4 ms·

I was raised going to church but stopped in college, and I really miss the community. There's absolutely nothing like it that I've found in the secular world. I

I was raised going to church but stopped in college, and I really miss the community. There's absolutely nothing like it that I've found in the secular world. It almost makes me want to 'fake it' and join a church again, just to be around such kind and welcoming people so often. And it's not just the social part of the community, or the moral lessons, although I liked both of those things - a church gives you an entire framework for your life. What's a secular wedding? A secular funeral? How do your kids get involved in the community outside of the public school system (Boy Scouts is hardly secular) and how do you celebrate their coming of age? What are your standing plans for Wednesday night and Sunday morning? We have to reinvent all these things from scratch when we're not involved with a church, and people do that, but I've never seen such an in-depth and positive out-of-the-box experience as what a church provides. They've been optimizing this stuff for literally millennia. And I think that society is ripe for a group that will provide all of this, while not also trying to tell us about spirits doing magic tricks. And if you think about it that way, then the "this is where the world comes from" part of religion is almost a sideshow to the "here's a community and framework for your life" part, and yet it's what people focus on and what turns people away.

ivv 10y ago
This is what gyms have become for many. I remember seeing a graph showing the decline in church attendance coinciding with the rise in gym memberships.
- farnsworth 10y ago
  I think that gyms can scratch a certain itch in that arena, but aren't nearly as comprehensive as what a church provides. Also I hoped for that when I started at a small yoga studio, but nobody really talked to anybody else there, as far as I saw, and I didn't make any lasting connections.
  - ldarcyftw 10y ago
    A small yoga/acro studio I attended had after-class snacks and Saturday/Sunday activities. It depends on the owner level of involvement I assume.
gaius 10y ago
There was an atheist church in London but it fell apart over internal "more-atheist-than-thou" squabbles in a matter of weeks. Meanwhile there are ordinary churches in London that are centuries old...
- f_allwein 10y ago
  There is still the Sunady Assembly, in London and other places: http://www.sundayassembly.com http://www.sundayassembly.com
- 794CD01 10y ago
  Plenty of religions have fallen apart due to internal squabbling too, often very violently. There's a lot of survivorship bias here.
vertex-four 10y ago
Interestingly, and rather off-topic, many LGBTQ+ people, polyamorous people, and people who generally don't fit into what society prescribes, have to deal with all of these questions right now anyway - along with even more questions like "what is a relationship?" or "how do I present myself at work?". I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer to many of these questions, I don't think there can be.
- Taek 10y ago
  That's sort of the point of a church. It gives you frameworks did answering those questions and a community of people of all ages to compare notes with. Some religious institutions provide strict, rigid answers, and others are more flexible. Most I would say have fallen at least somewhat behind the times, especially as modern society finds it more difficult to accept that God exists.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    Sure, but the fact of the matter is that any framework will only possibly apply to some subset of the population.
zmb_ 10y ago
It's not like the various Christian churches invented those frameworks from scratch either. They are assimilated and developed from existing practices. The church has no monopoly over these practices. The secular community can take -- and has taken -- these practices and develop them into a secular framework. For example, my wedding, and those of most of my friends, were secular. They were very much similar to the religious weddings in my culture, but the official part was done in front of a judge instead of a priest.
icebraining 10y ago
Boy Scouts is hardly secular In my (European) country, we have two groups of Scouts, one aligned with the Catholic Church, and one secular. It seems some people are trying to do the same in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigators_USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigators_USA
jacalata 10y ago
Unitarian Univeraalists are exactly this, as far as I understand it: http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles
- brightsize 10y ago
  I was going to mention the UUs as well. Here in Spokane we've a sizable UU "church", and its leader is a self-proclaimed atheist. They have a very large physical facility and there's always something going on. http://uuspokane.org/WP2/ http://uuspokane.org/WP2/ A somewhat similar organization: http://www.unity.org/ http://www.unity.org/ It's based just outside of KC at Unity Village and I can highly recommend a visit if you're in the area. The site is beautiful and an incredibly peaceful place. I'm an atheist so I can't speak for any of the religious or quasi-religious beliefs of the two entities but they definitely have an established social infrastructure.
  - farnsworth 10y ago
    I experimented with a couple UU churches and was disappointed. They seemed to attract a lot of people with a "spirituality" that didn't fit with what I wanted. Maybe just the places I tried. Wiccans, people greeting at the door with "the sky-mother is smiling upon us today!", etc. All nice people though. It made me ask, would I want a group to be totally accepting in that you can believe whatever you want, or a group with a little more active skepticism?
    - colanderman 10y ago
      The thing is, those are the people you're looking for! The ones who reject (or are rejected by) mainstream religion, but desire a welcoming community atmosphere, they end up at UU churches. If you find Wiccans and sky-children there, that's because they're present in your community, and sought out the church for probably roughly the same reasons as you. Who better to form a community with than nice people with whom you might not otherwise interact?
Taek 10y ago
Definitely agree on this one, to such an extent that I don't expect someone who's never been a part of a church community to understand that they are missing. Sort of affirmed by the guy who thinks a public gym is an approximate replacement. Church is a place where they help you figure out how to live your life. You learn about family. You learn about money. You learn about grief and loss. You share your own insecurities and learn about the insecurities of the others in your community. We would sit down once a week for about 90 minutes in a group of ~7 and try to apply lessons (moral, financial, social, etc.) to our lives. I'd love to see an analog spring up in the tech community.
bluedino 10y ago
>> What are your standing plans for Wednesday night and Sunday morning? Whatever the hell I feel like doing. It's nice not having to attend service two days a week (and twice on one of those days) Churches can be full of the most hypocritical, judgemental, and gossipy people.
- justinkramp 10y ago
  "Churches can be full of the most hypocritical, judgemental, and gossipy people." So in other words, humans. They are full of humans.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    most hypocritical, judgemental, and gossipy people i.e, humans with those attributes more than the average human
MichaelGG 10y ago
I'm quite against religion but agree somewhat. But secular weddings? I've not been to a whole lot of weddings, but the secular ones have been qualitatively better. The ceremony seems planned around the actual people wanting to express their love and commitment, not the (generally boring) rites of people going before a god. A sermon or mass seems just so out of place. Or maybe it's just Christian-type ones that get it wrong. The secular weddings had a feeling that every minute was purposeful, that there wasn't any going through ceremony to "get to the good stuff".
- farnsworth 10y ago
  If you're religious, then the ceremony is the "good stuff". It's meaningful. Your friends, siblings, parents, their parents, and their parents probably were married to a similar ceremony. It's about community, not individualism.
GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
>Boy Scouts is hardly secular Scouts is pretty secular around here. At least my troop was. Never a mention of religion, really.
majewsky 10y ago
> What's a secular wedding? A secular funeral? How do your kids get involved in the community outside of the public school system (Boy Scouts is hardly secular) and how do you celebrate their coming of age? What are your standing plans for Wednesday night and Sunday morning? This sounds like you live in a region where the majority of people are religious. I live in East Germany, where the majority of people don't belong to any church. Consequently, all of the things that you mentioned exist here: * A secular wedding consists of a ceremony wherein a state-appointed official solemnizes the marriage (basically like the wedding service without the prayers and the singing), followed by the usual reception. * A secular funeral is basically the same, a funeral service without the religious parts. The last time I attended a funeral, I was 4 years old, so I cannot comment on this, but I imagine that a secular funeral would focus more on the history of the person to remember, rather than on the religious interpretation of the event. * There is a secular coming-of-age ceremony called Jugendweihe [1]. * There are clubs etc. that organize activities for children, they're just secular. * "Standing plans for Wednesday ngiht and Sunday morning" are not a problem either because no-one goes to the church. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugendweihe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugendweihe
- farnsworth 10y ago
  That's interesting, thanks. I've never been to a secular wedding or funeral and know few non-religious people. My comment about plans for wednesday/sunday is just that having church activities automatically twice a week provides something to do without specifically planning. On wednesdays I used to sing, play my instrument in a group, or attend church classes all with friends. Now I drink beer.

