-benefit analysis.
redwards510 10y ago
> They still wouldn't budge, so I got a counteroffer for $30k more than I was making, Getting a counteroffer is not the same as what the OP is suggesting. Using another job offer as a leverage for a raise is not recommended by most experts. Just google "Should i accept a counteroffer?". Mainly because you create bad blood at your current employer and you have to be ready to follow through on your threat. Also, that employer you just pushed right to the edge of hiring you is going to be mad you were just using them. There are entire top 10 lists about why it is a bad idea! I have pleaded the entire "it would cost you thousands to train a new guy, and you will have to pay him to start what i'm asking for right now!" line to bosses before. They are unmoved by financial arguments. It's as if management just decided to take a hard line against "persuasive" raises across the board, nevermind the damage it costs to lose talent.
- Can_Not 10y ago
  I've read that, are you sure it's not a scare tactic by recruiters?
- JamesBarney 10y ago
  Just as a head up, most of the people who write answers to "Should I accept a counteroffer?" are recruiters who next mortgage payment is contingent on you not accepting the counteroffer.
- toennisforst 10y ago
  Of the top five results Google gives me, all are by recruitment agencies who have a strong incentive not to loose candidates and their commission. The notion that accepting counteroffers is always hurtful to your career is contested to say the least: See this [1] HN discussion from about a month ago. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12624112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12624112
- op00to 10y ago
  When considering this tactic, ask yourself one question: "Do I work for psycopaths, or for (relatively) rational human beings?" If rational, go ahead and let them know the market rate of your labor by showing a competing offer, knowing full well that you're ready to take it and move on. It's only business. If you work for psychopaths, just take the offer and leave because fuck that shit.

by byoung2 10y ago

cgore 10y ago

It's often a bit true though. I bet your direct manager didn't have that authority himself and had to go up higher and justify it to either his boss or his boss's boss.

byoung2 10y ago
That is true but in this last case I became that manager and suddenly there was no such set pool for raises.

_puk 10y ago

Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone?

byoung2 10y ago
Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone? It worked out well for all parties, depending on how you look at it. Management was a little out of touch with market rate salaries, since they weren't tech guys (once the CEO referred to engineering as "black magic" since he didn't understand it). So while they were shocked at an offer I was able to get in a few days, they understood that engineers are in an enviable position in the job market. This was 2013 and I was making $110k in Los Angeles, and they were offering $117k. The counteroffer was for $130k plus perks valued at about $10k (401k plus match, extra week of vacation, etc). So they matched at $140k. I stayed there and after a year I got a promotion to director of engineering and a raise to $155k + up to $25k bonus. A few months later I renegotiated to have the bonus removed and the base salary increased to $175k. During the time after I pulled my stunt I expanded on a pet project using sentiment analysis and that became the core of a new product that is now 40% of their revenue. In December 2015 I left to work as a remote freelancer, which would have happened eventually regardless.
- jimbokun 10y ago
  Thank you for including real numbers. Helps understand what's possible or realistic. "During the time after I pulled my stunt I expanded on a pet project using sentiment analysis and that became the core of a new product that is now 40% of their revenue." This is the most important number you give! Very important to understand the need to point to concrete revenue generated (or costs cut) when negotiating a raise. Otherwise, management will probably just call your bluff.
  - nikatwork 10y ago
    > management will probably just call your bluff. You don't need some enormous revenue or productivity win on the board to ask for a raise (although it helps). It just needs to be less hassle for them to pay you a raise than to replace you. In most cases it's really that simple.
- bcbrown 10y ago
  > A few months later I renegotiated to have the bonus removed and the base salary increased to $175k. What was your negotiating strategy here? Did you just say "I'm going to make the bonus anyway, please let's just write it in now", or was it more "I might leave if we can't work this out"?

branchless 10y ago

That's the puppy. You have to have a card, you have to be willing to play it, and they have to believe you are willing to play it. And they have to value you. That is base camp for negotiating.

cel1ne 10y ago

Same here. If you're somewhat good, getting a new developer will always be expensive and it is a risk for the company. The new developer needs to familiarise himself with everything and what happens if he's actually worse than you? Of course no sane boss will ever tell you this. Just nag them and don't accept "no" for an answer.

byoung2 10y ago
As director of engineering, I gladly gave generous raises to retain people, because it cost way more in lost productivity to read resumes, interview candidates, and onboard new devs, not to mention the $30k check you have to write to the recruiter. And you're right, one bad hire can be disastrous...apparently the guy that replaced me wanted to prove his value by rewriting the whole architecture. So they spent a whole year doing that which I'm sure is much cleaner than the original under the hood, but to the end user, it is not apparent.
- Can_Not 10y ago
  > apparently the guy that replaced me wanted to prove his value by rewriting the whole architecture. So they spent a whole year doing that which I'm sure is much cleaner than the original under the hood, but to the end user, it is not apparent Anecdote: We had a guy show up, he claimed that we had to do a rewrite. We spent 2 years catching up to the base product. Complete waste of time, had to fire him 1 year into the rewrite. Gained no value from it. He was simply too arrogant, vain, and/or unskilled to bother to read other people's code.
  - zo1 10y ago
    What position did he come in as? Seems awfully odd to have a new-hire making such a decision. From the sounds of it, he effectively tied up resources for almost a year before being pushed out? There are two problems there, from what I can ascertain: 1. The guy wanting to rewrite your product. 2. Management that allowed him to do so without proper motivation and/or cost-benefit analysis.

redwards510 10y ago

> They still wouldn't budge, so I got a counteroffer for $30k more than I was making, Getting a counteroffer is not the same as what the OP is suggesting. Using another job offer as a leverage for a raise is not recommended by most experts. Just google "Should i accept a counteroffer?". Mainly because you create bad blood at your current employer and you have to be ready to follow through on your threat. Also, that employer you just pushed right to the edge of hiring you is going to be mad you were just using them. There are entire top 10 lists about why it is a bad idea! I have pleaded the entire "it would cost you thousands to train a new guy, and you will have to pay him to start what i'm asking for right now!" line to bosses before. They are unmoved by financial arguments. It's as if management just decided to take a hard line against "persuasive" raises across the board, nevermind the damage it costs to lose talent.

Can_Not 10y ago
I've read that, are you sure it's not a scare tactic by recruiters?
JamesBarney 10y ago
Just as a head up, most of the people who write answers to "Should I accept a counteroffer?" are recruiters who next mortgage payment is contingent on you not accepting the counteroffer.
toennisforst 10y ago
Of the top five results Google gives me, all are by recruitment agencies who have a strong incentive not to loose candidates and their commission. The notion that accepting counteroffers is always hurtful to your career is contested to say the least: See this [1] HN discussion from about a month ago. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12624112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12624112
op00to 10y ago
When considering this tactic, ask yourself one question: "Do I work for psycopaths, or for (relatively) rational human beings?" If rational, go ahead and let them know the market rate of your labor by showing a competing offer, knowing full well that you're ready to take it and move on. It's only business. If you work for psychopaths, just take the offer and leave because fuck that shit.