ivv 10y ago

This is what gyms have become for many. I remember seeing a graph showing the decline in church attendance coinciding with the rise in gym memberships.

farnsworth 10y ago
I think that gyms can scratch a certain itch in that arena, but aren't nearly as comprehensive as what a church provides. Also I hoped for that when I started at a small yoga studio, but nobody really talked to anybody else there, as far as I saw, and I didn't make any lasting connections.
- ldarcyftw 10y ago
  A small yoga/acro studio I attended had after-class snacks and Saturday/Sunday activities. It depends on the owner level of involvement I assume.

gaius 10y ago

There was an atheist church in London but it fell apart over internal "more-atheist-than-thou" squabbles in a matter of weeks. Meanwhile there are ordinary churches in London that are centuries old...

f_allwein 10y ago
There is still the Sunady Assembly, in London and other places: http://www.sundayassembly.com http://www.sundayassembly.com
794CD01 10y ago
Plenty of religions have fallen apart due to internal squabbling too, often very violently. There's a lot of survivorship bias here.

vertex-four 10y ago

Interestingly, and rather off-topic, many LGBTQ+ people, polyamorous people, and people who generally don't fit into what society prescribes, have to deal with all of these questions right now anyway - along with even more questions like "what is a relationship?" or "how do I present myself at work?". I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer to many of these questions, I don't think there can be.

Taek 10y ago
That's sort of the point of a church. It gives you frameworks did answering those questions and a community of people of all ages to compare notes with. Some religious institutions provide strict, rigid answers, and others are more flexible. Most I would say have fallen at least somewhat behind the times, especially as modern society finds it more difficult to accept that God exists.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  Sure, but the fact of the matter is that any framework will only possibly apply to some subset of the population.

zmb_ 10y ago

It's not like the various Christian churches invented those frameworks from scratch either. They are assimilated and developed from existing practices. The church has no monopoly over these practices. The secular community can take -- and has taken -- these practices and develop them into a secular framework. For example, my wedding, and those of most of my friends, were secular. They were very much similar to the religious weddings in my culture, but the official part was done in front of a judge instead of a priest.

icebraining 10y ago

Boy Scouts is hardly secular In my (European) country, we have two groups of Scouts, one aligned with the Catholic Church, and one secular. It seems some people are trying to do the same in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigators_USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigators_USA

jacalata 10y ago

Unitarian Univeraalists are exactly this, as far as I understand it: http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles

brightsize 10y ago
I was going to mention the UUs as well. Here in Spokane we've a sizable UU "church", and its leader is a self-proclaimed atheist. They have a very large physical facility and there's always something going on. http://uuspokane.org/WP2/ http://uuspokane.org/WP2/ A somewhat similar organization: http://www.unity.org/ http://www.unity.org/ It's based just outside of KC at Unity Village and I can highly recommend a visit if you're in the area. The site is beautiful and an incredibly peaceful place. I'm an atheist so I can't speak for any of the religious or quasi-religious beliefs of the two entities but they definitely have an established social infrastructure.
- farnsworth 10y ago
  I experimented with a couple UU churches and was disappointed. They seemed to attract a lot of people with a "spirituality" that didn't fit with what I wanted. Maybe just the places I tried. Wiccans, people greeting at the door with "the sky-mother is smiling upon us today!", etc. All nice people though. It made me ask, would I want a group to be totally accepting in that you can believe whatever you want, or a group with a little more active skepticism?
  - colanderman 10y ago
    The thing is, those are the people you're looking for! The ones who reject (or are rejected by) mainstream religion, but desire a welcoming community atmosphere, they end up at UU churches. If you find Wiccans and sky-children there, that's because they're present in your community, and sought out the church for probably roughly the same reasons as you. Who better to form a community with than nice people with whom you might not otherwise interact?

Taek 10y ago

Definitely agree on this one, to such an extent that I don't expect someone who's never been a part of a church community to understand that they are missing. Sort of affirmed by the guy who thinks a public gym is an approximate replacement. Church is a place where they help you figure out how to live your life. You learn about family. You learn about money. You learn about grief and loss. You share your own insecurities and learn about the insecurities of the others in your community. We would sit down once a week for about 90 minutes in a group of ~7 and try to apply lessons (moral, financial, social, etc.) to our lives. I'd love to see an analog spring up in the tech community.

bluedino 10y ago

>> What are your standing plans for Wednesday night and Sunday morning? Whatever the hell I feel like doing. It's nice not having to attend service two days a week (and twice on one of those days) Churches can be full of the most hypocritical, judgemental, and gossipy people.

justinkramp 10y ago
"Churches can be full of the most hypocritical, judgemental, and gossipy people." So in other words, humans. They are full of humans.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  most hypocritical, judgemental, and gossipy people i.e, humans with those attributes more than the average human

MichaelGG 10y ago

I'm quite against religion but agree somewhat. But secular weddings? I've not been to a whole lot of weddings, but the secular ones have been qualitatively better. The ceremony seems planned around the actual people wanting to express their love and commitment, not the (generally boring) rites of people going before a god. A sermon or mass seems just so out of place. Or maybe it's just Christian-type ones that get it wrong. The secular weddings had a feeling that every minute was purposeful, that there wasn't any going through ceremony to "get to the good stuff".

farnsworth 10y ago
If you're religious, then the ceremony is the "good stuff". It's meaningful. Your friends, siblings, parents, their parents, and their parents probably were married to a similar ceremony. It's about community, not individualism.

GunboatDiplomat 10y ago

>Boy Scouts is hardly secular Scouts is pretty secular around here. At least my troop was. Never a mention of religion, really.

majewsky 10y ago

> What's a secular wedding? A secular funeral? How do your kids get involved in the community outside of the public school system (Boy Scouts is hardly secular) and how do you celebrate their coming of age? What are your standing plans for Wednesday night and Sunday morning? This sounds like you live in a region where the majority of people are religious. I live in East Germany, where the majority of people don't belong to any church. Consequently, all of the things that you mentioned exist here: * A secular wedding consists of a ceremony wherein a state-appointed official solemnizes the marriage (basically like the wedding service without the prayers and the singing), followed by the usual reception. * A secular funeral is basically the same, a funeral service without the religious parts. The last time I attended a funeral, I was 4 years old, so I cannot comment on this, but I imagine that a secular funeral would focus more on the history of the person to remember, rather than on the religious interpretation of the event. * There is a secular coming-of-age ceremony called Jugendweihe [1]. * There are clubs etc. that organize activities for children, they're just secular. * "Standing plans for Wednesday ngiht and Sunday morning" are not a problem either because no-one goes to the church. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugendweihe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugendweihe

farnsworth 10y ago
That's interesting, thanks. I've never been to a secular wedding or funeral and know few non-religious people. My comment about plans for wednesday/sunday is just that having church activities automatically twice a week provides something to do without specifically planning. On wednesdays I used to sing, play my instrument in a group, or attend church classes all with friends. Now I drink beer.